Light /Medium /Heavy in Wvw 13% dmg reduction matter! — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Light /Medium /Heavy in Wvw 13% dmg reduction matter!

Skorpion.4850Skorpion.4850 Member ✭✭
edited January 9, 2020 in WvW

It's pointed elsewhere (pvp forum), what's t the difference in armor class if everyone has the same power output beyond the logic of glass cannon.

When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

I'm not asking to lower the damage of heavy class since the Big Numbers meta but I'm demanding at least to have same treatment damage reduction wise

Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    PvP doesnt have anywhere near the defensive stats of WvW - you have to choose between toughness or vitality, or being able to do damage.

    Also if you cant lead on light, well then dont. Its not the armor thats stopping them - its class design.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Honestly you can lead on any class, so long as you aren’t insta cappo’d because your Zerg depends on you just being alive. I’ve seen mesmers and necros lead zergs

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    I enjoyed much more the mesmer leading with portal teleport inside enemy blob then the boring firebrand route ones.

    And since I play to enjoy I usually lead on tempest minstrel and again:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    PvP doesnt have anywhere near the defensive stats of WvW .

    the enemy aren't anywhere near the number of 5 that you use to front in pvp. 13% more damage reduction really matter when you push against 15+people. You will be focused covering your squad for X time before you blow them or be blown up.

    If you like infinite kiting, even when you can push and survive, where you play just to not die and be good killing enemy one by one rather than great fun in crowds then anyone should ask why does he play?
    My answer is emotions. The time where the game stops to give me emotions, is a dead game for me.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Honestly you can lead on any class, so long as you aren’t insta cappo’d because your Zerg depends on you just being alive. I’ve seen mesmers and necros lead zergs

    I have too, but it's not ideal and it puts you at risk of being ping ponged with crowd control effects.

    Imagine this: what is worse?

    • The chance of being 1 shot or downed (which is slightly lower on high armor classes by factor of 13% damage reduction)
    • or getting immobed/knocked-back/feared/slowed/etc. via crowd control effect which to great extent only 1 class (or rather effect) can counter properly: stability.

    As far as survival, elementalists have a ton of survival options and abilities which would make them tanky enough to rival almost warriors. TTK is not that big an issue compared to access to stability and is still compensated by a lot of class abilities, especially when commanding and being able to run a personal setup.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you are wearing a stat set with toughness then the Gap in % damage reduction between armor class weights will approach zero with the more armor rating you get. I would presume it's more about build and play skill above 3k armor regarding zerg survivability.

    Armor classes only truly matter for glass cannons.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    Cant lead without stability.
    Or
    Trying to lead group that doesn't even provide it's driver with stability.

    The hardest-to-kill drivers I know do so on Mesmer. Look to other factors than class balance.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    It's pointed elsewhere (pvp forum), what's t the difference in armor class if everyone has the same power output beyond the logic of glass cannon.

    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    I'm not asking to lower the damage of heavy class since the Big Numbers meta but I'm demanding at least to have same treatment damage reduction wise

    If that's going to happen, can we also look at the HP pools for the different classes, too please? I mean, why are warriors HEAVILY armoured, with MAX health AND potential for high DPS, while guardian is LOW health?

    I bet everybody forgot that was a thing. /sigh

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Someone should let all the mesmer commanders know it is "unfeasible" to lead on mesmer...

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Someone should let all the mesmer commanders know it is "unfeasible" to lead on mesmer...

    I've been exceptionally active the last 3/4 year in WvW. Made close and even above 2k WvW ranks in less than a year. I have not seen a single mesmer commander, neither on my servers side, nor the opponent servers.

    So all those mesmer commanders you are talking about, I haven't seen them. Not even during off hours or unserious matchups, definitely not during prime time or with known commanders.

    What I have seen is firebrands. Both in open public zergs, closed public zergs with required voice, internal guild raids and GvG.

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Someone should let all the mesmer commanders know it is "unfeasible" to lead on mesmer...

    I've been exceptionally active the last 3/4 year in WvW. Made close and even above 2k WvW ranks in less than a year. I have not seen a single mesmer commander, neither on my servers side, nor the opponent servers.

    So all those mesmer commanders you are talking about, I haven't seen them. Not even during off hours or unserious matchups, definitely not during prime time or with known commanders.

    What I have seen is firebrands. Both in open public zergs, closed public zergs with required voice, internal guild raids and GvG.

    Can't speak to EU but FA BG TC JQ BP all had drivers that used mesmer. Firebrand is strong and a fine driving class but to say other classes can't because of the armor is nonsense.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Someone should let all the mesmer commanders know it is "unfeasible" to lead on mesmer...

    I've been exceptionally active the last 3/4 year in WvW. Made close and even above 2k WvW ranks in less than a year. I have not seen a single mesmer commander, neither on my servers side, nor the opponent servers.

    So all those mesmer commanders you are talking about, I haven't seen them. Not even during off hours or unserious matchups, definitely not during prime time or with known commanders.

    What I have seen is firebrands. Both in open public zergs, closed public zergs with required voice, internal guild raids and GvG.

    Can't speak to EU but FA BG TC JQ BP all had drivers that used mesmer. Firebrand is strong and a fine driving class but to say other classes can't because of the armor is nonsense.

    Then re-read what I wrote since since I never 1nce mentioned armor as main reason for guardians seeing the most play (hence disageeing that the differenc between light and heavy is a main issue).

    I might have mentioned the access to stability though which has becomes both increasingly necessary as well as heavily stacked on guardian.

    Yes, I too remember the times where warriors, elementalists or mesmers would lead in WvW. That was mostly pre PoF though.

    Edit: mixed up HoT and PoF (went into more detail but cut it short) fixed

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Someone should let all the mesmer commanders know it is "unfeasible" to lead on mesmer...

    I've been exceptionally active the last 3/4 year in WvW. Made close and even above 2k WvW ranks in less than a year. I have not seen a single mesmer commander, neither on my servers side, nor the opponent servers.

    So all those mesmer commanders you are talking about, I haven't seen them. Not even during off hours or unserious matchups, definitely not during prime time or with known commanders.

    What I have seen is firebrands. Both in open public zergs, closed public zergs with required voice, internal guild raids and GvG.

    Can't speak to EU but FA BG TC JQ BP all had drivers that used mesmer. Firebrand is strong and a fine driving class but to say other classes can't because of the armor is nonsense.

    Then re-read what I wrote since since I never 1nce mentioned armor as main reason for guardians seeing the most play (hence disageeing that the differenc between light and heavy is a main issue).

    I might have mentioned the access to stability though which has becomes both increasingly necessary as well as heavily stacked on guardian.

    Yes, I too remember the times where warriors, elementalists or mesmers would lead in WvW. That was mostly pre HoT though.

    "The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:"

    What am I miss reading?

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • hugeboss.5432hugeboss.5432 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    I think those numbers / calculations are incorrect. It's not 13%, but more like 6,5% extra dmg reduction from Light to Heavy (from the raw armor defense stat). [Been years since i looked over the calc for that, so perhaps i'm wrong. But the wiki wasnt always correctly updated either, and even sometimes wrong].

    But those gaps decreases when you increase more points into defense / toughness above the standard values. DMG reduction efficiency requires more points the higher it is to keep yielding another "+1% direct dmg reduction". And after a while u prolly noticed u dont even feel any difference with an extra 100 armor anymore.

    Also, lighter armor classes usually have other features to compensate their lower defensive armor type. In PvE & WvW where you can mix & match attributes alot more, every single class can be a decent tank in raw defensive armor attributes. We even had elementalists / tempest commanders on BG without much hassle. Good commanders puts themselves in a subparty with the needed/fav support classes to aid him survive :) (that alone usually does the trick.. but depends on wut u have to work with ofc).

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    [Respect Ur Opponents, We All Provide Eachothers Fun]
    Blackgate Since Season 1

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    It's pointed elsewhere (pvp forum), what's t the difference in armor class if everyone has the same power output beyond the logic of glass cannon.

    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    I'm not asking to lower the damage of heavy class since the Big Numbers meta but I'm demanding at least to have same treatment damage reduction wise

    Just from a pure dps perspective, you have figured out something that Anet hasn't yet. The problem they ran into, was they kitten removed the trinity, but left armor weights in the game. There really isn't a way for them to fix it at this point. Soo many things are broken that just can't be balanced anymore.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Fish.2769Fish.2769 Member ✭✭✭

    I've seen Mesmers lead rarely on EU over the years, i've seen more Necro Commanders over the same years and the odd Engi Commander since they become heal/cleanse bots.

    The lack of access to Stability argument is pretty dire since every class has access to Stability (or 2) in some form/trait/skill and the lack of usually comes from not having enough Firebrands or Guardians for that matter since they've always been the backbone of zergs along with Necros since launch.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Mesmer commanders are still very common to this day. I still lead on elementalist and do fine. One of the best commanders I know leads on a necro and does fine.

    Just because firebrand is great for stability doesn't mean that the commander needs to be a firebrand, go get a guildie to play firebrand.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:

    • Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage.

    Gone are the times where you would lead on warrior, mesmer or elementalist. Stability is the game and only guardian has access to it reasonably. That is absolutely hitpoint or armor unrelated.

    Someone should let all the mesmer commanders know it is "unfeasible" to lead on mesmer...

    I've been exceptionally active the last 3/4 year in WvW. Made close and even above 2k WvW ranks in less than a year. I have not seen a single mesmer commander, neither on my servers side, nor the opponent servers.

    So all those mesmer commanders you are talking about, I haven't seen them. Not even during off hours or unserious matchups, definitely not during prime time or with known commanders.

    What I have seen is firebrands. Both in open public zergs, closed public zergs with required voice, internal guild raids and GvG.

    Can't speak to EU but FA BG TC JQ BP all had drivers that used mesmer. Firebrand is strong and a fine driving class but to say other classes can't because of the armor is nonsense.

    Then re-read what I wrote since since I never 1nce mentioned armor as main reason for guardians seeing the most play (hence disageeing that the differenc between light and heavy is a main issue).

    I might have mentioned the access to stability though which has becomes both increasingly necessary as well as heavily stacked on guardian.

    Yes, I too remember the times where warriors, elementalists or mesmers would lead in WvW. That was mostly pre HoT though.

    "The only reason why it is unfeasible to lead on a light class (and medium class) is:"

    What am I miss reading?

    The part after the two dots....

    Here:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Firebrand has all the stability in the world. Not leading on one currently puts you and your squad at a significant disadvantage

    If you had read all of that in context, you would have deduced that I disagree that armor is a main factor, which is the topic at hand, and rather think that stability and class abilities are a far more significant issue.

  • @hugeboss.5432 said:
    I think those numbers / calculations are incorrect. It's not 13%, but more like 6,5% extra dmg reduction from Light to Heavy (from the raw armor defense stat). [Been years since i looked over the calc for that, so perhaps i'm wrong. But the wiki wasnt always correctly updated either, and even sometimes wrong].

    .. Copying and past what it s calculated in pvp forum thread..

    If we assume a maximum power from amulett: 1,200 (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Build)
    If we assume average weapon strength of 900 (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_Strength)
    If we assume a weapon damage coefficient of 1.0
    If we use the given formula for power damage:
    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

    If we use the exotic defense values for each weight provided on https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor

    The results are as follows against a target with base 1,000 toughness:
    Light armor is hit for 549
    Medium armor is hit for 509
    Heavy armor is hit for 475

    Which constitutes a damage difference of around 13% between light and heavy armor. That is only against power, maximum glasscanon versus classcanon and without taking into account any class abilities which might allow more offensive or defensive setups in stats.

  • Idk, Personally I run my minstrel mirage as a tag and have been doing it for over a year now... Iam on NSP and I have a lot more control of my zerg than ever as a FB. Also, Iam a lot more tankier on my Mesmer than my FB ever was. The amount of mitigation you have is insane for a minstrel mirage. Armor class doesn’t matter anymore if your a skilled player vs. a FB just clicking skills on engage blindly.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

    You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

    cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

    Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    Over the years, there have been many player who used a light/medium class to command.

    Skill is way more important then a few % more armor.

    Also every commander on the planet has atleast 1 additional support in his group.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

    You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

    cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

    Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

    Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

    Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

    Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have seen people lead with a healer bunker Tempest so.... it's not impossible.

    Problem is yur pure utility and do no damage.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    I have seen people lead with a healer bunker Tempest so.... it's not impossible.

    Problem is yur pure utility and do no damage.

    you don't do meaningful damage, but you definitely do enough damage to get credit for things.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Skorpion.4850 said:
    It's pointed elsewhere (pvp forum), what's t the difference in armor class if everyone has the same power output beyond the logic of glass cannon.

    When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

    I'm not asking to lower the damage of heavy class since the Big Numbers meta but I'm demanding at least to have same treatment damage reduction wise

    If that's going to happen, can we also look at the HP pools for the different classes, too please? I mean, why are warriors HEAVILY armoured, with MAX health AND potential for high DPS, while guardian is LOW health?

    I bet everybody forgot that was a thing. /sigh

    I bet you also forgot that warrior is a full melee class with not as much dmg mitigation and sustain as guard, while guard has viable ranged options.
    If you put them on the same healthpool you would create an unkillable monster.

    And dont come with the "but warrior op reee" argument. They have basically not protection, no good regeneration, no blinds, no aegis and mostly rely on very small heals over time, that are not good to heal back from bursts.

    If you give guard those free vita stats, he can spend all those points into some other stat, that would just make him more op than he already is.

    Same goes for other classes, why gives mesmer or thief for example the same base defensive stats as warrior, when they have so many evades, good range options ontop of stealth?

    Imagine a thief with plate and high health, good luck killing that thing.

    Eles are already flamed in the pvp forum for being too hard to kill, imagine them with ~23k health and heavy armor, yikes.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

    You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

    cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

    Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

    Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

    Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

    Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

    All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

    How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

    You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

    cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

    Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

    Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

    Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

    Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

    All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

    I've already explained how the mantras are not the only skills in a firebrands arsenal. Also only applies if you can absolutely not aboutface your squad AND no one is walking inside your hitbox.

    How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

    So we are now comparing firebrand driver to other classes+firebrand?

    I was keeping it simple (assuming any lead had an extra firebrand at their disposal) but if you want I can explain to you how literally every other squad based class sacrifices more than firebrand (except mesmer who sacrifices group support for utility when leading), most of all warrior who directly benefits from being able to both better engage, harass and cleave when not tag.

    EDIT:
    It comes down to 3 points:
    A.) firebrand support is needed in every group in the current meta (due to necessity of stability) (this is the big one)
    B.) firebrand support's job is inside the squad and at the front-line (unlike say warrior who is better of free roaming)
    C.) firebrand loses directional advantage with mantras IF he can't aboutface and no one is on tag. The remainder of his kit still allows him to operate at full capacity those skills are either meant for frontal use (staff line, F1-3, axe 3, etc) or are targeted around the character (shouts, essential tome skills, blasts, etc)

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

    You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

    cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

    Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

    Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

    Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

    Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

    All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

    I've already explained how the mantras are not the only skills in a firebrands arsenal. Also only applies if you can absolutely not aboutface your squad AND no one is walking inside your hitbox.

    How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

    So we are now comparing firebrand driver to other classes+firebrand?

    I was keeping it simple (assuming any lead had an extra firebrand at their disposal) but if you want I can explain to you how literally every other squad based class sacrifices more than firebrand (except mesmer who sacrifices group support for utility when leading), most of all warrior who directly benefits from being able to both better engage, harass and cleave when not tag.

    EDIT:
    It comes down to 3 points:
    A.) firebrand support is needed in every group in the current meta (due to necessity of stability) (this is the big one)
    B.) firebrand support's job is inside the squad and at the front-line (unlike say warrior who is better of free roaming)
    C.) firebrand loses directional advantage with mantras IF he can't aboutface and no one is on tag. The remainder of his kit still allows him to operate at full capacity those skills are either meant for frontal use (staff line, F1-3, axe 3, etc) or are targeted around the character (shouts, essential tome skills, blasts, etc)

    Mmmmkay, clearly you don't understand. So you think it's necessary to have 2 fbs in the tag party when really you just need 1 fb dedicated to support. If you were able to drive and support your party effectively on fb you wouldn't need the second one. Do you have any videos of a fb tag that's both driving well and using about face to focus on support?

    Why wouldn't you have a fb in your party if you're driving? I'm saying there are better options to drive on so you can focus on the fight itself instead of focusing on the fight+supporting the people behind you with some absurd about face shenanigans.

    Still waiting to hear how you're applying stab to 20 people?

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer commander is superior in basically all situations to a FB except in instances where you are pug tagging and you being a FB can be the difference between having a firebrand in the squad or not.

    Mesmer adds several high impact utility skills you generally don't want to add an extra layer of communication to to get utilized. (I'm veiling here, vs Can I get a veil here?) has all the survivability you need in terms of invulns/evades, and a commander generally degrades their play by about 25-50% depending on their experience because of the split focus. This makes a class with a small set of high impact skills that you typically don't want to bring in the squad normally ideal compared to something like firebrand where subpar play can cost party members.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

    Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

    Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

    If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

    Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

    You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

    cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

    Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

    Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

    Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

    Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

    All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

    I've already explained how the mantras are not the only skills in a firebrands arsenal. Also only applies if you can absolutely not aboutface your squad AND no one is walking inside your hitbox.

    How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

    So we are now comparing firebrand driver to other classes+firebrand?

    I was keeping it simple (assuming any lead had an extra firebrand at their disposal) but if you want I can explain to you how literally every other squad based class sacrifices more than firebrand (except mesmer who sacrifices group support for utility when leading), most of all warrior who directly benefits from being able to both better engage, harass and cleave when not tag.

    EDIT:
    It comes down to 3 points:
    A.) firebrand support is needed in every group in the current meta (due to necessity of stability) (this is the big one)
    B.) firebrand support's job is inside the squad and at the front-line (unlike say warrior who is better of free roaming)
    C.) firebrand loses directional advantage with mantras IF he can't aboutface and no one is on tag. The remainder of his kit still allows him to operate at full capacity those skills are either meant for frontal use (staff line, F1-3, axe 3, etc) or are targeted around the character (shouts, essential tome skills, blasts, etc)

    Mmmmkay, clearly you don't understand. So you think it's necessary to have 2 fbs in the tag party when really you just need 1 fb dedicated to support. If you were able to drive and support your party effectively on fb you wouldn't need the second one. Do you have any videos of a fb tag that's both driving well and using about face to focus on support?

    Why wouldn't you have a fb in your party if you're driving? I'm saying there are better options to drive on so you can focus on the fight itself instead of focusing on the fight+supporting the people behind you with some absurd about face shenanigans.

    Still waiting to hear how you're applying stab to 20 people?

    You know what, sure, what ever you say. If you don't care to read what I wrote, put in 1 minute of consideration as to what was meant and how it could affect the team composition, I don't care for this argument. You are free to lead on what ever class you want to lead with. The premise of the topic was that armor is a significant factor for which classes can lead WvW squads, I disagreed and explained why. Feel free to lead on any class you want, meanwhile the vast majority of WvW leads I know lead on Firebrand when fights get difficult, and there is a reason for that.