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Vallun.2071

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

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@Vallun.2071 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:Buff Swipe to 900 Range

Yeah, no. If anything should be happening to Swipe it should be it loses Unblockable so taking daredevil is an actual trade off, rather than this wishy washy "We know thieves will get TOO mad if it loses range so let's give them Unblockable on a skill that is already one of the most impactful and least counterplayable things in the game."

You realize that core thieves have 1200 range steal right? Is the issue that swipe has unblockable or that it can have range? Also the trade off to daredevil is already exhaustion, if you want to make that argument. The only thing you have an issue with is that steal gives plasma, lets be honest youre a biased mesmer main. I'd be fine with a plasma nerf too but tbh its sort of irrelevant now that thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore.

Just as I thought. Some of the suggested changes won't make it any more fun to play pvp modes. Some might make it even worse.

But exhaustion is definitely not a trade-off for choosing to play Daredevil.The exhaustion is a trade-off to a super strong Condi cleanse + boon application on Daredevil, that was op without it.

The trade-off for being Daredevil is definitely small range swipe.

I'd also agree, that removing the unblockable part of swipe would be a good thing.

If thief had no other mobility skill, we could talk about it. But not at the current state.

As you said, steal is 1200 without any casttime or animation.People cried about shades, that they weren't able to see, if shades attack, so a delay got introduced. As if a red circle on the ground wasn't enough.

But thief has stealth attacks with no tell, and steal with no tell.

I'm totally on @mortrialus.3062 site here.

@Vallun.2071 said:@"Sigmoid.7082" said:

You compare necromancer doom to thief's entire class mechanic, have you forgotten that necros have an entire life bar and 4 other skills while in shroud? Don't manipulate your comparison to ignore the original point. Thieves get a good combo enabler as their singular class mechanic. Core shroud's doom is an instant cast fear that if it isnt counterplayed can result in a player being 100-0 killed which is only a small part of their classes mechanic.

Great, I'd gladly give away the "second health bar" to get mobility, evade frames and blocks on utility and weapon skills.you seem to forget, that necro has exactly 2 dodges as defense, and has to take all the rest of things thrown at it with it's face.Also you say that doom has no tell? Well, there is a black aura around the necromancer... That should be enough of a tell. Also it can be countered by stability, Condi cleanse and resistance. There's more than enough counterplay to it.

If that's not enough I want to mention thiefs versions of steal again. That on top of it also doesn't need los

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Honestly swipe for DD is a lazy cop out. If anet wanted DD to be a brawler spec the new mechanic shouldn't even have been a steal/tele. F1 could have been a damage reducing skill, f2 bandits defense and a different utility skill in place of bandits defense and f3 a unique attack skill for each main hand weapon similar to warriors idea but on CD with no resource mechanic. Not just another steal.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

edit for you, this is mesmer trait on the same level as lead attacks.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Misdirectionand this is lead attacks.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks

just think about these 2 traits.oh and do make sure to FIND a trait thats as good as lead attacks for me like I asked, pretty please.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

Executioner, no quarter is a better damage trait than lead attacks, revealed training gives me more on my dp build as I'm invisible 90% of the time, preparedness is a better over all trait, man I just realized I could care less about lead attacks as it is now since its nerfed it's actually probably one of the worst damage traits now lol. Literally last reason I'd take trickery line so..lol yeah 15 max damage but having to use all ur attack resourse to get it is garbage and not great as u think and 15% decrease cd on steal when soh gives enough to make steal a decent cd anyway let alone swipe reduction. U trolling or serious cuz it should actually be reverted to un nerfed state so its useful again.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

Executioner, no quarter is a better damage trait than lead attacks, revealed training gives me more on my dp build as I'm invisible 90% of the time, preparedness is a better over all trait, man I just realized I could care less about lead attacks as it is now since its nerfed it's actually probably one of the worst damage traits now lol. Literally last reason I'd take trickery line so..lol yeah 15 max damage but having to use all ur attack resourse to get it is garbage and not great as u think and 15% decrease cd on steal when soh gives enough to make steal a decent cd anyway let alone swipe reduction. U trolling or serious cuz it should actually be reverted to un nerfed state so its useful again.

big lol, what makes you think that you have to get all 15% to make it worthwhile?even 5% damage buff is huge, and realistically you should always have 5%+ bonus if not more.No Quarter provides WAY less damage AND it needs you to land a crit for it to work in the first place.executioner is 20% buff under 50% targets, so you get 20% dmg half the time if not less. its worse too.On top of being GRANDMASTER traits.

EDITNo Quarter's ferocity is 11% damage boost ( less then lead attacks ). Assumin1 you have no other ferocity, if you have any other ferocity source its less and less effective2 you always crit, if you dont crit, it does nothing

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

Executioner, no quarter is a better damage trait than lead attacks, revealed training gives me more on my dp build as I'm invisible 90% of the time, preparedness is a better over all trait, man I just realized I could care less about lead attacks as it is now since its nerfed it's actually probably one of the worst damage traits now lol. Literally last reason I'd take trickery line so..lol yeah 15 max damage but having to use all ur attack resourse to get it is garbage and not great as u think and 15% decrease cd on steal when soh gives enough to make steal a decent cd anyway let alone swipe reduction. U trolling or serious cuz it should actually be reverted to un nerfed state so its useful again.

big lol, what makes you think that you have to get all 15% to make it worthwhile?even 5% damage buff is huge, and realistically you should always have 5%+ bonus if not more.No Quarter provides WAY less damage AND it needs you to land a crit for it to work in the first place.executioner is 20% buff under 50% targets, so you get 20% dmg half the time if not less. its worse too.On top of being GRANDMASTER traits.

EDITNo Quarter's ferocity is 11% damage boost ( less then lead attacks ). Assumin1 you have no other ferocity, if you have any other ferocity source its less and less effective2 you always crit, if you dont crit, it does nothing

Sigh! I've played thief 5 yrs and ur a mesmer player telling me what thief traits are better. Not replying anymore cuz ur reply's are far from how I see things as a actual thief player.I'd rather 20 more dps at opponent-50 hp as my back stabs land them at that almost always. A extra 5 or even 10 at times if I've spent enough ini isnt that significant, also I can port and do that 20 percent or use that power from revealed training without having to be in combat first as lead attacks used to be. Lead attacks is just a ok trait how it is now. Play the class a bit maybe. Literally all u do is complain about thief most times I see ur name.As a thief player ive never been like gee I'm so glad I have lead attacks traited lol. swindlers, preparedness, bountiful theft, soh, dont stop and instant reflexes are all more significant traits than lead attacks and theres more on thief alone that are better but could care less about a mesmers informed and surely educated thru actually playing the class opinion, but I'm glad u can read the tool tips and know the class in and out lol. Therea a reason alot of actual thief players complained when lead attacks was nerfed and most thief's feel is weak in a fight now and want it it reverted to original state. And here u are a mesmer player stating it's the strongest trait in the game lmao.See things how u want :)

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

Executioner, no quarter is a better damage trait than lead attacks, revealed training gives me more on my dp build as I'm invisible 90% of the time, preparedness is a better over all trait, man I just realized I could care less about lead attacks as it is now since its nerfed it's actually probably one of the worst damage traits now lol. Literally last reason I'd take trickery line so..lol yeah 15 max damage but having to use all ur attack resourse to get it is garbage and not great as u think and 15% decrease cd on steal when soh gives enough to make steal a decent cd anyway let alone swipe reduction. U trolling or serious cuz it should actually be reverted to un nerfed state so its useful again.

big lol, what makes you think that you have to get all 15% to make it worthwhile?even 5% damage buff is huge, and realistically you should always have 5%+ bonus if not more.No Quarter provides WAY less damage AND it needs you to land a crit for it to work in the first place.executioner is 20% buff under 50% targets, so you get 20% dmg half the time if not less. its worse too.On top of being GRANDMASTER traits.

EDITNo Quarter's ferocity is 11% damage boost ( less then lead attacks ). Assumin1 you have no other ferocity, if you have any other ferocity source its less and less effective2 you always crit, if you dont crit, it does nothing

Sigh! I've played thief 5 yrs and ur a mesmer player telling me what thief traits are better. Not replying anymore cuz ur reply's are far from how I see things as a actual thief player.I'd rather 20 more dps at opponent-50 hp as my back stabs land them at that almost always. A extra 5 or even 10 at times if I've spent enough ini isnt that significant, also I can port and do that 20 percent or use that power from revealed training without having to be in combat first as lead attacks used to be. Lead attacks is just a ok trait how it is now. Play the class a bit maybe. Literally all u do is complain about thief most times I see ur name.As a thief player ive never been like gee I'm so glad I have lead attacks traited lol. swindlers, preparedness, bountiful theft, soh, dont stop and instant reflexes are all more significant traits than lead attacks and theres more on thief alone that are better but could care less about a mesmers informed and surely educated thru actually playing the class opinion, but I'm glad u can read the tool tips and know the class in and out lol. Therea a reason alot of actual thief players complained when lead attacks was nerfed and most thief's feel is weak in a fight now and want it it reverted to original state. And here u are a mesmer player stating it's the strongest trait in the game lmao.See things how u want :)

World would be so much better place if people learned to read instead going for the feel. The time you took to play this game is completely irrelevantlead attacks "feelsbad" for you becouse you cant use it to 1shot backstabs without being in combat first, big off.You can go around playing for 5 years improperly and since you refuse to learn you will still play improperly. You dont even realise this traits value becouse its ALWAYS on becouse there is no choice, its always taken. If it was choice between lead attacks and some other trait you would see it picked 90% of the time.

You still have not posted a single trait that is as strong as lead attacks btw, im still waiting for you to do so.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

Executioner, no quarter is a better damage trait than lead attacks, revealed training gives me more on my dp build as I'm invisible 90% of the time, preparedness is a better over all trait, man I just realized I could care less about lead attacks as it is now since its nerfed it's actually probably one of the worst damage traits now lol. Literally last reason I'd take trickery line so..lol yeah 15 max damage but having to use all ur attack resourse to get it is garbage and not great as u think and 15% decrease cd on steal when soh gives enough to make steal a decent cd anyway let alone swipe reduction. U trolling or serious cuz it should actually be reverted to un nerfed state so its useful again.

big lol, what makes you think that you have to get all 15% to make it worthwhile?even 5% damage buff is huge, and realistically you should always have 5%+ bonus if not more.No Quarter provides WAY less damage AND it needs you to land a crit for it to work in the first place.executioner is 20% buff under 50% targets, so you get 20% dmg half the time if not less. its worse too.On top of being GRANDMASTER traits.

EDITNo Quarter's ferocity is 11% damage boost ( less then lead attacks ). Assumin1 you have no other ferocity, if you have any other ferocity source its less and less effective2 you always crit, if you dont crit, it does nothing

Sigh! I've played thief 5 yrs and ur a mesmer player telling me what thief traits are better. Not replying anymore cuz ur reply's are far from how I see things as a actual thief player.I'd rather 20 more dps at opponent-50 hp as my back stabs land them at that almost always. A extra 5 or even 10 at times if I've spent enough ini isnt that significant, also I can port and do that 20 percent or use that power from revealed training without having to be in combat first as lead attacks used to be. Lead attacks is just a ok trait how it is now. Play the class a bit maybe. Literally all u do is complain about thief most times I see ur name.As a thief player ive never been like gee I'm so glad I have lead attacks traited lol. swindlers, preparedness, bountiful theft, soh, dont stop and instant reflexes are all more significant traits than lead attacks and theres more on thief alone that are better but could care less about a mesmers informed and surely educated thru actually playing the class opinion, but I'm glad u can read the tool tips and know the class in and out lol. Therea a reason alot of actual thief players complained when lead attacks was nerfed and most thief's feel is weak in a fight now and want it it reverted to original state. And here u are a mesmer player stating it's the strongest trait in the game lmao.See things how u want :)

World would be so much better place if people learned to read instead going for the feel. The time you took to play this game is completely irrelevantlead attacks "feelsbad" for you becouse you cant use it to 1shot backstabs without being in combat first, big off.You can go around playing for 5 years improperly and since you refuse to learn you will still play improperly. You dont even realise this traits value becouse its ALWAYS on becouse there is no choice, its always taken. If it was choice between lead attacks and some other trait you would see it picked 90% of the time.

You still have not posted a single trait that is as strong as lead attacks btw, im still waiting for you to do so.

I've posted many actually but cool story

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Lead attacks is actually not a great trait anymore so... when u could stack to the full damage before a engagements it was good. As it is now it's a trait that encourages low ini in a fight for the bonus and or encourages thief to abandon its hit and run playstyle just like the DD trait does with endurance which is another resource u try not to use all of in a fight making it as bad. Honestly no offense but u thinking lead attacks being as good as u do seems like an opinion of someone who just reads trait and doesn't actually play the class to see how it actually performs. The recharge on steal isnt that big a deal when everyone uses soh reducing it a significant amount anyway and no one uses trickery line as a damage line for a reason.

I repeat, find similar trait thats close to being as strong as lead attacks, I can wait.most traits provide 5-10% dmg bonuses, not 15 and not while ALSO providing cdr on class mechanic.expecially since its so easy to proc it

Executioner, no quarter is a better damage trait than lead attacks, revealed training gives me more on my dp build as I'm invisible 90% of the time, preparedness is a better over all trait, man I just realized I could care less about lead attacks as it is now since its nerfed it's actually probably one of the worst damage traits now lol. Literally last reason I'd take trickery line so..lol yeah 15 max damage but having to use all ur attack resourse to get it is garbage and not great as u think and 15% decrease cd on steal when soh gives enough to make steal a decent cd anyway let alone swipe reduction. U trolling or serious cuz it should actually be reverted to un nerfed state so its useful again.

big lol, what makes you think that you have to get all 15% to make it worthwhile?even 5% damage buff is huge, and realistically you should always have 5%+ bonus if not more.No Quarter provides WAY less damage AND it needs you to land a crit for it to work in the first place.executioner is 20% buff under 50% targets, so you get 20% dmg half the time if not less. its worse too.On top of being GRANDMASTER traits.

EDITNo Quarter's ferocity is 11% damage boost ( less then lead attacks ). Assumin1 you have no other ferocity, if you have any other ferocity source its less and less effective2 you always crit, if you dont crit, it does nothing

Sigh! I've played thief 5 yrs and ur a mesmer player telling me what thief traits are better. Not replying anymore cuz ur reply's are far from how I see things as a actual thief player.I'd rather 20 more dps at opponent-50 hp as my back stabs land them at that almost always. A extra 5 or even 10 at times if I've spent enough ini isnt that significant, also I can port and do that 20 percent or use that power from revealed training without having to be in combat first as lead attacks used to be. Lead attacks is just a ok trait how it is now. Play the class a bit maybe. Literally all u do is complain about thief most times I see ur name.As a thief player ive never been like gee I'm so glad I have lead attacks traited lol. swindlers, preparedness, bountiful theft, soh, dont stop and instant reflexes are all more significant traits than lead attacks and theres more on thief alone that are better but could care less about a mesmers informed and surely educated thru actually playing the class opinion, but I'm glad u can read the tool tips and know the class in and out lol. Therea a reason alot of actual thief players complained when lead attacks was nerfed and most thief's feel is weak in a fight now and want it it reverted to original state. And here u are a mesmer player stating it's the strongest trait in the game lmao.See things how u want :)

World would be so much better place if people learned to read instead going for the feel. The time you took to play this game is completely irrelevantlead attacks "feelsbad" for you becouse you cant use it to 1shot backstabs without being in combat first, big off.You can go around playing for 5 years improperly and since you refuse to learn you will still play improperly. You dont even realise this traits value becouse its ALWAYS on becouse there is no choice, its always taken. If it was choice between lead attacks and some other trait you would see it picked 90% of the time.

You still have not posted a single trait that is as strong as lead attacks btw, im still waiting for you to do so.

I've posted many actually but cool story

"as strong as lead attacks"all the ones you posted are mathematically inferior.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Clarification - Trickery should have steal rip stability as an auto-acquire trait for the traitline, imo. Trickery is the boon/rip traitline. I wanted to buff Trickery sideways while unhooking people from being forced into Bountiful Theft -> Slight of hand for the juicy interrupt that goes through stab. Steal ripping stab as an auto-acquire trait in Trickery would fix that, but I think it's something powerful enough that it should remain unique to trickery. The goal was to have effectively no change to the current meta build while opening up further options and introducing opportunity cost (in the form of a GM trait that removes wep swap CD, which let's be honest, is long overdue).

Also - partial agree. Thief is...delicate, balance wise. As Vallun said, Steal is important in that it enables a lot of other skills, so when buffing/adding new skills, considering interaction with steal is a must.

Consider, though: baseline, steal looks like https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/664880760636964865/unknown.png this. It's genuinely garbage as a baseline skill.

I'm hoping anet eventually decides to re-allocate some power from steal to other parts of thief's kit.

In other news...

Attacker's Insight: total potential of 225 power and 225 ferocity. Not sure how much damage that translates into. It stacks up slower, but warrior is nowhere near as squishy as thief. Removing boons as a spellbreaker isn't too difficult, either.

Furious Strength: 7% dmg for having furyTwice as Vicious: 5% after CC.(these should probably be 1 trait, and changed to 5% for having fury and 7-10% after a successful CC )

Farsighted: 15% DMG for targets further than 600 range

Laser's Edge: up to 15% (we'll call it an average of 7.5% tho) - this is probably the closest in design to Lead Attacks. Can you get 15% damage bonus from it? Yeah, that's the max. Are you always gonna have 15%? Heck no.

Pretty much reaper's entire kit... (I hyperbolize, but still)

Vicious Laceration: 9% (small ramp up time)

Ferocious Aggression: 7% w/fury

Disclaimer: I despise shiro rev and have no idea how much vuln it puts out, but Devastation -> Targetted Destruction offers 1/2% more dmg per vuln stack. The traitline has 5 stacks of vuln on first hit, sword4 offers 8. Probably weaker in general, but stronger in a group setting.

Fatal frenzy offers a beefy 300 power in zerk mode. I do think the toughtness reduction is too severe, but eh. Also idk how much power -> %dmg.

Now. You need to understand that lead attacks is NOT a 'here's a constant 15% damage modifer, go ham'. Is it a good trait - yeah. is it a well designed trait - yes, actually, since it emphasizes both the weaknesses and the strengths of thief's initiative system. Are a lot of traits numerically inferior to lead attack's MAXIMUM damage bonus? Yes. If lead attack's average contribution to damage was averaged, would it blow other traits out of the water? Eeeh...no. Probably not. It might be a bit better (or worse) depending on how good the thief is at managing stacks. But it definitely isn't a free, constant 15% damage modifier.

Unfortunately, I lack the coding knowledge (and, likely, permission from anet) to figure that out. Still, it's important to note how lead attacks stacks up and wears off as the thief dis/re-engages.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Clarification - Trickery should have steal rip stability as an auto-acquire trait for the traitline, imo. Trickery is the boon/rip traitline. I wanted to buff Trickery sideways while unhooking people from being forced into Bountiful Theft -> Slight of hand for the juicy interrupt that goes through stab. Steal ripping stab as an auto-acquire trait in Trickery would fix that, but I think it's something powerful enough that it should remain unique to trickery. The goal was to have effectively no change to the current meta build while opening up further options and introducing opportunity cost (in the form of a GM trait that removes wep swap CD, which let's be honest, is long overdue).

Also - partial agree. Thief is...delicate, balance wise. As Vallun said, Steal is important in that it enables a lot of other skills, so when buffing/adding new skills, considering interaction with steal is a must.

Consider, though: baseline, steal looks like
this. It's genuinely garbage as a baseline skill.

I'm hoping anet eventually decides to re-allocate some power from steal to other parts of thief's kit.

In other news...

Attacker's Insight: total potential of 225 power and 225 ferocity. Not sure how much damage that translates into. It stacks up slower, but warrior is nowhere near as squishy as thief. Removing boons as a spellbreaker isn't too difficult, either.

Furious Strength: 7% dmg for having furyTwice as Vicious: 5% after CC.(these should probably be 1 trait, and changed to 5% for having fury and 7-10% after a successful CC )

Farsighted: 15% DMG for targets further than 600 range

Laser's Edge: up to 15% (we'll call it an average of 7.5% tho) - this is probably the closest in design to Lead Attacks. Can you get 15% damage bonus from it? Yeah, that's the max. Are you always gonna have 15%? Heck no.

Pretty much reaper's entire kit... (I hyperbolize, but still)

Vicious Laceration: 9% (small ramp up time)

Ferocious Aggression: 7% w/fury

Disclaimer: I despise shiro rev and have no idea how much vuln it puts out, but Devastation -> Targetted Destruction offers 1/2% more dmg per vuln stack. The traitline has 5 stacks of vuln on first hit, sword4 offers 8. Probably weaker in general, but stronger in a group setting.

Fatal frenzy offers a beefy 300 power in zerk mode. I do think the toughtness reduction is too severe, but eh. Also idk how much power -> %dmg.

Now. You need to understand that lead attacks is NOT a 'here's a constant 15% damage modifer, go ham'. Is it a good trait - yeah. is it a well designed trait - yes, actually, since it emphasizes both the weaknesses and the strengths of thief's initiative system. Are a lot of traits numerically inferior to lead attack's MAXIMUM damage bonus? Yes. If lead attack's average contribution to damage was averaged, would it blow other traits out of the water? Eeeh...no. Probably not. It might be a bit better (or worse) depending on how good the thief is at managing stacks. But it definitely isn't a free, constant 15% damage modifier.

Unfortunately, I lack the coding knowledge (and, likely, permission from anet) to figure that out. Still, it's important to note how lead attacks stacks up and wears off as the thief dis/re-engages.

HI and Hello, I know lead attacks isnt perma 15%, with lasting 10s and getting 1 ini/s its mathematically impossible to have it permanently up.OFC there are ways to get extra ini, Roll for Ini, 2 from stealing. and trait that gives ini/evade. but realistically its propably around 8-12 average while peaking at 15 after intense combat for short ammount of time.I looked throught traits and found couple things.9% perma damage boost from rev could technically be on the same level.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception -> is the only trait that overshadows any other damage increasing trait in the game. It provides about 24-30% damage bonus on average, then again its shround only when many others are permanent + it gets hard countered by weakness.

I have an honest idea. Why the heck is steal a 1200 range teleport? Why not separate steal into 2-3 abilities.One as insta shadowstep. One as low casttime boonrip. And one as slow/medium casttime "steal" that gives abilities.Would require major shakeup, but it would make it feel more like "thief" then what steal does now TBH.

  • it would allow more trait options to be viable other then, huzzah steal gives x now + steal CDR becouse base steal is almost useless.

EDITWas wrong in shroud numbersRan some numbers with shroud trait for fun.assuming you have 50% crit chance and no futher ferocity bonuses.its 26,48% damage bonus in shroud.my guess was wrong, I overestimated value of crit chance, this bonus can vary alot depending on weakness/fury/crit chance/ferocity but should be about 24-30%

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Another thing to consider is build and playstyle as I tried explaining. 1st if lead attacks was as it is now only in combat and placed into a warrior traitline or and brawler or dueler traitline that doesn't use a hit and run playstyle then sure it would be great but say on a dp thief build that uses stealth attacks( backstab) etc and hit and run the trait is useless and revealed training, even the odds, hidden killer and executioner are all more impactful than lead attacks would be even before its nerfs but more so now. When u could use ini and stack the damage out of combat it was a great not OP trait. Now with the in combat only and thief's hit and run playstyle it isn't that great.i dont care what numerical equation u though up, if u played the actual class and traits ur arguing about ud kno.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Another thing to consider is build and playstyle as I tried explaining. 1st if lead attacks was as it is now only in combat and placed into a warrior traitline or and brawler or dueler traitline that doesn't use a hit and run playstyle then sure it would be great but say on a dp thief build that uses stealth attacks( backstab) etc and hit and run the trait is useless and revealed training, even the odds, hidden killer and executioner are all more impactful than lead attacks would be even before its nerfs but more so now. When u could use ini and stack the damage out of combat it was a great not OP trait. Now with the in combat only and thief's hit and run playstyle it isn't that great.i dont care what numerical equation u though up, if u played the actual class and traits ur arguing about ud kno.

depends how you look at it, do you actually kill people during first backstab? if yes then its weak for the build.but if not, you use ini to restealth with hops and you have 10s window of extra damage depending on ini you spent.If anything its amazingly designed, making first burst weaker and followups ( when oponent knows you are around ) more impactfull, but if you wait too long you lose the stack.this is design wise, i have no clue if d/p is any good from anything other then mes perspective

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:On another note. OP, I'm curious as to how you would fix thief's other....well, issues.

This video seems to be geared towards trimming the meta in particular - which is fine, as addressing everything else would make the video several hours longer.

However, you bring up 'unfun' and interactability multiple times. I'd like to know your take on some of the deeper issues, for thief in particular. in this case, the heavy, heavy reliance on Trickery, which turns Steal from a 'meh' skill into something class defining, to the point where running without Trickery in spvp just isn't viable...or if you do see a build without it, it's one of those 1-shot setups. Steal varies between meh and kitten amazing with no in between, which is...very alarming class design.

Steal itself is also rather un-interactable - missing Steal or Swipe (I feel the pain of DE's Mark having a cast time...) is either because your opponent got lucky/is an absolute god and evaded/blinded/etc when the thief used Steal, or the thief screwed up and that's on them.

On one hand, it's part of what keeps thief in the meta. On the other, it's basically the poster child for uninteractable, instant cast overloaded skills.

steal doesnt do damage, its the massive stats given by assassin signet that makes the backstab you steal into them do damage. Steal requires no nerfs as ive said many times before because it is a class built around being squishy but faster than those more durable classes. Theres no identity to the class if you change steal and give thief more survivability in return. Also landing steal can be lucky or unlucky at some times, but because the class is so depending on this "burst enabler" it turns the playstyle into a hit and run class, which is fine. It is a high skill class because it cant just trade one for one with any others. Steal is not uninteractive. One shots from stealth are.

I think you misunderstood. To clarify, I'm interested in starting up a discussion on why and how Trickery has become so integral to thief builds for such an extended period of time and how that has impacted steal (which will be fine once assassin signet, stealth, etc are adjusted to some degree). Tbh I can't remember the last time I saw a viable thief build that wasn't Trickery/X/X. Trying to do anything without Trickery results in meme builds.

I'm more concerned as to how thieves can maybe break away from trickery, even a little bit, so that not running trickery doesn't immediately make whatever build you happen to be going for automatically bad.

Steal is just as uninteractive as stealth 1-shots, but isn't quite as impactful. And unlike stealth 1-shots, the class probably wouldn't survive changing steal. Regardless, I think it's an important factor to be aware of in how Trickery has become so vital.

Edit: Swipe def needs to lose the unblockable if it gains range. Plasma probably shouldn't give quickness or resistance - or at the very least, one or the other. Exhaustion isn't DrD's tradeoff, it's attached to one of three GM traits. That said GM trait happens to be meta doesn't immediately elevate exhaustion to that status. I'd love to see a rework to thief stolen skills - they tend either too weak or too strong

Make prepardness baseline and watch the thief builds open up, a lot without trickery.

trickery is good because every trait is good and meaningful.
alone is one of the strongest traits in the game, it can outshine most grandmasters.most % dmg traits are low damage bonus or questionable in how to proc, meanwhile its almost always 100% up.this traitline gives Good damage, CC, cooldown reductions, condi clear and extra ini for anything you would need.Making
wouldnt change anything I dont think.Its the same as dueling for mesmer, you just cant skip it.

Lead attacks strongest trait in game? U serious? Was nerfed and is not that great anymore and most builds thief run that don't run trickery feel slightly starved for ini. If it we're not for the ini more thieves would run CS and DA together with say DD for example but nope cuz again two staff skills mayyybbeee 3 and u literally cant use any weapon attacks on either weapon for few sec meaning death. Ini does have downsides and without prepardness u feel em.

I stay by my statement, find a trait thats as good as lead attacks.@Curennos.9307 I dont like overloading steal, everything is just STEAL STEAL STEAL.I agree that steal should propably rip stab baseline, stolen skills should be reworked too. what the heck is this engi blob even? lol.But I honestly have NO clue how stuff could be added into thief class, ini system is just stupid. you cant add anything to base powers becouse its all spammable.you cant add cool traits becouse they get abused or you have to slap ICDand it just sucks.make cool traits man like this :If you shadowstep near enemy gain damage bonus after striking them 3 times. ( x bonus damage for y secouds )If you shadowstep away from the enemy take reduced damage from 3 attacks ( X% damage redyced for y secouds )I think thief just lacks interactive and clever traits, its all just " steal now does this huzzah! "

Clarification - Trickery should have steal rip stability as an auto-acquire trait for the traitline, imo. Trickery is the boon/rip traitline. I wanted to buff Trickery sideways while unhooking people from being forced into Bountiful Theft -> Slight of hand for the juicy interrupt that goes through stab. Steal ripping stab as an auto-acquire trait in Trickery would fix that, but I think it's something powerful enough that it should remain unique to trickery. The goal was to have effectively no change to the current meta build while opening up further options and introducing opportunity cost (in the form of a GM trait that removes wep swap CD, which let's be honest, is long overdue).

Also - partial agree. Thief is...delicate, balance wise. As Vallun said, Steal is important in that it enables a lot of other skills, so when buffing/adding new skills, considering interaction with steal is a must.

Consider, though: baseline, steal looks like
this. It's genuinely garbage as a baseline skill.

I'm hoping anet eventually decides to re-allocate some power from steal to other parts of thief's kit.

In other news...

Attacker's Insight: total potential of 225 power and 225 ferocity. Not sure how much damage that translates into. It stacks up slower, but warrior is nowhere near as squishy as thief. Removing boons as a spellbreaker isn't too difficult, either.

Furious Strength: 7% dmg for having furyTwice as Vicious: 5% after CC.(these should probably be 1 trait, and changed to 5% for having fury and 7-10% after a successful CC )

Farsighted: 15% DMG for targets further than 600 range

Laser's Edge: up to 15% (we'll call it an average of 7.5% tho) - this is probably the closest in design to Lead Attacks. Can you get 15% damage bonus from it? Yeah, that's the max. Are you always gonna have 15%? Heck no.

Pretty much reaper's entire kit... (I hyperbolize, but still)

Vicious Laceration: 9% (small ramp up time)

Ferocious Aggression: 7% w/fury

Disclaimer: I despise shiro rev and have no idea how much vuln it puts out, but Devastation -> Targetted Destruction offers 1/2% more dmg per vuln stack. The traitline has 5 stacks of vuln on first hit, sword4 offers 8. Probably weaker in general, but stronger in a group setting.

Fatal frenzy offers a beefy 300 power in zerk mode. I do think the toughtness reduction is too severe, but eh. Also idk how much power -> %dmg.

Now. You need to understand that lead attacks is NOT a 'here's a constant 15% damage modifer, go ham'. Is it a good trait - yeah. is it a well designed trait - yes, actually, since it emphasizes both the weaknesses and the strengths of thief's initiative system. Are a lot of traits numerically inferior to lead attack's MAXIMUM damage bonus? Yes. If lead attack's average contribution to damage was averaged, would it blow other traits out of the water? Eeeh...no. Probably not. It might be a bit better (or worse) depending on how good the thief is at managing stacks. But it definitely isn't a free, constant 15% damage modifier.

Unfortunately, I lack the coding knowledge (and, likely, permission from anet) to figure that out. Still, it's important to note how lead attacks stacks up and wears off as the thief dis/re-engages.

HI and Hello, I know lead attacks isnt perma 15%, with lasting 10s and getting 1 ini/s its mathematically impossible to have it permanently up.OFC there are ways to get extra ini, Roll for Ini, 2 from stealing. and trait that gives ini/evade. but realistically its propably around 8-12 average while peaking at 15 after intense combat for short ammount of time.I looked throught traits and found couple things.9% perma damage boost from rev could technically be on the same level.
-> is the only trait that overshadows any other damage increasing trait in the game. It provides about 24-30% damage bonus on average, then again its shround only when many others are permanent + it gets hard countered by weakness.

I have an honest idea. Why the heck is steal a 1200 range teleport? Why not separate steal into 2-3 abilities.One as insta shadowstep. One as low casttime boonrip. And one as slow/medium casttime "steal" that gives abilities.Would require major shakeup, but it would make it feel more like "thief" then what steal does now TBH.
  • it would allow more trait options to be viable other then, huzzah steal gives x now + steal CDR becouse base steal is almost useless.

EDITWas wrong in shroud numbersRan some numbers with shroud trait for fun.assuming you have 50% crit chance and no futher ferocity bonuses.its 26,48% damage bonus in shroud.my guess was wrong, I overestimated value of crit chance, this bonus can vary alot depending on weakness/fury/crit chance/ferocity but should be about 24-30%

Roll for Ini is only run if you take DrD (and sometimes acro) (most people don't take the cleanse traits in acro, but they're there). DrD in particular allows players to run without Signet of Agility, which alongside sword2 port is one of the only cleanses available.

I can't take Roll for Ini on my Deadeye unless the enemy team is pure power, which admittedly CAN happen but then I will be royally screwed over by even the slightest amount of weakness application. Not terribly relevant, but worth mentioning. DrD can still get screwed over by weakness if it doesn't take cleanse signet.

Also, thief rarely gets into a fight will its full 15 ini, what with a combination of having to use said ini to convert into mobility to get to the fight in the first place, waiting for it to regen to full often isn't feasible.

That all said, I find the implications of your 8-12% average guess pretty fair. Considering thief's squishiness compared to other classes and the hit-run playstyle, having a damage modifier that's slightly higher than the norm...well, I think that balances out well enough, especially considering the trait has zero impact on the thief's first strike, and more impact as the fight goes on/thief stays in fight for extended period of time. The trait design now actually runs contrary to...well, thief's entire concept. I realize you answered this on your own in another post, but I wanted to reiterate how 1) Lead attacks is really only slightly stronger than what other classes have, and 2) is amazingly well designed around thief's playstyle, which ultimately justifies the strength of the trait.

DP fell out of favor in part because backstab's damage was no longer enough. It's made a comback in recent seasons, but it basically requires that the thief be running assassin's signet. I think that dp requires an extra 180/500 power to be anywhere near viable to be very...telling, about the state of things.

Anywho. Concerning your suggestion - generally speaking, yes, I am 100% on board with that. People have floated ideas around concerning that sort of thing before. One such good example was adding a shadowstep to thief's f-skills, and then either nerfing shortbow a bit or just leaving it as-is. Or a stealth skill with a similar concept (maybe choosing between stealth and a shadowstep), the gist being that it'd serve to spread out some of the power concentrated in some of the skills that essentially carry thief in some roles, while still leaving the option for a little more if need be - but they'd no longer be locked into x or y.

Having stolen skill aquisition attached to landing a casted skill would justify making them more impactful, too, which I am all for (DE might need a little help tho, depending, since they almost 100% rely on stolen skills for stealth, but that's another story).

It'd be a big mess the start tbh, but beneficial in the long run. And really? I am so. Damn. Tired. Of shortbow. Ugh. Bring it ooooon.

Edit: Actually, you're def on to something here. Too much power crammed into Steal makes it extremely difficult to do anything with the skill across diff elite specs, too.

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Well I actually watched the video a bit more.

My 2 cents:Thief: Mostly agree except for swipe. Swipe is already very good.Warrior: I would just remove the evade of Bulls instead of increasing the CD. the CD is already at 30 which isn't even that low. It just "does too much".Engie: Mostly agreeRanger: Mostly agree. Especially GS4. I have no idea how people think Ranger is "Bad" right now when the class has access to such an amazing skill.Revenant: I agree Rev needs nerfs but not all on Shiro. A lot of the damage potential comes more from the fact that Glint-Herald gives absurd bonuses. So I would split the nerfs up a bit more evenly rather than just gutting Shiro skills.Mesmer: I think Mesmer needs more of a rework than any nerf, but until then hitting arcane thievery may be a good idea. Mostly agree here.

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