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Stealth is completly worthless.


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@kash.9213 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Kneel should be an evade that puts you into kneel/out of kneel.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Kneel should be an evade that puts you into kneel/out of kneel.

I uh. Like your enthusiasm here, but that would be ridiculously overpowered without extensive rebalancing of how kneel works xD

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Kneel should be an evade that puts you into kneel/out of kneel.

I uh. Like your enthusiasm here, but that would be ridiculously overpowered without extensive rebalancing of how kneel works xD

Yeah I know. In a kind world things like Kneel would be an evade to make the transition seamless. I hate clunky mechanics. I can't stand Kill Shot and Flurry for the same reason.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

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@jgeezz.7832 said:Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.Exactly! again rapid fire is a channeling skill (among many others). You can use your dodge to go into stealth. But remember you'll only avoid damage during that evade frame. The time of a ranger casting rapid fire is longer then your dodge moment. Which again is why you will continue getting damage after your dodge from that attack despite being in stealth. So essentially you want to double dodge to avoid this particular attack, or first bait/interrupt/reflect it BEFORE going into stealth.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop without quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop
without
quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

I mean if youre not using Rifle there isnt much point to using DE alltogether. And for Rifle, even with quickness, its much too easy to stop. M7 is better because it lets you sustain your damage for longer while still having burst potential.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop
without
quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

I mean if youre not using Rifle there isnt much point to using DE alltogether. And for Rifle, even with quickness, its much too easy to stop. M7 is better because it lets you sustain your damage for longer while still having burst potential.

You vastly underestimate non-rifle burst. Infiltrator's Strike -> PW is vastly more reliable and to some extent more damage than spamming rifle#2. It's easy to hit max malice with quickness and still have enough left over for a quick weapon swap into a quickness boosted DJ. M7 doesn't help any issue you mentioned, either - it just serves to help where thief is bad, but you should be resetting during those moments anyway.

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@Curennos.9307 said:DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

I'd be happy just to have the jump key or a movement key take you out of Kneel instantly. I can't say how many times I get burst with a LOT of visual clutter when kneeling... I can't even see my Thief many times, so I can't even instantly tell if I got stunned and knocked out of Kneel. But I'm so used to tapping the Kneel key to exit, it's a crapshoot whether or not I'm taking myself out of Kneel or putting myself back into Kneel after I get burst.

P.S. Couldn't Standing and Kneeling be F3 and F4 functions? That way, there would never be confusion about what you're trying to do.

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@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

I'd be happy just to have the jump key or a movement key take you out of Kneel instantly. I can't say how many times I get burst with a LOT of visual clutter when kneeling... I can't even see my Thief many times, so I can't even instantly tell if I got stunned and knocked out of Kneel. But I'm so used to tapping the Kneel key to exit, it's a crapshoot whether or not I'm taking myself out of Kneel or putting myself back into Kneel after I get burst.

P.S. Couldn't Standing and Kneeling be F3 and F4 functions? That way, there would never be confusion about what you're trying to do.

They def could. It's kinda weird how anet has been about breaking class-design norms from the start (what with the health pools and armor types), and has designed super unique classes, but for unfathomable reasons is super duper unimaginative about a ton of other stuff. Like they manage to make things very different/unique but at the same time refuse to go outside narrowly defined, ridiculous boundaries at the same time.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@jgeezz.7832 said:Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a
channeling skill
. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop
without
quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

I mean if youre not using Rifle there isnt much point to using DE alltogether. And for Rifle, even with quickness, its much too easy to stop. M7 is better because it lets you sustain your damage for longer while still having burst potential.

You vastly underestimate non-rifle burst. Infiltrator's Strike -> PW is vastly more reliable and to some extent more damage than spamming rifle#2. It's easy to hit max malice with quickness and still have enough left over for a quick weapon swap into a quickness boosted DJ. M7 doesn't help any issue you mentioned, either - it just serves to help where thief is bad, but you should be resetting during those moments anyway.

But if you want to play Pistol Whip, then Daredevil is infinitely better than DE. Thats the issue. You only have reason to go for DE if you want to play exactly Rifle. Any other weaponset is better suited with Daredevil or no elite spec at all.

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