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Perma stealth thief "counter"


Virdo.1540

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Imagine you have an t3 keep defended with your zerg against an enemy zerg. You see an thief that managed to hide somewhere inside the lord room (for example the desert keeps). It is permanently invisible, cleanse off reveals (and reveal traps) and continue to be permanent stealth until their zerg is ready again.

Can anyone tell me what to do against them or to find them?

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I'll leave it to someone else to mention some more creative and fun way to deal with it, however, it is no secret what the two most common ways to deal with or deter (the steaming pile of dung that is...) the Deadeye is.

Condi bunkers if solo or get friends and run double pocket healers. You know, that other stuff that people in the solo-small world usually whine about B) . That's not to say that the DE's can't adapt to condi but most unspecific builds tend to be a bit low on cleanses so you can push off or drop most/mediocre players even in stealth. If they adapt they are not really roaming and more so targetting you and then you can come up with any other plausible scenario since it could play out in a myriad of ways (eg., they may as well just bring a friend instead of adjusting their build, it's all about ganking you anyway, then you may as well get friends too and just scale it up to 5 where focus setups stops becomming so dominant).

In fact, that has always been the case all the way back since vanilla. Thieves were a hardcounter to Mesmers back then so most Mesmers ran with a set of dire in their bags at least (if Thieves were too prevalent) while double support and tripple whatever has been a staple for most larger organized gameplay since forever, even if not required.

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@Virdo.1540 said:Imagine you have an t3 keep defended with your zerg against an enemy zerg. You see an thief that managed to hide somewhere inside the lord room (for example the desert keeps). It is permanently invisible, cleanse off reveals (and reveal traps) and continue to be permanent stealth until their zerg is ready again.

Can anyone tell me what to do against them or to find them?if youre alone trying to find and kill him u better just leave ur wasting ur time..

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If you are alone, just bring a golem to lords, he can't kill you at lords if he shows himself anyway unless one is less able in the skills department. Then when you bring the golem in there, you can just jump in and out of it and waste their time. If he's going to waste his time being in stealth, he's not going to cap anything.

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When I had to hunt a thief in smc one strategy I developed is to become a permastealth thief to get the sneak on them. Once you figured out where they are, sneak up to the closest clue of their location and throw a target painter do not rely on the traps. Most likely they'll know the placements. Advise others to just act natural and try not to raise alarm until they are marked, If the thief knows its being hunted they'll just move somewhere else out of sight. Now after they're marked take them down asap, If they try to escape, have one chase them out of inner and the rest stay back to camp their portal.

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@"subversiontwo.7501" said:I'll leave it to someone else to mention some more creative and fun way to deal with it, however, it is no secret what the two most common ways to deal with or deter (the steaming pile of dung that is...) the Deadeye is.

Condi bunkers if solo or get friends and run double pocket healers. You know, that other stuff that people in the solo-small world usually whine about B) . That's not to say that the DE's can't adapt to condi but most unspecific builds tend to be a bit low on cleanses so you can push off or drop most/mediocre players even in stealth. If they adapt they are not really roaming and more so targetting you and then you can come up with any other plausible scenario since it could play out in a myriad of ways (eg., they may as well just bring a friend instead of adjusting their build, it's all about ganking you anyway, then you may as well get friends too and just scale it up to 5 where focus setups stops becomming so dominant).

In fact, that has always been the case all the way back since vanilla. Thieves were a hardcounter to Mesmers back then so most Mesmers ran with a set of dire in their bags at least (if Thieves were too prevalent) while double support and tripple whatever has been a staple for most larger organized gameplay since forever, even if not required.

Of course it really wouldn't matter too much if ANET hadn't gone insane and given thieves the ability to portal people in. You could usually ignore them. Now killing them actually matters. On the "balance" patch I suggest they limit the portal to ONE person(the thief).

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@Virdo.1540 said:Imagine you have an t3 keep defended with your zerg against an enemy zerg. You see an thief that managed to hide somewhere inside the lord room (for example the desert keeps). It is permanently invisible, cleanse off reveals (and reveal traps) and continue to be permanent stealth until their zerg is ready again.

Can anyone tell me what to do against them or to find them?

Yes. Log off. It's a 'feature' ....

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How often though are your t3's being flipped by thieves? I don't think it's widespread and it's probably the same 1 thief being annoying if anything and this is in the minority of things to be honest. If your zerg was there while the thief was still inside, you have to let them know, and then it's on them if they don't clear it out. IMO the thief has every right to be there, and it's the defenders job to ensure no mes or thief gets planted when there are breaches. My advice is, if one cannot take them out or deal with them alone, if no one is willing to help you, just let them flip it or portal their team in. Don't let it be a burden on your mind.

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@Heibi.4251 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:I'll leave it to someone else to mention some more creative and fun way to deal with it, however, it is no secret what the two most common ways to deal with or deter (the steaming pile of dung that is...) the Deadeye is.

Condi bunkers if solo or get friends and run double pocket healers. You know, that other stuff that people in the solo-small world usually whine about B) . That's not to say that the DE's can't adapt to condi but most unspecific builds tend to be a bit low on cleanses so you can push off or drop most/mediocre players even in stealth. If they adapt they are not really roaming and more so targetting you and then you can come up with any other plausible scenario since it could play out in a myriad of ways (eg., they may as well just bring a friend instead of adjusting their build, it's all about ganking you anyway, then you may as well get friends too and just scale it up to 5 where focus setups stops becomming so dominant).

In fact, that has always been the case all the way back since vanilla. Thieves were a hardcounter to Mesmers back then so most Mesmers ran with a set of dire in their bags at least (if Thieves were too prevalent) while double support and tripple whatever has been a staple for most larger organized gameplay since forever, even if not required.

Of course it really wouldn't matter too much if ANET hadn't gone insane and given thieves the ability to portal people in. You could usually ignore them. Now killing them actually matters. On the "balance" patch
I suggest they limit the portal to ONE person(the thief).

Speaking as a thief that hides in towers whenever he gets the chance; I'd be totally fine with this. I'm still kinda surprised they gave us a team portal in the first place, since all we wanted was for shadow trap to be reliable.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:I'll leave it to someone else to mention some more creative and fun way to deal with it, however, it is no secret what the two most common ways to deal with or deter (the steaming pile of dung that is...) the Deadeye is.

Condi bunkers if solo or get friends and run double pocket healers. You know, that other stuff that people in the solo-small world usually whine about B) . That's not to say that the DE's can't adapt to condi but most unspecific builds tend to be a bit low on cleanses so you can push off or drop most/mediocre players even in stealth. If they adapt they are not really roaming and more so targetting you and then you can come up with any other plausible scenario since it could play out in a myriad of ways (eg., they may as well just bring a friend instead of adjusting their build, it's all about ganking you anyway, then you may as well get friends too and just scale it up to 5 where focus setups stops becomming so dominant).

In fact, that has always been the case all the way back since vanilla. Thieves were a hardcounter to Mesmers back then so most Mesmers ran with a set of dire in their bags at least (if Thieves were too prevalent) while double support and tripple whatever has been a staple for most larger organized gameplay since forever, even if not required.

Generally good advice here. I only have one good attempt at capping a tower after sneaking in as once I've been found the odds of getting the cap drop significantly. After that I just troll and see how many kills I can get before I'm forced out, so with that in mind placing a golem in the capture circle is by far the most effective of the tactics you suggested since it totally shuts down any attempt to cap while also making it hard to kill you before your teammates force me to leave.

Going condi bunker or support is less effective if you're solo or low numbers as the build I use for capping towers is designed for that specifically, and is pretty bad vs other players. So if my reaction to you engaging me as I try to cap is going to be to get ooc and swap build to counter yours, you'd be better off being aggressive from the start and trying to land a target painter to mark me before I can move away. Once marked I can't easily get ooc to swap to a better build so my choices are pretty much leave or die. If you have any form of stealth then this should always be your opening move when you see a thief trying to cap something.

In general, just remember that thief is a class that relies on high burst out of stealth. Any tactic that relies on waiting for me to attack is probably going to be a bad move for you, so be aggressive and try to limit my options.

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@"XenesisII.1540" said:Ignore them and wait for the keep to flip, then take it back 5 mins later. Then come to the forums and post about it and wait a very long time for an answer because anet loves terribad stealth mechanics.

Or keep chasing them around providing them a laugh I guess.

just within 2 minutes, i was +1 shotted over 18k with Death Judgment. Yes the same Toxic Death Judgment since guild wars 2 beta in addition to 8 years of it. Not only that Anet loves terrible stealth mechanics, they find absolutely nothing wrong with Toxic mechanics as wellhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Judgment

'Death's Judgement (Rifle #4) ranges anywhere between 42k - 60k per shot so a pretty large spread'

If Thief Profession is either redesigned from the ground-up or be completely deleted from the game, expect Nothing from the patch

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easiest way is to have about 5 dmg classes there, with cc and quick big burst or aoe dmg. deadeyes suck at fighting groups, unless you sleep on them and the others just panic that is. with enough dmg around you can even use reveal skills to see where they are for some seconds, a healer also defeats their plan to pew pew kill.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:If you are alone, just bring a golem to lords, he can't kill you at lords if he shows himself anyway unless one is less able in the skills department. Then when you bring the golem in there, you can just jump in and out of it and waste their time. If he's going to waste his time being in stealth, he's not going to cap anything.

to u and to all other persons that answered:

the point is that the thief keeps invisible so long and brings the whole zerg back in, cuz nobody finds it

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@Virdo.1540 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:If you are alone, just bring a golem to lords, he can't kill you at lords if he shows himself anyway unless one is less able in the skills department. Then when you bring the golem in there, you can just jump in and out of it and waste their time. If he's going to waste his time being in stealth, he's not going to cap anything.

to u and to all other persons that answered:

the point is that the thief keeps invisible so long and brings the whole zerg back in, cuz nobody finds it

Nothing much you can do unless you catch him with a stealth trap and have a few high mobility / high burst classes with you.Soulbeasts/Deadeyes/Mirages/Heralds are your best bet to getting them once they are revealed for the short duration.

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Ignore them and wait for the keep to flip, then take it back 5 mins later. Then come to the forums and post about it and wait a very long time for an answer because anet loves terribad stealth mechanics.

Or keep chasing them around providing them a laugh I guess.

just within 2 minutes, i was +1 shotted over 18k with Death Judgment. Yes the same Toxic Death Judgment since guild wars 2 beta in addition to 8 years of it. Not only that Anet loves terrible stealth mechanics, they find absolutely nothing wrong with Toxic mechanics as well

'Death's Judgement (Rifle #4) ranges anywhere between 42k - 60k per shot so a pretty large spread'

If Thief Profession is either redesigned from the ground-up or be completely deleted from the game, expect Nothing from the patch

What the heck are you on about? Rifle 4 is a backwards 600 tele, or a smokescreen in kneel stance. . .

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@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:What the heck are you on about? Rifle 4 is a backwards 600 tele, or a smokescreen in kneel stance. . .

Yeah it's an old video from before some of the skills changes and reworks, so it's showing the kneeling dj on rifle 4. I also don't understand the reason for the video, as it's showing a golem and nothing to do with a wvw scenario.

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@Virdo.1540 said:to u and to all other persons that answered:

the point is that the thief keeps invisible so long and brings the whole zerg back in, cuz nobody finds itUsing a permastealth theif with target painters is the most reliable way I know to flush them out, but if you're having trouble tracking them, I have only two tips:

1: Keep you eyes open and ears on the ground for any smoke fields or damage to npcs or structures (i.e. cannons and oil pots)2: If you don't see or hear any smoke for at least 12-16 sec most likely they're sealthing by the walls since using CnD on walls doesn't reveal

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:easiest way is to have about 5 dmg classes there, with cc and quick big burst or aoe dmg. deadeyes suck at fighting groups, unless you sleep on them and the others just panic that is. with enough dmg around you can even use reveal skills to see where they are for some seconds, a healer also defeats their plan to pew pew kill.

Bring 5 damage classes with cc and aoe to kill one permastealth deadeye in a keep, sounds pretty balanced. After the balance patch probably need to bring 10 damage classes with cc and aoes.

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There is very little a thief can do.

Don't waste yur time and join the zerg to pressure elsewhere.

Drop a few Golems to prevent "surprise" backdoors because there is no way a zerg of any size can "instantly kill" the Lord/Golems, so these can be put in place for defenders to stall.

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@"Voltekka.2375" said:"there is very little a thief can do" yes, one of those "little" things is being able to port inside people (a mesmer, for example) that port inside whole zergs.

w/e, if they can port the zerg in then good for them, but perma stealth is still just like downstate -it shouldn't be in the game. :D

Inb4 they hard cap stealth to a few (3-6) seconds in 2 months btw. And I think that would be k.

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in and against full zergs or blobs maybe; realistic, many servers have tons of thieves, rangers, mesmers around - those classes that aren't standard equipment for larger scale fights. however, they get annoying if you stand with 8 against 20 of those dpsclasses...

what a thief can do or not also depends on the player. this permastealth and brutal dps is surely a thing., and i never said that thieves are not somehow broken. you have to nearly oneshot them, and that is really not easy unless u outnumber the thief heavily.

amongst the easiest farm is playing a thief, and you can use his method of picking off single targets all the time; while zerg battles require a zerg first, which is only happening around the weekend consistently, otherwise rather random. in t1 servers we have like every other day some zerg, might be worse for low-population servers.

way more often than that it's rather medium-scale player groups that fight each other, usually in uneven numbers - like in a 9 vs 15 some thiefs or other dps do great work, maybe more than meta classes would have done. i'm on purpose using this kind of relations, because that's how fights often look.

you cannot always spot how many people are around, so if one spots a group and calls "10 red inc", where for example you know 6 ppl could be enough to kill them, 2-3 stealthing thieves could turn the tide - that's why thieves are that good and why permastealth is really a questionable thing.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:If you are alone, just bring a golem to lords, he can't kill you at lords if he shows himself anyway unless one is less able in the skills department. Then when you bring the golem in there, you can just jump in and out of it and waste their time. If he's going to waste his time being in stealth, he's not going to cap anything.

Just to clarify the issue: this thread is not about thieves soloing lords.

Did you notice the thief traps rework? Thieves have a portal like mesmers now.

The thief isn't going to oneshot you so that you have to hide in the golem.

The thief will run full bunker gear with perma stealth and portal to bring back the zerg in.

@OP: You can't kill him.

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