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How do you feel about the imminent balance patch, and why?

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  • I'm teeming with dread

    Eh. Low expectations seems to be the way to go. Given that smaller balance attempts don't seem to be properly tested by whatever 'internal testing' procedures they have in place, there's no logical reason for a much more ambitious effort to turn out any better. That said, things have changed around the Anet studio - namely the cancellation of other projects and actually having a balance team. That might be enough to change things this time.

    Then again, these are the people who changed ranger shouts to "commands" for absolutely no reason other than to destroy another ranger option, and nerfed druid staff 3 well after nobody played bunker (at least effectively) anymore. That kind of nonsense doesn't get solved by more staff, it gets solved by... a basic understanding of a class/game mode/game itself.

  • Roxanne.6140Roxanne.6140 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020
    I'm teeming with dread

    Deleted, realised this is in pvp forum.

  • @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.

    Like Chronomancer ?

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020
    There's a what?

    It's hard to say what I feel about this patch since we don't really know what the scope and goal of it is, let alone any pre-patch notes.

    For balance alone, 800 changes seems...insane. One thing a lot of people ignore is that the game right now is actually pretty balanced if you are looking at it from the perspective of every class having some viable niche to fill. So for 800 changes to be needed, I'm guessing that there are at least a few redesigns on the table and the goal is to change how the game feels more than how it is balanced. If that's the case, then it's kind of impossible to give any opinion on what these changes will bring without at least a basic preview. Right now all we know is "LOL WE CHANGED EVERYTHING!!!11oneone!!!"

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hiraga Taichiru.1580 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.

    Like Chronomancer ?

    I wouldn't count on it.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    It's hard to say what I feel about this patch since we don't really know what the scope and goal of it is, let alone any pre-patch notes.

    For balance alone, 800 changes seems...insane. One thing a lot of people ignore is that the game right now is actually pretty balanced if you are looking at it from the perspective of every class having some viable niche to fill.

    sure, unkillable warriors, thieves and mesmers oneshotting you out of stealth (and even if they unload five skills in 0.2s it still results in a onshot), soulbeast damage (over 1.5k. Ignoring LoS), holosmith.

    The game is not balanced. It hasnt been for a long time and ANET should have acted at least a year ago.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The volume of changes they hint at is the OPPOSITE of what they need to be doing

    And what exactly should they be doing, according to you?

    Somehow me knowing exactly what they should be doing is an indication of knowing what they shouldn't be? Some bad logic right there.

    Judging by your tone, you believe that introducing so many changes at the same time is the correct path? Tell me, what makes you think that's going to work for them THIS TIME, considering in all the balance patches in the past, they demonstrate they struggle to achieve with the few changes they make? Didn't I just read they made HUNDREDS of changes in splits? Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me you think I'm wrong? I guess you REALLY want me to come back and call you out after the patch or something?

    I actually agree with you for a change. While I've long thought they needed to do more with balancing, they probably should have just made some general announcements about what they were planning then increased the scope and frequency of iteration.

    Part of me is excited, but I'm not totally convinced making 900 changes in one patch is the right way to go - numerous games have utterly killed themselves trying things of that magnitude. It's even more true without a full test strategy involving players. Seems like something an out-of-touch or amateur dev/leadership team would do.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Very hopeful

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.

    This makes me very hopeful, as a comprehensive and quickly iterative process of changes is exactly what the game needs at this point. I almost don't care if all my builds become irrelevant in the process as the stagnation in WvW is one of the main reasons I don't play so much now, I'm looking forward to a new meta and a move away from the instagib cheese builds and the unkillable bunker builds that frankly ruin small scale as a solo player. And yes, I'm saying this as a deadeye main, you can have the permastealth instagib DE build if other classes lose their equivalent builds and the game is more fun as a result.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Very hopeful

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.

    Nice attempt at spin already. PoF has been out for years now. Why are "the number of changes so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict"? What have all the other balance patches been? Are you admitting that they were all failures? What can't you internally test and predict at this point with PoF??? Is it a staffing issue or a competency issue?

    If it's a staffing issue, just take more time. It's better to get things right than look foolish and not catch things players catch immediately.

    If it's a competency issue, release the patch notes prior to going live and get some feedback.

    The reason you're in this boat to begin with is that you released patches without internally testing stuff and predicting the interactions. If you are ALREADY admitting that will be the case with this balance patch, you've failed from the start.

    Nobody could take your internal testing seriously before when you released fewer changes that had to be hotfixed. Many of those things that had to be hotfixed could have been identified in 10 minutes of internal testing or 1 button push. Some changes weren't enough and classes went a full year and counting being OP. Now you're already admitting similar issues with this patch? WOW...forgive the pun...cuz that's the game I'm playing now (classic) because you guys failed so miserably.

    Thanks for the warning at least.

    While I get your sentiment, Ben is correct in saying it's pretty much impossible to change 800-900 variables in a system as complex as GW2 and get predictable results right off the bat. Most iterative processes change one variable at a time while keeping others constant as controls to accurately judge the effect, this number of changes is going to be unpredictable to a degree no matter what they do.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020
    I'm teeming with dread

    "800-900 objects have been changed so far."
    And none of them will add any sort of depth or diversity to this game's combat cycle. I chose the blue box because there wasn't a "Got my movie popcorn ready" option.

  • I'm teeming with dread

    as i see battles not as the main problem of (the main format of the game that i play) Wvw, i'm extremly curios what this huge balance will bring. rather a bit concerned; like you cannot put pvp and wvw in the same boat - and fixes that are good for one might be bad for the other, i hope this has been considered.

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭
    There's a what?

    Radical idea: Have a public test server or a private one where people can test changes before they go live and give feedback. Including a wvw server instance (just make it one EB map) so guilds and pugs can test changes and give feedback.

    Launching such huge changes without proper testing will mean we'll have lots of issues which could have been avoided with some player testing.

  • "Do what you want but do something"

  • kratan.4619kratan.4619 Member ✭✭✭
    There's a what?

    It is pretty much just going to shift the meta to a different class/build. There will always be a meta, it is unavoidable, unless there is only one class/build combination that all players must play. The best that could happen is the meta is closer to the other classes in effectiveness.

  • Low expectations.

    Allow me to elaborate - I just recently came back to GW2 after about 7 or 8 years of a break. I loved WvW even back when there were no rewards for it, but time and other interest made me put the game aside.

    I paid full price for the base game. I can't afford the expansions right now, which basically means WvW is a lot of running around far behind the "zerg" getting picked off by the usual mounted enemy players. The fact that in WvW gear imbalance (when I left, exotics were highly sought-after, and a precursor weapon already got you in the top-tier performance bracket, heh) compounds class imbalance between xpacs and core game didn't really make me want to hang around much, despite really liking, conceptually, that game mode.

    This made me check out sPvP. The first tens of matches were a very interesting learning experience, but the longer I play, the more the power imbalance between core builds and expansion specializations becomes clear. Sure, maybe top players can take something core and still win against others, but what I see from the effects of the xpac specs is that they massively lower the skill level necessary to get extremely good results. Hell, I just had a match where my DPS warrior was getting out-healed by SB's pet after I managed to drop the owner. I had matches where my DPS thief was doing 300 damage to enemy SB while I was getting critted for 3000 by each barrage hit. Then you have the nigh-invulnerable FBs running around, Daredevils trololoing through entire groups with near constant evade, Weavers, and bears, oh my.

    I don't have great hopes for any incoming changes, because I strongly suspect they will have an even greater impact on core builds than they do on the "meta" xpac ones.

    I saw somebody on this forum throw a very interesting suggestion - give core professions also a "specialization" line - whether by turning one of the already existing ones into "core-only," or a brand new. Make them not just a poor man's choice for (at my skill level) mostly feeding, but actually capable of going against the "meta" xpac builds.

    Again, I'm not a "free-to-play" account. But if having expansions is required to have a non-frustrating experience in PvP, especially at lower skill level, you won't be getting too many players to sustain the usual attrition of player base.

  • Very hopeful

    Hi :)
    I would suggest devs to bring some more love to dead specializations in pvp/wvw(Renegade, Chronomancer, Druid, Tempest).
    I am mostly loving to play renegade in pvp(i am good one, platinum) but there are few problems with that class.

    First of all shortbow spell 2 "Bloodbane Path" fires 3 arrows from different angles, and belive or not if target is moving(not even dodging) arrows miss/not hit the target.
    Shortbow spell 3 "Sevenshot" it is just impossible to hit your target with all 7 arrows. You need to be 900 range distant from target, you need to aim and your target needs to not move.
    We need rework on these 2 spells for renegade's shortbow because those spells are just bugged, bad.
    Like give me 3 sec retaliation arrow on 2. spell that does 0 dmg better than something that is bad but also rework 3. spell to spread arrows from center to max range instead of merging them...

    Next thing,
    F3 renegade spell "Citadel Bombardment" is just not worth to use, that spell costs too much energy for so low rewards, missiles that barely hit anything even if you aim perfectly.
    F2 gives aoe might to allies and yourself, F4 gives alacrity to allies and yourself, why wouldn't you just rework F3 to give retaliation to allies and yourself?

    Next one,
    Renegade traits: Major Adept "Blood Fury" and Major Master " Heartpiercer" that gives bonuses to bleeding, i would merge these 2 traits into one trait.

    To fill empty trait slot i would design new trait that would increase number of your "Kalla's Fervor" stacks to 10 from 5.

    There is another clunky, not useful trait and that is: Major Master "Sudden Reversal".
    Mechanic behind this trait is really good, but what we need about that stun break-knockdown instead of just going for protection(boon)-summons trait is: larger radius like 360 or larger and unblockable knockdown, other words it is just not worth to use ever(you gamble to maybe use that knockdown for sustain....).

    Summons are easy to interupt/kill and when they are disabled/interupted, you lose their effect and you waste energy. I would give initial stability for 3 seconds to all summons.

    Bleeding in renegades kit is just not enough, you need to reduce power in specialization and increase condition-bleeding option. Renegade just has auto attacks, spell 2 that is very bad and summon that isn't that powerful for bleeding damage. Bleeding damage is lowered and harder to success maximum amount of dps than other classes like mesmer,necro, ranger etc. I suggest you to either add more bleeding options/spells/unique traits like ranger has/necro/mesmer(on crit apply bleeding) or just remove bleeding from renegades kit.

    _Personally i think renegade is designed for doing mixed and life siphon damage but i don't personally think it should be just only for doing damage, instead it needs some unique mechanic that will make it funny to play, i think khalla's fevor is not funny design and its effect needs some changes( not rework, because many things are designed over it). About khalla's fevor, i would like option for it to be consumable effect, like get 10 stacks of it and you get ability to consume its stacks for some unique iconic effect that is designed over renegade. _

    About chrono, i think you need to rework it again, buff clones health, add chill combined with slow as you gave quickness combined with alacrity, to fit faster time/slower time design for class.

    About druid, it is just purely pve healer class that is played in pvp as bunker that has not very good at the moment, i am not sure what i would change for it but it needs some more love over its design.

    About tempest, it is viable in pvp and wvw but it needs more sustain as all your overloaded spells are melee. It just has very high cooldowns and class is predictable and counterable but its real power is not that big. In order to balance it with current long cooldowns and predictable/counterable playstyle, you need to make Auras more powerful for their duration, like enchanced fire, water, air, rock effect than just normal current ones.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020
    There's a what?

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.

    You keep talking about the size being really big but how big is it compared to a pretty normal balance pass like this?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018

    He did say every skill and trait has been reviewed. Should give some idea about scope and size.

    Reviewed but not necessarily changed.

    He said the amount of changes will be hard to even put out on a note. Does that explain it better?

    How is writing patch notes hard? You just type them. If I was typing patch notes instead of my own post I'd be doing it right now. Think about that.

    Typing up the notes itself isn't the problem. For the splits alone, the list is finished. We're discussing how to present the notes a digestible way and in a way that makes it easier on us to follow feedback conversations.

    Late to this party. I would personally divide changes as follows:

    Overall changes to game systems (if any)
    Systems
    Sigils
    Runes
    Stats

    Changes by class (duh!)
    Unsplit changes
    Weapons
    Utilities
    Traits

    Split changes, denote if it is sPvP or WvW or both. If different values right the value for each game mode
    Weapons
    Utilities
    Traits

    If presented for discussion, I would probably post the overall changes (assuming none of these are PvE) in the sPvP forums and WvW forums.

    For each class, I would post a thread for feedback in that class' forum.

  • SPESHAL.9106SPESHAL.9106 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:

    Nice attempt at spin already. PoF has been out for years now. Why are "the number of changes so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict"? What have all the other balance patches been? Are you admitting that they were all failures? What can't you internally test and predict at this point with PoF??? Is it a staffing issue or a competency issue?

    If it's a staffing issue, just take more time. It's better to get things right than look foolish and not catch things players catch immediately.

    If it's a competency issue, release the patch notes prior to going live and get some feedback.

    The reason you're in this boat to begin with is that you released patches without internally testing stuff and predicting the interactions. If you are ALREADY admitting that will be the case with this balance patch, you've failed from the start.

    Nobody could take your internal testing seriously before when you released fewer changes that had to be hotfixed. Many of those things that had to be hotfixed could have been identified in 10 minutes of internal testing or 1 button push. Some changes weren't enough and classes went a full year and counting being OP. Now you're already admitting similar issues with this patch? WOW...forgive the pun...cuz that's the game I'm playing now (classic) because you guys failed so miserably.

    Thanks for the warning at least.

    While I get your sentiment, Ben is correct in saying it's pretty much impossible to change 800-900 variables in a system as complex as GW2 and get predictable results right off the bat. Most iterative processes change one variable at a time while keeping others constant as controls to accurately judge the effect, this number of changes is going to be unpredictable to a degree no matter what they do.

    The point is that PoF has been out for years and there SHOULDN'T be a need to change 800-900 variables at this stage if they didn't screw things up previously. I'm totally ok with them fixing things at this point and it being a large patch. However, Ben is admitting the SAME problem that caused them to screw things up previously. Thus, you are just shuffling the deck instead of truly FIXING things.

    I'm saying they should take whatever time is needed or release the notes PRIOR to release to get as much intel as possible. It really shouldn't be that hard at this stage of PoF to predict things...assuming they have actually been playing the game all this time and have competent individuals.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:

    Nice attempt at spin already. PoF has been out for years now. Why are "the number of changes so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict"? What have all the other balance patches been? Are you admitting that they were all failures? What can't you internally test and predict at this point with PoF??? Is it a staffing issue or a competency issue?

    If it's a staffing issue, just take more time. It's better to get things right than look foolish and not catch things players catch immediately.

    If it's a competency issue, release the patch notes prior to going live and get some feedback.

    The reason you're in this boat to begin with is that you released patches without internally testing stuff and predicting the interactions. If you are ALREADY admitting that will be the case with this balance patch, you've failed from the start.

    Nobody could take your internal testing seriously before when you released fewer changes that had to be hotfixed. Many of those things that had to be hotfixed could have been identified in 10 minutes of internal testing or 1 button push. Some changes weren't enough and classes went a full year and counting being OP. Now you're already admitting similar issues with this patch? WOW...forgive the pun...cuz that's the game I'm playing now (classic) because you guys failed so miserably.

    Thanks for the warning at least.

    While I get your sentiment, Ben is correct in saying it's pretty much impossible to change 800-900 variables in a system as complex as GW2 and get predictable results right off the bat. Most iterative processes change one variable at a time while keeping others constant as controls to accurately judge the effect, this number of changes is going to be unpredictable to a degree no matter what they do.

    The point is that PoF has been out for years and there SHOULDN'T be a need to change 800-900 variables at this stage if they didn't screw things up previously. I'm totally ok with them fixing things at this point and it being a large patch. However, Ben is admitting the SAME problem that caused them to screw things up previously. Thus, you are just shuffling the deck instead of truly FIXING things.

    I'm saying they should take whatever time is needed or release the notes PRIOR to release to get as much intel as possible. It really shouldn't be that hard at this stage of PoF to predict things...assuming they have actually been playing the game all this time and have competent individuals.

    There's no point for a few reasons:

    • A lot of people on the forums are incredibly biased.
    • A lot are first order thinkers and you would need second order thinking at least.
    • Many have a poor grasp of all aspects of the game leading to bad ideas.
    • You need to understand the relationships between classes, traits, skills, roles and what's holding everything in line.
    • There will be a lot of disagreements which might not lead to anything actionable.

    To put it bluntly the scope of changes is so big and complex that quite frankly it's going to be a mess for a few months and outside of something being very over represented or needlessly oppressive the community should be ignored for a while so devs can focus on their job.

    As for PoF, what led to the state of the game now isn't directly the balance patches and changes, it was the mentality and philosophy behind the expansions and elite specs. They were marketed as side steps, to fill a niche or bring a new role, what specialisations ended up being is trait line++ almost feeling like it was 2 or 3 trait lines in 1, same with skills. The player base also has their share of blame too, we went out and bought it all, we played it all, we sent back the data to them saying "We love elite specs and we love being overpowered" where it's taken this long to convince the captain that the ship isn't OK, it's on fire and that's a reef ahead.

    The real question people should be asking is has there's been a change in leadership/goals/philosophy and how long are they willing to commit to this idea that the game was better when it was slower.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Very hopeful

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:

    Nice attempt at spin already. PoF has been out for years now. Why are "the number of changes so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict"? What have all the other balance patches been? Are you admitting that they were all failures? What can't you internally test and predict at this point with PoF??? Is it a staffing issue or a competency issue?

    If it's a staffing issue, just take more time. It's better to get things right than look foolish and not catch things players catch immediately.

    If it's a competency issue, release the patch notes prior to going live and get some feedback.

    The reason you're in this boat to begin with is that you released patches without internally testing stuff and predicting the interactions. If you are ALREADY admitting that will be the case with this balance patch, you've failed from the start.

    Nobody could take your internal testing seriously before when you released fewer changes that had to be hotfixed. Many of those things that had to be hotfixed could have been identified in 10 minutes of internal testing or 1 button push. Some changes weren't enough and classes went a full year and counting being OP. Now you're already admitting similar issues with this patch? WOW...forgive the pun...cuz that's the game I'm playing now (classic) because you guys failed so miserably.

    Thanks for the warning at least.

    While I get your sentiment, Ben is correct in saying it's pretty much impossible to change 800-900 variables in a system as complex as GW2 and get predictable results right off the bat. Most iterative processes change one variable at a time while keeping others constant as controls to accurately judge the effect, this number of changes is going to be unpredictable to a degree no matter what they do.

    The point is that PoF has been out for years and there SHOULDN'T be a need to change 800-900 variables at this stage if they didn't screw things up previously. I'm totally ok with them fixing things at this point and it being a large patch. However, Ben is admitting the SAME problem that caused them to screw things up previously. Thus, you are just shuffling the deck instead of truly FIXING things.

    I'm saying they should take whatever time is needed or release the notes PRIOR to release to get as much intel as possible. It really shouldn't be that hard at this stage of PoF to predict things...assuming they have actually been playing the game all this time and have competent individuals.

    Like I say, I don't necessarily disagree with you in sentiment. Previous patches have been much smaller in scope so the effects should have been much more predictable, so you're correct in that regard, but looking at the scope of this patch there will be some uncertainty simply because of the scale of the changes. Making 5 changes to a condi build on a particular elite spec per patch (often less than that) that only affects PvP or WvW along with a few changes that nobody knew needed making is not comparable to 800-900 changes currently finalised just from skill splits, the implication being that there are more changes to come. Of course I'm assuming that these are meaningful changes; we'll find that much out when the patch drops.

    I'd also argue that the idea of elite specs is fundamentally flawed and that this is the real root problem facing the devs, especially when considering PoF elites. Some are flawed in a conceptual way (like scourge and deadeye, they're either going to be OP or kinda pointless due to their design choices and in deadeye's case it combines all the things that make people hate fighting rogues) and some are flawed because they simply do too much (firebrand being too good compared to other supports and holo skills basically making core engi redundant) or too little (druid post nerf) and some suffer from both causes (renegade). There is so much that needs changing and to their credit they've been trying to address that in recent months by introducing trade offs to particular specs (swipe, druid pets etc) although the results are debatable. In some ways having one massive patch that tries to deal with everything at once is better than 3 years worth of protracted smaller patches, if only as people don't get so fed up waiting for stuff to get looked at. This is in part why I'm cautiously optimistic, if they mess with everything at once and foul it up they are pretty much forced to commit more resources to fixing it than before, they have to do it faster than they have in the past because it will affect their bottom line if they don't.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • There's a what?

    I don't get why people complain about class imbalances.

    Try to find a way around it. Skilled players stomp you no matter what and if you die to an unskilled player who uses apparently an imbalanced class, then you just deserve to get owned.

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭✭

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Trash, just like always.
    The last patch that was actually put up by this cmc guy was worst patch in history of pof. game is ufnun.
    even this ben guy made a statement today that they know they don't know what they're doing
    and that there will be a need for future corrective balanced patches retrospectively
    reminer anet employees promised swiss in 2017
    dont expect anything from this company
    buncha liars

    I am with you... but be carefull.

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭✭

    @trixantea.1230 said:
    What patch? Where is it? What does it say??
    This is an unprofessional way to make polls and ask about players opinion :/

    Anet made a beautiful game (it is still beautiful), but treated sPVP like garbage, very unprofessional indeed.

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭✭

    Forget those "imminent patches" fix this... (fix your bots)

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Forget those "imminent patches" fix this... (fix your bots)

    now I won 11 :( so sad...

  • Kaburro.4712Kaburro.4712 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaburro.4712 said:
    Forget those "imminent patches" fix this... (fix your bots)

    And there is an explanation for those +15 +15... thare was this necro that was used to win every match at this hour but lost 2 games in a row and went to sleep.
    The way I know matchmaker it was his job to win those 2 matches (cos he is used to, just pew pew) but he did not... (and with this comments now I will get banned for life)

  • @phalaris.5134 said:
    I don't get why people complain about class imbalances.

    Try to find a way around it. Skilled players stomp you no matter what and if you die to an unskilled player who uses apparently an imbalanced class, then you just deserve to get owned.

    Perhaps because it's pretty disingenuous to pretend like expansion specializations don't offer much more than core classes? Like "meta" or not, the reason these (all xpac last I checked) builds exist is because they perform much better than alternatives.

    It's easy to say "try to find a way around it" when you're facing something that can do more things, better, and easier. Which is pretty much how a lot of the major offenders behave.

    Not to mention that it's far more difficult to figure out the weakness of something you can't get your hands on to test.

  • There's a what?

    @Lukasz.9476 said:

    @phalaris.5134 said:
    I don't get why people complain about class imbalances.

    Try to find a way around it. Skilled players stomp you no matter what and if you die to an unskilled player who uses apparently an imbalanced class, then you just deserve to get owned.

    Perhaps because it's pretty disingenuous to pretend like expansion specializations don't offer much more than core classes? Like "meta" or not, the reason these (all xpac last I checked) builds exist is because they perform much better than alternatives.

    It's easy to say "try to find a way around it" when you're facing something that can do more things, better, and easier. Which is pretty much how a lot of the major offenders behave.

    Not to mention that it's far more difficult to figure out the weakness of something you can't get your hands on to test.

    I totally understand your frustration. You can, with some dedication, buy with gems (if traded in for gold) game expansions if you feel that you need the newer class specialisations. I dare say that a skilled player can and will roll most players with core-classes. I feel not like that an offender is equal to someone who enjoys the game and supports the developer with some coin. You can't have everything for free, how else could you play for the first time?

    Truth be told, no matter what PvP forum you look into, the topics are always the same:

    1) Please Nerf
    2) OP classes / Balance Enquiry
    3) Unfair ...
    4) Remove this
    5) Paid advantages ...

    It is hard to find constructive topics. Anyhow, coming back to the topic, any imminent balance patch will carry a number of changes people will complain about. I feel for the devs as this is a neverending and multi-bacterial infection.

  • Lukasz.9476Lukasz.9476 Member ✭✭
    edited January 15, 2020

    @phalaris.5134 said:
    I totally understand your frustration. You can, with some dedication, buy with gems (if traded in for gold) game expansions if you feel that you need the newer class specialisations.

    Now sure how you see that as a solution (aside from gold trading being something Anet disapproves of last I heard). It does nothing to address the problem. It's not a case of "you feel that you need" - there are highly placed ranked players that likewise point out balance issues with expansion specializations vastly outperforming cores.

    @phalaris.5134 said:
    I dare say that a skilled player can and will roll most players with core-classes.

    Again, how is this an argument? And the same skilled player, faced with somebody running xpac spec at the same theoretical skill level, will likely lose.

    @phalaris.5134 said:
    You can't have everything for free, how else could you play for the first time?

    Stop. I did pay for this game.

    I should not be forced into a situation where my initial investment, that also included sPvP as part of the experience, requires now additional purchase just to avoid frustrating power imbalance.

    Again, this is not something that is coming just from "lel, l2p noob" people, and other threads on these boards confirm it. Even if you want to hand-wave my personal experience and conclusions based on playing with, presumably, other people of similar enough skill level. This is not a case of core builds being misused or unpopular because xpac specs are newer, but because they are simply better at what they do. Which is why they are the "meta" in the first place.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    There's a what?

    With the insane amount of changes, the only realistic hope is that they don't somehow make the balance worse. Because balance right now, is actually not even that bad.

    The real problems plaguing the PvP in this game are more or less to do with design. There are way too many builds in GW2 right now that, quite frankly, require little to no skill to play and basically build-carry people who are really just spamming their abilities in a rotation. Too many braindead builds that boil down to "Press 12345, then play passive/defensive while waiting for cooldowns". Too many builds that are centered around avoiding any counterplay rather than actually requiring people to learn anything. I come from playing Tera PvP back in its prime and that game, while flawed, required 1000x more skill and finesse than a great deal of the spam-happy builds that currently exist in GW2.

  • Very hopeful

    @mtnjkbm.7452 said:
    generally speaking, i think the balance patch doesent matter for the most part. i think it will do some good for like 10% of the pvp playerbase (p3 up to legendary players maybe also higher p2 players) to make the game a little more interesting and enjoyable for them which is good and should be the goal. (since they are at a level were tinkering with certain stats can be a deciding factor/ a gamechanger)
    BUT it wont matter for the rest of the pvp playerbase since it isnt the specific class balance that hinders players to climb higher ranks, its because of the awful matchmaking caused by the general empty pvp playerpool (you will experience your usual 500 - 50 stomps every 3rd or 4th match with or without a balance update, causing your rating to stagnate and/or even drop heavy), OR the lack of knowledge regarding rotation, map pressure (snowballing, overextending, plus oneing ect..)

    so to sum it up, you wont climb into plat 3 or something as a gold 3 player just because the classes get a numbers update. the balance patch wont either help against the flod of bots in almost every game nowadays, so you hitting 4k instead of 3k with an autoattack will do nothing if your botfriend is running into mid to suicide for the 10th time.
    the only thing that has some potential to really change some things for good or revitalize pvp imo are the 2vs2 or 15vs15 gamemodes.

    This is the best post I have read in the forums and strongly second it. Balance patches would do nothing if we have to soloQ in a 5v5 game mode or duoQ with 3 random players who won't coordinate with each other at all. If you hit 4k instead of 3k with your attacks or your CD is 20 seconds instead of 25 seconds, it makes no sense if your team mates don't care about any strategy and run around like bots. PvP will be revaitalized only when we will have seperate game modes of 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 10v10 and etc.

  • Very hopeful

    @SubZero.4319 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    . . . I'll go with a "there's a what?" option every time if you give us one, because I think people overstate how unbalanced this game is all the time . . . I'd rather see all the energy that goes into the heated balance debates that nobody can ever seem to agree with, go into something that benefits everyone on a larger and more permanent level.

    >

    I hear you, MCH.9751! Now, I'm pretty much still a newb to GuildWars 2—well, my official rank is Newb Corporal (NCpl.) Szubxero, Golf Co. 3rd Newbish Battalion, 7th Newbs Regiment (Rating N-6); my NOS (Newbish Occupational Specialty) is 37337 (Newbish Kluge Berserker). I started playing in late November and ponied up the paltry sum of $29.99 for the basic paid package. Hey! Don't look at me like that—Times are tough and I'm a starving student. xP I can say with complete confidence and utter faith that this was a wise decision, as I realized about an hour after I first started playing I was already exhibiting signs of clinical GW2 addictive disorder, and realized life was going to be painful without the game and especially it's kind-hearted, friendly, more than helpful community of the world's greatest and most talented MMORPG gamers. And it's a glorious world, this Tyria. For over a decade I was a fanatical WoW fundamentalist zealot, and I will always have a special place in my gamer's Hylian heart container for WoW, and still play from time to time. Anyway, forgive the digression.

    As much of a masterpiece as GuildWars 2 is, like all MMORPGs, there are some bugs, some "bad apple" players (well in my albeit limited but intense experience so far, at least, I haven't met a single, non-friendly-as-hell PC (or NPC for that matter xP)., and other things that aren't perfect. One of these uber-ubiquitous outrages is that every time a change in the mechanics, gameplay, UI/UX or even lore department occurs, whether it benefits the masses, enfeebles us or can be seen either way, there will always be a boat packed to the gunnels with whining and complaining about it, threatening to stop playing, believing it will absolutely RUIN the game's future and generally give the melodrama required to win an Academy Award or Oscar their best shot to convince the developers/project team to not affect the change. This almost always fails, of course, and I'm not a hypocrite, so I will mirthfully admit I've been guilty of such obscene, un-gamer-like acts of vulgarity and child-like tantrums on many occasions, but I hardly ever get that upset over changes to MMORPGs I play any more, because I realized (a) there is, statistically speaking a very low chance of success to change it, (b) it is only allowing them to control my emotions and I don't like other people controlling me, (c) as dope-kitten and gorgeous this game is, or any other for that matter (and since I'm an aspiring game developer start-up entrepreneur and life-long game programming/development fanatic, that's saying a lot), it's still just a game, and finally (d) nothing is ever quite as bad as we fear it will be. It might be bad, but things are never as bad as they feel or appear to be, and in general have a way of working themselves out, with patience and reason. Besides, a lot of the times after the changes happened I decided (grudgingly, at first xP) that many of them I actually liked, even if I still missed the non-changed pre-updated version and wish they could leave an option for both.

    Sorry for the long-winded reply. I'm just so glad someone else is sick of that cynical or pessimistic attitude and juvenile, passive-aggressive behavior and speech. Sometimes they really do make disgusting, kitten, numb-nutz-like changes, but not **that* often, and it's rarely worth leaving the game. Improvise, adapt, overcome, like Clint Eastwood said, and it'll all be good. Thanks for sharing your opinion! :+1:

    Very well written. I strongly agree with all that has been posted here. This is a beautiful game and for me it is a stress buster thing. I am playing for a long time and there are a lot that I am still exploring and learning. Of course I wish PvP can be more structured actually and I am hopeful that going forward the game will be improving only.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Part of me is excited, but I'm not totally convinced making 900 changes in one patch is the right way to go - numerous games have utterly killed themselves trying things of that magnitude. It's even more true without a full test strategy involving players. Seems like something an out-of-touch or amateur dev/leadership team would do.

    But there is a full test strategy involving players - its just, that these tests are not done on (public) test servers, but with the delivered product on the normal servers. B)

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can't wait to see what the new complains will be and who is going to be willing to learn the new facets and tactics of their profession(Not a lot.), it's a forgotten art and mocked upon.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tycura.1982 said:
    Mfw Ben votes for option 3

    Feelsbadtohavenoface.jpg

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    It's going to be somewhat chaotic for a while. And I'm sure there will be overlooked things or unintentional problems. The number of changes is so large that all possible interactions are impossible to predict. Our goal is to be able to respond relatively quickly to issues that come up. And there will probably need to be a decent size follow-up release to continue to refine. Balance is a long term commitment, not a one release solution.

    Dunno man. You guys are hyping this thing, but did not give us any info to indicate how is this patch any big. This rarely ends up well.

    They said 800-900 changes just for wvw and pvp

  • @DriV.6203 : Although I totally agree with you and your mind/ideas, I still not see why classes should have more sustain : It's because there are a high risk that a player can regenerate quickly his whole life that they have to be killed fast (but also rather because they can be killed fast).

    The thing that make me really laugh is how "skilled" and "imaginative" you needed to be in order to play engineer times ago, when now, it became a spaming class.

    Or also, how useless, or should I say, how destroyed... No, how OBLITERATED the trait "Deathly Chill" (DoT on chill) became, just because developpers couldn't find a balanced adjustement at time, and then considered this trait as "something cancer that should never exist and broke the game", whereas the nature of the game litteraly changed over years.

  • DriV.6203DriV.6203 Member
    edited January 21, 2020
    I'm teeming with dread

    @la penombre.2415 said:
    @DriV.6203 : Although I totally agree with you and your mind/ideas, I still not see why classes should have more sustain : It's because there are a high risk that a player can regenerate quickly his whole life that they have to be killed fast (but also rather because they can be killed fast).

    The thing that make me really laugh is how "skilled" and "imaginative" you needed to be in order to play engineer times ago, when now, it became a spaming class.

    Or also, how useless, or should I say, how destroyed... No, how OBLITERATED the trait "Deathly Chill" (DoT on chill) became, just because developpers couldn't find a balanced adjustement at time, and then considered this trait as "something cancer that should never exist and broke the game", whereas the nature of the game litteraly changed over years.

    Well first, damage, conditions, cc and overall statistics extremes (from complete tank to a glass cannon) need to be tunned down before sustain changes could be even addressed. With better class sustain, fights are naturally longer, meaning that there are far more oportunities to see players abilities (real skill). In longer fights, players also do mistakes and that should be a cullpit of their doom. In longer fight, spaming should not be enought and right use of the right skills should be essential. Now however, players just play with their feeling and just spam their skills rotations and hope for the best as there is just so many things that is going on, that there is literally no way to have situational awareness.
    Some build have more skills options (engi, firebrand, ele) which can be a blessing or a curse in a balance and in a hand of experienced player it can be a awesome tool. There was a time where DD ele with all his skills was a unkillable king on the battlefield with superb sustain. After a nerf, he became this
    Deathly Chill is a good example but there were many. It is just sad.

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I'm just looking forward to all the posts about being nerfed/changed/toned down. "My class needs that to do this", "Why did you nerf ? Without it I can't do that", "What about this other class?!", "You changed the wrong thing" aka didn't do what I personally thought was best, "My muscle memory!!!!!", "You ruined my class/build", etc.

    People have gotten way to used to the elevated level of power over the past few years and the patch should be and hopefully is a massive system shock.

    Bring it on! I'm ready! This community has gotten WAAAAYYY too spoiled with the current powercreep. It's ridiculous.

  • Big patches creates power issues. Change a hundred variables and you get a million variations etc.yesterdaya weak build becomes today's problem, and so it begins again.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Phantaram.4816Phantaram.4816 Member ✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    I'm teeming with dread

    Lower power creep. Cooldowns mean something. No infinite 1v1s or tanky stuff anymwhere.

  • I'm teeming with dread

    To put it bluntly, none of the balance patches will make a difference as long as ppl can swap characters once they are in a match. All these patches do is shake up the meta, but most of ranked players gonna switch to something that is fotm and surprise, surprise counters most of the opposite team. Have them play on a char they qued up with and see then who makes it to the leaderboard.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Very hopeful

    @Macello.9276 said:
    To put it bluntly, none of the balance patches will make a difference as long as ppl can swap characters once they are in a match. All these patches do is shake up the meta, but most of ranked players gonna switch to something that is fotm and surprise, surprise counters most of the opposite team. Have them play on a char they qued up with and see then who makes it to the leaderboard.

    Yeah, Idk why you're allowed to swap. It would be way more interesting to have to tailor your picked professions/build in that 1:30 prep time to the opposing team instead of just swapping to a hard counter profession.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    There's a what?

    @Macello.9276 said:
    To put it bluntly, none of the balance patches will make a difference as long as ppl can swap characters once they are in a match. All these patches do is shake up the meta, but most of ranked players gonna switch to something that is fotm and surprise, surprise counters most of the opposite team. Have them play on a char they qued up with and see then who makes it to the leaderboard.

    Having high-ranked people forcibly change to a random character on their account might shake up things, too.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2020
    Very hopeful

    @Macello.9276 said:
    To put it bluntly, none of the balance patches will make a difference as long as ppl can swap characters once they are in a match. All these patches do is shake up the meta, but most of ranked players gonna switch to something that is fotm and surprise, surprise counters most of the opposite team. Have them play on a char they qued up with and see then who makes it to the leaderboard.

    Allowing class swaps means lowering matchmaking RNG.
    Otherwise you get situations like this:
    1) Queue as mesmer
    2) Have 2 thieves in opponent team
    3) Alt + F4

  • Shadow.1345Shadow.1345 Member ✭✭✭
    Very hopeful

    One thing some of the replies on here seem to be getting wrong is this isn't so much of a "balance" patch as it is a patch to scale back all the years of power creep since HoT that has been cancerous to this game mode. As a veteran player in terms of balance the game has improved as far as the amount of viable builds there are. Ask any of the vets and they can tell you about when there used to be like 3-5 viable builds in the whole game. Granted we didn't have elite specs so maybe I'm not right on this but the pvp builds on metabattle used to be severely limited for about a year or two before HoT was released.
    The problem, as other have pointed out, are all of the 100-0 "braindead" builds out there. If you don't know what I mean by 100-0 (if you do don't get triggered by me clarifying for those that don't), it means when you take somebody down from 100% health down to 0% health in under 2 seconds. Previous to all the powercreep and elite there were builds that could do this but they also were made out of glass and were pretty much one trick ponies in combat.
    Take for example everybody's favorite class: the Mesmer. Pre-HoT the main build was the Power Shatter Mesmer. Was it good? Yes. Could it pretty much delete you? Hell yes. Was it hard to get the burst chain down for the build? Not at all, really. Could that burst chain be countered with a little bit of skill? Absolutely. The burst combo would come at you fast but once you recognized it was coming you could avoid almost the entire thing with one dodge roll. After that all the damage the build had was put on CD and the Mesmer was left with little to do but disengage. Now compare that to the CI without CI Mirage build with all of it's evades and damage. And to think people used to call Power Shatter Core Mesmer OP. If we had only known back then what the word OP really meant.
    Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying there shouldn't be any powerful builds that can delete you in under 2 seconds. I am just saying for those builds the counter play should be just as easy to perform as the burst, if not easier. Like with the Power Shatter example, you could come out of stealth and put somebody in the downstate very fast and that was what made it so powerful. It's weakness was that all the skills activated were activated so quickly that the time span of one dodge roll would avoid most of the abilities used. After that, that Mesmer build had almost no real damage and no Marauder Amulet for the extra health. If you were a damage build that meant running Zerker.
    Also don't let this make you think everything was perfect back then either. The game had it's balance issues back then too. The thing was if your build was tanky it was just tanky. If your build had sustained damage it lacked a lot of burst damage. If it had burst damage it generally lacked sustained damage. If your build had sustained and burst damage it lacked any kind of sustain against damage or it had active defenses that required more mindfulness to use. Sure there some exceptions to that but they generally got nerfed pretty hard too. Like the old Unicorn Thief build until it got reinvented under the D/D condi Daredevil, which pretty much underlines the real problem this patch intends to fix. The fact that we have so many overtuned builds that make the game unfun to play for a lot of people because of how unforgiving so many of the builds you face can be to even a single mistake by a player.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    I'm teeming with dread

    Balance? .. Meh

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • @Shadow.1345 said:
    Take for example everybody's favorite class: the Mesmer. Pre-HoT the main build was the Power Shatter Mesmer. Was it good? Yes. Could it pretty much delete you? Hell yes. Was it hard to get the burst chain down for the build? Not at all, really. Could that burst chain be countered with a little bit of skill? Absolutely. The burst combo would come at you fast but once you recognized it was coming you could avoid almost the entire thing with one dodge roll. After that all the damage the build had was put on CD and the Mesmer was left with little to do but disengage. Now compare that to the CI without CI Mirage build with all of it's evades and damage. And to think people used to call Power Shatter Core Mesmer OP. If we had only known back then what the word OP really meant.

    Yes, before, against burst strategies, you had a great time to breathe and focus to your next way to attack your opponent once you dodged the burst. Now, most builds seems to be able to constantly burst and DPS, which mean that you can't allow yourself to do other thing than dodge or attacking very agressively.

  • SPESHAL.9106SPESHAL.9106 Member ✭✭✭

    Imagine owning a business and buying a piece of software that only got updated/patched for problems a couple times a year...then...imagine that those small/slow patches had lots of errors and needed hotfixing constantly...now...imagine that software company saying that those previous patches really didn't solve the problems, so they are doing a massive patch, but expect the same things experienced with previous patches...only worse.

    I understand game developers get more leeway than business software, but the ridiculousness of STILL having to patch a piece of software out for several years AND the patch will inevitably cause issues they cant foresee is unfathomable under any metric for competency.