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Do we Want to Bring Back Epic Garrison Battles?


Svarty.8019

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:However, you stated you want to flip structures back and forth and you want the pace to be faster than now, and you don't like fights. In other words, you want to move even more towards a ktrain like EOTM was?

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said.

Then explain what you meant?

You stated that people don't defend after capping and it's capped back and after upgrading again, it's flipped again and you stated "I want those fights. But not in that boring frequency.". Which means you want to flip the structure back and forth more often. And you stated that: "I for one do not enjoy long fights in garrisons". you only like fights that have a back and forth swap. Because you don't like combat for combat, you want a short combat with a structure flip, and then a defense with a structure flip, this is called cap trading in ktraining. In other words, fights are ok, so long as they don't last long enough to get in the way of the reward.

So, that seems like it is exactly what you said. Not trying to be rude, but I really don't see how else it is meant to be taken.

I want to have long battles that can be repeated. Which is not the case in a high-tier garrison as soon as the attackers win, because that causes a long "cooldown" for such a battle, as the incentive for attacking the garrison is largely gone. The idea of having extended intense battles is independent of where it takes place. Could happen in the ruins for all I care.

That is how things were however. Once capped the fights didn't stop, the attacking server if they capped, right away started sweeping for mesmers, in most cases after a flip, the other server, in full was back on inner fighting again in minutes, because once the fight started to turn, most of the mes of the defending server bailed out of the fight to hide, so it was a rush to find them before they could port everyone back in...However that slows down the ktrain, so anet added marked after a structure is flipped, yet another passive added to make people not care and not invested.

Assuming all mes were found and killed before they could port people in, the other zerg was already back banging on the wall/gate, and you had a constant defense of the Garri/keep, it would go on for hours after flipping of close calls pushing off the other servers attacks, roamers scrambling everywhere to cap camps and escort yaks to get supply in etc etc. And one of the larger changes from back then is people pushed OUT, letting a zerg into outer or inner was not a thing, because if you wanted to hold, supply was so short you could not afford to instantly rebuild a wall to 100% each time, you had to be proactive and push them off.

Capping something, as someone else said above, was huge deal, and if you were in voice coms people actually cheered, so once something was taken, people wanted to hold onto it, not just move on right away to something else. And the home server also wanted it back because if allowed to upgrade it was just as hard to get back, and losing something that people invested time and personal gold into upgrading wanted it back.

I wish I could find the video of the keep fight (looked to be hills) where the NPC continued to live and ‘upgraded’ the walls in the middle of a push, which split the attacking force’s team..

And you are right, pushing out was a thing.

Reset used to be epic.,,

edit found video

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:However, you stated you want to flip structures back and forth and you want the pace to be faster than now, and you don't like fights. In other words, you want to move even more towards a ktrain like EOTM was?

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said.

Then explain what you meant?

You stated that people don't defend after capping and it's capped back and after upgrading again, it's flipped again and you stated "I want those fights. But not in that boring frequency.". Which means you want to flip the structure back and forth more often. And you stated that: "I for one do not enjoy long fights in garrisons". you only like fights that have a back and forth swap. Because you don't like combat for combat, you want a short combat with a structure flip, and then a defense with a structure flip, this is called cap trading in ktraining. In other words, fights are ok, so long as they don't last long enough to get in the way of the reward.

So, that seems like it is exactly what you said. Not trying to be rude, but I really don't see how else it is meant to be taken.

I want to have long battles that can be repeated. Which is not the case in a high-tier garrison as soon as the attackers win, because that causes a long "cooldown" for such a battle, as the incentive for attacking the garrison is largely gone. The idea of having extended intense battles is independent of where it takes place. Could happen in the ruins for all I care.

That is how things were however. Once capped the fights didn't stop, the attacking server if they capped, right away started sweeping for mesmers, in most cases after a flip, the other server, in full was back on inner fighting again in minutes, because once the fight started to turn, most of the mes of the defending server bailed out of the fight to hide, so it was a rush to find them before they could port everyone back in...However that slows down the ktrain, so anet added marked after a structure is flipped, yet another passive added to make people not care and not invested.

Assuming all mes were found and killed before they could port people in, the other zerg was already back banging on the wall/gate, and you had a constant defense of the Garri/keep, it would go on for hours after flipping of close calls pushing off the other servers attacks, roamers scrambling everywhere to cap camps and escort yaks to get supply in etc etc. And one of the larger changes from back then is people pushed OUT, letting a zerg into outer or inner was not a thing, because if you wanted to hold, supply was so short you could not afford to instantly rebuild a wall to 100% each time, you had to be proactive and push them off.

Capping something, as someone else said above, was huge deal, and if you were in voice coms people actually cheered, so once something was taken, people wanted to hold onto it, not just move on right away to something else. And the home server also wanted it back because if allowed to upgrade it was just as hard to get back, and losing something that people invested time and personal gold into upgrading wanted it back.

I wish I could find the video of the keep fight (looked to be hills) where the NPC continued to live and ‘upgraded’ the walls in the middle of a push, which split the attacking force’s team..

And you are right, pushing out was a thing.

Reset used to be epic.,,

edit found video

Oh man, I almost forgot about the workers that would run back and forth upgrading.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:However, you stated you want to flip structures back and forth and you want the pace to be faster than now, and you don't like fights. In other words, you want to move even more towards a ktrain like EOTM was?

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said.

Then explain what you meant?

You stated that people don't defend after capping and it's capped back and after upgrading again, it's flipped again and you stated "I want those fights. But not in that boring frequency.". Which means you want to flip the structure back and forth more often. And you stated that: "I for one do not enjoy long fights in garrisons". you only like fights that have a back and forth swap. Because you don't like combat for combat, you want a short combat with a structure flip, and then a defense with a structure flip, this is called cap trading in ktraining. In other words, fights are ok, so long as they don't last long enough to get in the way of the reward.

So, that seems like it is exactly what you said. Not trying to be rude, but I really don't see how else it is meant to be taken.

I want to have long battles that can be repeated. Which is not the case in a high-tier garrison as soon as the attackers win, because that causes a long "cooldown" for such a battle, as the incentive for attacking the garrison is largely gone. The idea of having extended intense battles is independent of where it takes place. Could happen in the ruins for all I care.

That is how things were however. Once capped the fights didn't stop, the attacking server if they capped, right away started sweeping for mesmers, in most cases after a flip, the other server, in full was back on inner fighting again in minutes, because once the fight started to turn, most of the mes of the defending server bailed out of the fight to hide, so it was a rush to find them before they could port everyone back in...However that slows down the ktrain, so anet added marked after a structure is flipped, yet another passive added to make people not care and not invested.

Assuming all mes were found and killed before they could port people in, the other zerg was already back banging on the wall/gate, and you had a constant defense of the Garri/keep, it would go on for hours after flipping of close calls pushing off the other servers attacks, roamers scrambling everywhere to cap camps and escort yaks to get supply in etc etc. And one of the larger changes from back then is people pushed OUT, letting a zerg into outer or inner was not a thing, because if you wanted to hold, supply was so short you could not afford to instantly rebuild a wall to 100% each time, you had to be proactive and push them off.

Capping something, as someone else said above, was huge deal, and if you were in voice coms people actually cheered, so once something was taken, people wanted to hold onto it, not just move on right away to something else. And the home server also wanted it back because if allowed to upgrade it was just as hard to get back, and losing something that people invested time and personal gold into upgrading wanted it back.

I wish I could find the video of the keep fight (looked to be hills) where the NPC continued to live and ‘upgraded’ the walls in the middle of a push, which split the attacking force’s team..

And you are right, pushing out was a thing.

Reset used to be epic.,,

edit found video

Oh man, I almost forgot about the workers that would run back and forth upgrading.

And could be sped up with boons. But the sheer amount of emotional trauma inflicted on ignorant newbies (for taking supply or doing the wrong upgrade) was a touch unhealthy, even by my standards.

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Horrible balancing over the years have taken all the epic fights out of the equation and it's just everyone getting one shot and deleted. Don't expect that to change anytime soon with how slow these guys are to fix things in WVW. Plus we got all these stupid banners and keep buffs that were horrible additions to the game. WvW is a giant mess that needs major attention but we know all the attention goes to living world's 2 hours of content so i wouldn't hold my breathe. Not to mention everyone just runs away from fights on their mounts and gliders(horrible additions) or everyone just bandwagons to the same server(population is a mess on NA at least). everything is a mess in this gamemode since they've neglected it for 7 years+.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:However, you stated you want to flip structures back and forth and you want the pace to be faster than now, and you don't like fights. In other words, you want to move even more towards a ktrain like EOTM was?

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said.

Then explain what you meant?

You stated that people don't defend after capping and it's capped back and after upgrading again, it's flipped again and you stated "I want those fights. But not in that boring frequency.". Which means you want to flip the structure back and forth more often. And you stated that: "I for one do not enjoy long fights in garrisons". you only like fights that have a back and forth swap. Because you don't like combat for combat, you want a short combat with a structure flip, and then a defense with a structure flip, this is called cap trading in ktraining. In other words, fights are ok, so long as they don't last long enough to get in the way of the reward.

So, that seems like it is exactly what you said. Not trying to be rude, but I really don't see how else it is meant to be taken.

I want to have long battles that can be repeated. Which is not the case in a high-tier garrison as soon as the attackers win, because that causes a long "cooldown" for such a battle, as the incentive for attacking the garrison is largely gone. The idea of having extended intense battles is independent of where it takes place. Could happen in the ruins for all I care.

That is how things were however. Once capped the fights didn't stop, the attacking server if they capped, right away started sweeping for mesmers, in most cases after a flip, the other server, in full was back on inner fighting again in minutes, because once the fight started to turn, most of the mes of the defending server bailed out of the fight to hide, so it was a rush to find them before they could port everyone back in...However that slows down the ktrain, so anet added marked after a structure is flipped, yet another passive added to make people not care and not invested.

Assuming all mes were found and killed before they could port people in, the other zerg was already back banging on the wall/gate, and you had a constant defense of the Garri/keep, it would go on for hours after flipping of close calls pushing off the other servers attacks, roamers scrambling everywhere to cap camps and escort yaks to get supply in etc etc. And one of the larger changes from back then is people pushed OUT, letting a zerg into outer or inner was not a thing, because if you wanted to hold, supply was so short you could not afford to instantly rebuild a wall to 100% each time, you had to be proactive and push them off.

Capping something, as someone else said above, was huge deal, and if you were in voice coms people actually cheered, so once something was taken, people wanted to hold onto it, not just move on right away to something else. And the home server also wanted it back because if allowed to upgrade it was just as hard to get back, and losing something that people invested time and personal gold into upgrading wanted it back.

I wish I could find the video of the keep fight (looked to be hills) where the NPC continued to live and ‘upgraded’ the walls in the middle of a push, which split the attacking force’s team..

And you are right, pushing out was a thing.

Reset used to be epic.,,

edit found video

Oh man, I almost forgot about the workers that would run back and forth upgrading.

And could be sped up with boons. But the sheer amount of emotional trauma inflicted on ignorant newbies (for taking supply or doing the wrong upgrade) was a touch unhealthy, even by my standards.

That it was... I never had the gold to kick off upgrades but yeah... The flame fests just from that.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:However, you stated you want to flip structures back and forth and you want the pace to be faster than now, and you don't like fights. In other words, you want to move even more towards a ktrain like EOTM was?

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said.

Then explain what you meant?

You stated that people don't defend after capping and it's capped back and after upgrading again, it's flipped again and you stated "I want those fights. But not in that boring frequency.". Which means you want to flip the structure back and forth more often. And you stated that: "I for one do not enjoy long fights in garrisons". you only like fights that have a back and forth swap. Because you don't like combat for combat, you want a short combat with a structure flip, and then a defense with a structure flip, this is called cap trading in ktraining. In other words, fights are ok, so long as they don't last long enough to get in the way of the reward.

So, that seems like it is exactly what you said. Not trying to be rude, but I really don't see how else it is meant to be taken.

I want to have long battles that can be repeated. Which is not the case in a high-tier garrison as soon as the attackers win, because that causes a long "cooldown" for such a battle, as the incentive for attacking the garrison is largely gone. The idea of having extended intense battles is independent of where it takes place. Could happen in the ruins for all I care.

That is how things were however. Once capped the fights didn't stop, the attacking server if they capped, right away started sweeping for mesmers, in most cases after a flip, the other server, in full was back on inner fighting again in minutes, because once the fight started to turn, most of the mes of the defending server bailed out of the fight to hide, so it was a rush to find them before they could port everyone back in...However that slows down the ktrain, so anet added marked after a structure is flipped, yet another passive added to make people not care and not invested.

Assuming all mes were found and killed before they could port people in, the other zerg was already back banging on the wall/gate, and you had a constant defense of the Garri/keep, it would go on for hours after flipping of close calls pushing off the other servers attacks, roamers scrambling everywhere to cap camps and escort yaks to get supply in etc etc. And one of the larger changes from back then is people pushed OUT, letting a zerg into outer or inner was not a thing, because if you wanted to hold, supply was so short you could not afford to instantly rebuild a wall to 100% each time, you had to be proactive and push them off.

Capping something, as someone else said above, was huge deal, and if you were in voice coms people actually cheered, so once something was taken, people wanted to hold onto it, not just move on right away to something else. And the home server also wanted it back because if allowed to upgrade it was just as hard to get back, and losing something that people invested time and personal gold into upgrading wanted it back.

Great post, thanks. I hope the devs read and understand what's wrong and why people are upset/angry/apathetic/[already gone] with what's happened to the mode.

It's interesting to see the role automation has played in the evolution of WvW. Perhaps this is our bright new RL future. :anguished:

WvW declined rapidly when several servers abandoned the notion of objectives, abandoned the notion of servers as something to be fought for and stated that their objective was "good fights" and scrimming in open field play. It all became a bit of a cult-of-personality situation, with great swathes of people massing behind charismatic commanders. We shouldn't forget those people and what they did to the mode -I just don't understand why they didn't enjoy objective-oriented play, since that is where the best natural handicapping occurs - it's sad that they didn't recognise this.

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@"Svarty.8019" said:

WvW declined rapidly when several servers abandoned the notion of objectives, abandoned the notion of servers as something to be fought for and stated that their objective was "good fights" and scrimming in open field play. It all became a bit of a cult-of-personality situation, with great swathes of people massing behind charismatic commanders. We shouldn't forget those people and what they did to the mode -I just don't understand why they didn't enjoy objective-oriented play, since that is where the best natural handicapping occurs - it's sad that they didn't recognise this.This statement is sadly accurate. The servers whose reputation and community basically died are still around while nearly ALL of those guilds and commanders are gone, except the mentality of "fights only" still lingers on. Some of those commanders didn't like the objectives for that handicapping reason, they wanted a handicap but usually in their favor, yet not TOO much because they didn't want those they were victorious against claiming it was because they had defense advantage or whatnot, how silly :P

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People filibustered and lobbied hand over fist for the old bunker meta (which was a major contributor to those longer fights) to go away, and this current era is the result of that, plus alot of advocacy for "high risk-high reward" play - which increased strike damage/power damage considerably.

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@"Svarty.8019" said:Back at the beginning of the game, several factors combined to make garrison battles much longer than they are in 2019.

I've been talking to people on TeamSpeak (yes, we use that on my server!) and the old folks there reminisce about those fights as being better than the ones we have now.

I think the factors that have changed since the early days are these;

  • Bannering the Lord was removed.
  • Better discipline from attacking zerg, tighter balls (!)
  • Less forgiving combat: Enormous damage all over the place (there are two factors: players perfected their builds and gear/ Anet added powercreep via expacs).
  • There is more understanding of the environment - awareness of siege placements, pro scouting, orange dots
  • EWP - this replaced the timed waypoint (Anet later claimed it was a bug/unintended effect) that happened every 5? Minutes.
  • Communications with PvE - we can no longer call on PvE for reinforcements because of the Megaserver.

If you can think of more, please add them below.

Some of these things could be reversed/changed, but we wouldn't want to waste Anet's time [insert your own joke].So the question is: do we want to bring back epic Garrison battles?

The problem with all of this is that you COULD STILL have epic fights but NA has decided all it wants to do is sit on rangers and holosmiths and talk smack in map chat. Guilds COULD STILL perfect their gear, builds and run as tight as they possibly could. But stereotypes and laziness have created an entire of community of players that are afraid to try and actually be good. This can all still be done today but only a handful of guilds actually try. Most resort to blobbing up 30-40+ and teaching their necros the way to play Scourge is to "face roll" . Then when an actual guild does show up and roll their 40 with 15 they all scream "necro OP!" when the tools were in their hands all along they were just too lazy to actually learn how to play the game.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I still think that making the structure upgrades automatic is one of the worst decisions they made. Yes, it required a lot of coordination to get stuff flipped and upgraded, but that actually was a good thing in terms of the long term health and enjoyment of the game.

Although automation overall was great in terms of taking away tedious tasks, it certainly made the mode less interesting, and further encouraged zerging (not that that's a bad thing, it's just bad if that's the ONLY thing).

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@Knighthonor.4061 said:How about better AI in WvW? Better bosses

I think just putting some strong knockback on the bosses would be enough. Something that would help swing a fight without simply being super stronk. Oh look: it already exists on the Fire and Air keep, why not just use that?

I'm trying desperately to think of cheap ways to make the game better, but WvW seems to be in Maintenance Mode.

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:How about better AI in WvW? Better bosses

I think just putting some strong knockback on the bosses would be enough. Something that would help swing a fight without simply being super stronk. Oh look: it already exists on the Fire and Air keep, why not just use that?

I'm trying desperately to think of cheap ways to make the game better, but WvW seems to be in Maintenance Mode.

Rather have hard hitting AoEs from bosses and some guards that's also AoE and need to be split up. Requires tactics and not just melting down like not knife through butter like they are now

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  • 5 weeks later...

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:How about better AI in WvW? Better bosses

I think just putting some strong knockback on the bosses would be enough. Something that would help swing a fight without simply being super stronk. Oh look: it already exists on the Fire and Air keep, why not just use that?

I'm trying desperately to think of cheap ways to make the game better, but WvW seems to be in Maintenance Mode.

Rather have hard hitting AoEs from bosses and some guards that's also AoE and need to be split up. Requires tactics and not just melting down like not knife through butter like they are now

Do you want raid-style lords? I certainly do not. I think a more measured approach is important.

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:How about better AI in WvW? Better bosses

I think just putting some strong knockback on the bosses would be enough. Something that would help swing a fight without simply being super stronk. Oh look: it already exists on the Fire and Air keep, why not just use that?

I'm trying desperately to think of cheap ways to make the game better, but WvW seems to be in Maintenance Mode.

Rather have hard hitting AoEs from bosses and some guards that's also AoE and need to be split up. Requires tactics and not just melting down like not knife through butter like they are now

Do you want raid-style lords? I certainly do not. I think a more measured approach is important.

I not sure to make that comparison.

But harder NPCs yes.

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@adammantium.8031 said:and an end to auto-upgrades and incentivizing scouting again...

Moving to auto-upgrades moved the fights out to the camps and I think was a good thing. Was nothing worse then when players would spend all that time and money to upgrade a borderland keep just to have your side not respond when it was under attack and all that time and money were lost. There is still less incentive to defend than to attack but they did mention they were looking for more incentives for both defending and attacking defended structures. K-Training is still quite strong even in EB.

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