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Weaver and Firebrand are problems


lightstalker.1498

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Kaburro.4712" said:I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!Necro is OK by the way...
xmECDHQ.png

Reaper is probably one of the easiest classes to know when you are about to take a lot of damage.

Don't tank shroud. 4s of not avoiding anything, like the chain of attacks you took in your screenshots, will get you killed.

Anyways it's not a Reaper specific issue. 4s of not mitigating damage from most classes will result in similar or higher damage, especially when it's their strongest skills. It's where the game is right now and why everything is about to be toned down. All damage is too high.

I am "suspended" for accusing people so I can't say names or how much they are, look at the lenght of the squares and than imagine how much red symbols and arrows and circles (wont talk about mirages) around me. Anet just need to slow down this game.Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

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@Kaburro.4712 said:

@Kaburro.4712 said:I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!Necro is OK by the way...
xmECDHQ.png

Reaper is probably one of the easiest classes to know when you are about to take a lot of damage.

Don't tank shroud. 4s of not avoiding anything, like the chain of attacks you took in your screenshots, will get you killed.

Anyways it's not a Reaper specific issue. 4s of not mitigating damage from most classes will result in similar or higher damage, especially when it's their strongest skills. It's where the game is right now and why everything is about to be toned down. All damage is too high.

I am "suspended" for accusing people so I can't say names or how much they are, look at the lenght of the squares and than imagine how much red symbols and arrows and circles (wont talk about mirages) around me. Anet just need to slow down this game.Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".

And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

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@Kaburro.4712 said:Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

@Kaburro.4712 said:And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Kaburro.4712 said:Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

@Kaburro.4712 said:And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

Tell me the truth. You are playing GW2 (pvp) for less than a year.I get your point, you are right. But problem here is that berserker used to be a rare thing now is standard.

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@Kaburro.4712 said:

@Kaburro.4712 said:Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

@Kaburro.4712 said:And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

Tell me the truth. You are playing GW2 (pvp) for less than a year.

I've been playing for far,far longer. Seriously the game has taken a shift to damage avoidance ,mobility, and potentially excessive healing/re-sustain being the main ways of not dying with the expansions because damage is so high. Before being stunned for 2s and not breaking it didn't mean you just died where as now if you don't break that stun you likely will or will be so pressured you have to play defensively.

Toughness and Vit only help so much but have been increasingly and now almost entirely overshadowed by evade/block/invuln. Even healing. Everything has been crept up so much they had to remove stat combinations from PvP so as to not break some new overloaded builds.

I don't see why you are attempting to belittle and attack me while simultaneously agreeing with the point that everything has been turned up to 100 and needs to be dialled down.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Kaburro.4712 said:Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

@Kaburro.4712 said:And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

Tell me the truth. You are playing GW2 (pvp) for less than a year.

I've been playing for far,far longer. Seriously the game has taken a shift to damage avoidance ,mobility, and potentially excessive healing/re-sustain being the main ways of not dying with the expansions because damage is so high. Before being stunned for 2s and not breaking it didn't mean you just died where as now if you don't break that stun you likely will or will be so pressured you have to play defensively.

Toughness and Vit only help so much but have been increasingly and now almost entirely overshadowed by evade/block/invuln. Even healing. Everything has been crept up so much they had to remove stat combinations from PvP so as to not break some new overloaded builds.

I don't see why you are attempting to belittle and attack me while simultaneously agreeing with the point that everything has been turned up to 100 and needs to be dialled down.

Sorry I was a "little" aggravated and understood you wrong the first time. My apologies, english is not my main language so sometimes I get things wrong before reading 3x XD But.... nevertheless... what you said (agree)!

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Or better yet:Chop down Condition damage in general.It should not be able to burst.

That hasn't been true since HoT really.Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

Just like mortrialus said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

(I am ok with how mesmer currently is,this is for reference) For example you can evade a mesmer (the old build), pistol 4 and 5. You are safe right? You are not. It's clones will passively tick your hp and you will have to leave over time. Is there smart play involved? You dodged his skills right?

An ele will evade, invur while lava skin . Ok you moved away from it. Now it's your time to burst. Nope, there are several other skills it can casl, stance, flame uprising etc. You dodge those too. You dodged those too. Time to burst. Oh wait it's now in water attunement. Heal heal healed evade, earth stance. Now it's back to fire and again you can't stand next to it.

I d go through FB but I don't think I should have to. The point is. You can dodge it's major burst and not die. But it's passive states such as symbols, flame auras etc etc. Will still get you no matter what you do. And over time you have to leave.

Your window to kill is extremely small and you have to hit excatly on point to kill it. But does he need to do that to you? No. No they don't.

If it is excatly as you say. A you hit me you do same dmg whether condi or physical. Sure thing. But in reality it is not. It's you miss your attack but u can still hit me with small ones just by being next to me. That's ridiculous.

They need to nerf ele and fb's ability to passively kill you while retaining it's burst. Or give it no burst but passive ability to kill you. It can't both kill you with burst while also doing passive damage by just being next to you. Unless you also give power the passive ability to cast symbols, clones, auras that can damage you.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Kaburro.4712 said:Nerf everybody and everything 40%.... than they can work on that "imminent balance patch".The patch is going to nerf everyone and slow the game down. Its like its entire purpose.

@Kaburro.4712 said:And I can tell you 4s is the time I get to get rid of CC so I can use one of the available skills.

Well you were being focused by 3 people. Its likely you were out of cooldowns and just CC'd. This is the issue with the current state of the game. Toughness and Vitality don't mean a whole lot and its all about complete avoidance via mobility or skills that evade / block / make you invulnerable. The second you can't do these things you just die almost without question.

This is why necros complain huh necros were being told all this time L2P when they were saying this, funny.

In fact, months ago the debate was that toughness doesn't really help us much with carapace because of power creep of dmg modifiers might spam and mobility.

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@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@lare.5129 said:someone should lose. Take it as rule.Aslo I still see small amount of weavers on pvp. If it will be realy true we will see 5 vs 5 weavers in each match.But now sometime I see 0 (zero) weavers in match.

That's because all the weavers are in plat.

It feels like there are plat players in every match though.

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@Gamble.4580 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

Even the best reaper can only run around trying to survive hoping their teammates are good and killing stuff fast or it becomes free food at the first sight of enemy.

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@XECOR.2814 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

Even the best reaper can only run around trying to survive hoping their teammates are good and killing stuff fast or it becomes free food at the first sight of enemy.

Yeah but thing is reaper has huge weaknesses but also huge strengths as reapers chill and shroud spin to win has complete cheese brokenness all over it, just like the rest of the classes do lol. That's why it's a noob stomper and is played in low ranks, high rank players are to good to be caught by it over and over but a whole team of silver players will get deleted by one reaper mid by the chill spin to win combo lol what makes it worse is that's what reapers do over and over yet players still fall for it in lower ranks lol

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:A good reaper will delete both fb and ele.

and good everything else deletes the reaper, thats the pickle

Yep but that’s what people forget it’s a 5 man team u are ment to play as it to win :)

Even the best reaper can only run around trying to survive hoping their teammates are good and killing stuff fast or it becomes free food at the first sight of enemy.

Yeah but thing is reaper has huge weaknesses but also huge strengths as reapers chill and shroud spin to win has complete cheese brokenness all over it, just like the rest of the classes do lol. That's why it's a noob stomper and is played in low ranks, high rank players are to good to be caught by it over and over but a whole team of silver players will get deleted by one reaper mid by the chill spin to win combo lol what makes it worse is that's what reapers do over and over yet players still fall for it in lower ranks lol

reaper has ALOT of overlaping easy to get damage boosts, that turn singular skills into dodge or die.People have to learn to avoid them compleatly, not just dodge specific skills.Its a silver gatekeeper xd

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@TorQ.7041 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Or better yet:Chop down Condition damage in general.It should not be able to burst.

That hasn't been true since HoT really.Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

Just like mortrialus said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

And attacks from condition damage somehow don't? You make it sound like minor conditions from things like weak skills or auto attacks can kill you but the same for power damage can't. You can avoid burst but still die to the followup skills and auto attacks, this isn't exclusive to one or the other type of damage.

You are't passively being killed by something you are , in one for or another failing to avoid an attack.

Some aspects of certain builds, power or condi, are over tuned, but condi in general is not when compared relatively. Regardless of this everything still needs to be toned down.

I still maintain the notion a lot of people don't like fighting conditions and don't know how to because the death log doesn't give you enough information. Power skills show [You got hit by this skill for X] where as condi is [You died to condi but I'm not going to tell you which skills did all the condi]. Its why all the complaints about condi are over arching where as for power they are targeted.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Or better yet:Chop down Condition damage in general.It should not be able to burst.

That hasn't been true since HoT really.Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

Just like mortrialus said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

And attacks from condition damage somehow don't? You make it sound like minor conditions from things like weak skills or auto attacks can kill you but the same for power damage can't. You can avoid burst but still die to the followup skills and auto attacks, this isn't exclusive to one or the other type of damage.

You are't passively being killed by something you are , in one for or another failing to avoid an attack.

Some aspects of certain builds, power or condi, are over tuned, but condi in general is not when compared relatively. Regardless of this everything still needs to be toned down.

I still maintain the notion a lot of people don't like fighting conditions and don't know how to because the death log doesn't give you enough information. Power skills show [You got hit by this skill for X] where as condi is [You died to condi but I'm not going to tell you which skills did all the condi]. Its why all the complaints about condi are over arching where as for power they are targeted.

to comment on it.entire axe autoattack chain from axe ( cmirage ) deals about as much as 1 hit from auto ( warrior )there are hard hitters in both classes, arcing ( low cd )vs p4 from cmirage ( much longer cd )Honestly chip power damage sticks better then condi, expecially against classes with mini barriers ( weaver/scrapper )Or cleanses that are built in ( weaver/thief + somewhat rev )its not black or white, power builds have ALOT chip damage too.warrior can throw sword, dodge for damage, autos, and low cd arcing or gs3.ranger has low cd maul and pet doing the chip damage for them for example.its not black or white

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@mortrialus.3062 said:Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

We can also just leave condition damage output the way it is, but reduce the avenues at which it can be applied. Taking more hits in a very short window is contextual, especially if those hits are rapid and infeasible to reliably dodge or mitigate. In those cases, Its almost like stealth bursts - attacks that you cant accurately predict but rack up to hit you for crazy damage anyway if you don't cleanse.

I think some avenues of condi application are fine. Embrace the darkness and primordial stance are good examples of predictable condi damage you can respond to. I still think some attention should be given to autos that can rack up bleeds or strings of attacks with long channel times that still put 4-5 stacks of dot on you even if you dodge the first half.

My opinion is this. Condition damage should have the potential to burst like raw power, but it needs a bit of a balancing act. The harder the attack or attack string is to predict and dodge, the less stacks it should put on you and it should have higher damage to compensate. That way, if someone eats the whole attack, they get punished like they would have if they ate a power variant, but if they dodge and you still hit them with part of it you get the benefit of DoT. If that gets put in place, then I think we can start toning down access to cleanse.

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@"Kaburro.4712" said:I hate those Firebrand! Using their skills and condis... How dare!!!Necro is OK by the way...xmECDHQ.png

I think that if you eat all of soul spiral in any context, you deserve it.The only reason I think you're upset about this is because you tried to facetank a reaper that had just used "Nothing Can Save You!" on you, converted a good chunk of your boons into vulnerability and was carving through your blocks that you expected to save you, when you should have dodged/blinded to avoid the damage output for 4 seconds.And that matchup is the only one it's good at.

Super glad to see reaper being useful in fighting a build that can hard carry a team unchecked.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Or better yet:Chop down Condition damage in general.It should not be able to burst.

That hasn't been true since HoT really.Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain. Just because its a different damage type doesn't somehow negate the fact you are failing to avoid damage. For some reason people feel they should be punished less because its condition damage and "DaMaGe OvEr TiMe ShOuLd bE sLoW". You still need to avoid attacks and strong damage combos else you will die at an ever increasing rate...this should and will always be a thing.

There seems to be some double standard between taking e.g. 15k power damage in 0~2s vs taking 15k condi damage in 3~6s.

Just like mortrialus said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Taking more hits means taking more damage. Taking more hits in a very short window results in more damage faster. This is true whether we're talking power damage or condition damage. You get rid of that simple principal and then you're left with a system where for condition damage landing additional hits no longer matters and has no value, in a way that makes it either complete garbage or extremely op. Simple as that.

Besides conditions in general are not a problem its specific builds that are.

While I agree that taking a direct hit should be no different. I disagree with the ease of application.

Power attacks from direct damage have large cool downs, a warrior can arch slice and hundred blades within a time frame. Outside of that a warrior cannot damage you. With alot of condi classes. You can avoid the massive burst but the slow ticks can then also kill you.

And attacks from condition damage somehow don't? You make it sound like minor conditions from things like weak skills or auto attacks can kill you but the same for power damage can't. You can avoid burst but still die to the followup skills and auto attacks, this isn't exclusive to one or the other type of damage.

You are't passively being killed by something you are , in one for or another failing to avoid an attack.

Some aspects of certain builds, power or condi, are over tuned, but condi in general is not when compared relatively. Regardless of this everything still needs to be toned down.

I still maintain the notion a lot of people don't like fighting conditions and don't know how to because the death log doesn't give you enough information. Power skills show [You got hit by this skill for X] where as condi is [You died to condi but I'm not going to tell you which skills did all the condi]. Its why all the complaints about condi are over arching where as for power they are targeted.

You can also auto attack in condi. The point is. Is that it is over tuned. You can avoid by correct positioning. You can't avoid aoe in an entire circle you get hurt just being stand next to it..

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Or better yet:Chop down Condition damage in general.It should not be able to burst.

That hasn't been true since HoT really.Considering the games overall lifetime, condition damage has shifted to a more burst oriented playstyle a long time ago.So the argument that Condi dmg should be this slowly ramping, incremental damage over time style is long outdated.You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.So if a condi build can burst, then this is not intended (anet made clear how they want the condi playstyle to look like) and deserves a change or even nerf.

Condi's "burst" in the same way power does: not avoiding a lot of attacks in a small time frame or big damage skills in a chain.No, just no! If each attack inflicts less stacks, but with a longer duration you can not burst by definition. You have to stack with more attacks to achieve the same amount of dps. This mechanic is called ramp up time and it is intended for condi damage because that type of damage leaves you more stats for sustain.

If a condi build has no ramp up time, it gets problematic, esp. when it can cover the damaging conditions with cover conditions. That's why guardians (mainly burn - easy to cleanse) have a lower ramp up time than necros (tons of different conditions at once - hard to cleanse).

Okay let's take Deathly Chill as an example:

pre burst nerf: 3 bleeds for 5 secondspost burst nerf: 2 bleeds for 8 seconds

You get (pretty much) the same damage in either 5 seconds or you get it in 8 seconds. Both is the result of one attack, but the latter leaves you more room to counterplay - either kill the target before the whole damage is applied or cleanse (for both you have 3 seconds more time post nerf).

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@"KrHome.1920" said:You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.

It didn't work.

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@Aza.2105 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:You must have missed the huge balance patch a year ago or so, where pretty much every condi skill in the game was changed to apply less stacks but for a longer duration to achieve exactly that "slowly ramping" effect.

It didn't work.They need to tackle the condition damage stat.

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