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A challenge: no Firebrands zerg!


Syrus.2174

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You always hear how essential Firebrands are to a zerg and playing on a Tier 1 EU server we often face stronger enemies with better organization and/or better class composition in their zergs.It made me quite interested in the question, what if an organized zerg attempted to take a defended T3 keep, preferably an EB keep or the enemy's home garrision (not on RBL), without Firebrands? Would it be possible against an unorganized group of equal or near equal strength or are zergs really that depended on one class?

I would love to see someone do this, to be honest. One zerg, at least 30 people, no Firebrands, take a defended T3 keep.

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I believe that theoretically you could skip firebrands by pumping in more regular scrapper healers and shoutheal spellbreakers. You loose what firebrands offer yes, but you get alot more stealth, reflects and some stab, both of these offer tons of cleanse and frequent healing, plus more barrier/resistance/vigor and boon strip bubbles. I definetly believe that a good commander can still make use of this and not really "need" those firebrands.

We are unlikely to ever see a practical "test" and even if we do... situations always vary. Not to mention, you learn how to counter things. Any class can be effiecent at least once. Usually trying to force certain classes result in just bad players on them which die anyway. I mean its the same for firebrands - some die instantly, some can tank anything. You definetly do not want to ask me to come on a firebrand.

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In practice NO.

Defenders have an advantage. Firebrands just offer too much for large groups to be completely left out.

For example I leading defense of home bl T3 bay yesterday evening (EU tier 1). As a ranged commander and lacking a melee ball, I had to use different tactics. Enemy had a 30-50 player zerg, but it was quite easily snipe their rear (basically those who don't stay in the ball, usually soft targets like necros or eles). Once enemy loses enough players, they disengage, to avoid complete wipe. The T3 keep inner was never even close being breached and I would have of course used emergency waypoint before that to call in help.

Firebrands offer a lot of reflects. I can imagine that backline sniping would be even easier without the enemy zerg having any firebrands.

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It's not really possible to take a t3 objective against a same sized group regardless of either groups composition. Unless the group with the T3 keep are literally uplevels who don't know how to play the game.

In terms of FB necessity to a group, at this juncture the things that make them 'necessary' isn't really true anymore. You could get the needed stab uptime from a DH + revenant. It's just not worth it to try to change a bunch of builds to get the same end effect.

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

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@God.2708 said:It's not really possible to take a t3 objective against a same sized group regardless of either groups composition. Unless the group with the T3 keep are literally uplevels who don't know how to play the game.

I've seen this happen quite a lot with organized zergs vs unorganized randoms defending a T3 keep. If the defender's numbers are at most equal, but probably less, and the enemy has a disciplined organized zerg, they can easily end up farming the defender in the keep or take it. Even if the defender starts out with more people, after killing them a few times many usually abbandon the defense.

I'm just really curious if Firebrands really are that essential to a working, powerful zerg and if there isn't an alternative way to build a zerg to do well.Because ... if that isn't possible, wouldn't it mean they are probably too powerful in that role?

I'm neither in a WvW guild, nor a commander myself, so I hoped for someone with the ability to show - look, we can make this work even without Firebrands and crush the enemy just as before - or demonstrate that not having this class around will put you at a severe disadvantage. Just to change the game up a bit.

As a side not, on the defending side I, again and again lately, have come to realize that if you don't bring boon removal / corrupt, even with great numbers you will just not have a chance at defeating an organized zerg.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

@Fish.2769 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it

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No problem with no FBs. There are other support classes that provide enough of other buffs/heals sans aegis and constant stab. Ok, fine. No one will have that. People put way too much focus on the firebrand. While you are doing that, the scrappers and tempests are out cleansing, providing constant heals, giving protection, cc'ing, regen, group stun breaks. The support warrior, omg, is out cleansing your average tempest and, in some cases, the best tempests, while providing healing, vigor, might, fury. So go ahead, focus only on the firebrands.If a player's goal is to play WvW, a group-centric competitive game mode, and always kill without any resistance from your foe, you are playing the wrong game mode. Perhaps Anet needs to provide a map where all boons, buffs, etc are removed, no one can buff/heal/cleanse anyone else, no food buffs can be applied, no gear, just you vs the other player au naturel and leave WvW to the group players, where masses work in concert to overcome their challengers.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it

The other zerg has firebrands... It was asked for a zerg setup that could beat a meta setup.

That might work 1 or 2 times, but as soon as they get wary it wont work anymore, they would kite you to death

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it

The other zerg has firebrands... It was asked for a zerg setup that could beat a meta setup.

That might work 1 or 2 times, but as soon as they get wary it wont work anymore, they would kite you to death

Scrappers keep up superspeed and spb has some of the best resistance access in the game. Gl kiting if they get on top of you, and there's no reason for them to engage at all if they can't get into melee

Edit: my bad, forgot this thread was about taking a t3 without fbs. In that case just stack revs, weavers, and dh with scrapper and tempest heals. Inside a structure it's easy to nuke with dh and weaver since movement is restricted

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I like the responses so far, gives some things to think about regarding FBs in WvW.

I picked a fight over a T3 Keep for the simple reason of that being the hardest objective to take, and where it matters less how good the defender is, and more how well the attackers zerg is composed. An unorganized group would usually stand no chance in open field due to the lack of coordination alone, in a keep though, it's more about how well the attacker can sustain. At least from my observations.

It's a bit sad, but absolutely not unexpected to not see anyone try this, would've been fun if some top tier guild of WvW could disprove that a zerg without FBs probably won't work.

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