Condi Weaver Balance

[Arheundel.6451]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Sustain is a bit tricky; as for me I'm not use to sustain with fire and earth (focus), but DPS is brainless.So yes, you need to be accurate to avoid resistance, cleanses, boon corrupt etc .... like for everyone in PvP (except Mirage, he doesn't care) but being able to put 4k dmg + 3~4k burning per tic on 1, 2 and even 3 foes with one short burst (sword #2 + pyrovortex, primordial stance + glyph) it's insane. + the constant burning application otherwise.

Glyph of Elemental Power is really too powerful : effect last 25sec, CD is 25sec ... breakstun, no interval for strikes. This skill needs a review and fire weaver will be more balanced, busrt would need a better reading of the fight.

It's a single stack of burn guys...once I use discipline war with shout cleanse, I can easily outpace the fire weaver...unless I am fighting a pro who outplay me, stop it guys pls...the class is super fucking weak unless you become a demi-god on it at which point you should just go and faceroll hard on any other class once you reach that level.

Once you play ele for long enough, it's super easy to outpace the average ele, the class is so pathetic that is hard to put it words anymore...this comes from somebody with 8k hrs on ele, man the utilities are piss poor garbage compared to a warrior, a guardian or rangers...the traitlines save : Fire and Weaver lines..are shameful, sad and upsetting.

I repeat, unless you're some P3 pro ele, it's quite easy to faceroll fire weavers...I mean 400 hrs on warrior and I am trashing P1 weavers...the whole class is a joke sadly ......

[TheGreatEdgelord.7048]

What attracts many people to complain about fire weavers, regardless of motive or coherence, is the fact that this build exploits the thing that most lacks on Gw2's pvp playerbase: disengaging - and how and when to do it. Fire Weavers are practically innofensive outside of their 180 range damage threshold: wait for primordial stance and glyph to go off, watchout if they're fire-attuned, be aware of Pyro Vortex and Lava Skin, stunbreak/evade Gale and you'll avoid almost all their damage. Their sustain is completely within the expectations of a build that uses a +560 healing power amulet - and with access to water fields and blast finishers (and, a very important highlight: it is a light armor melee build). The stability uptime given by primordial stance and bolstered elements single handedly is 20% - which is essential for keeping within the 180 range from your foe; and considering the amount of cc-heavy builds, this is perfectly adequate. And, also, this is a mostly single-condi condition damage build; as cleansing prioritizes the condition that's applied the most, minor (although frequent) cleansing can mitigate most of the damage.

My complaint about fire weavers, in spite of those who refer to this build as one of "high skill floor/cap", is how passive their damage is: proc primordial stance, glyph and lava skin and keep within a 180 range from your target, disengage and sustain if needed, but that's all. It might be tricky to keep chasing some classes with a single 12s cd 600 range gap closer, and the overall sustain and survivability of this build involves some semi-esoteric nuances: you cannot heal and cleanse effectively at the same time (as you clean on fire and heal on water/earth); your damage mitigation relies heavely on dodges (and thus additional knowledge of your enemy combos). Not to mention how comically vulnerable this build is to boon corrupt and chill. Overall, to disappointment of those who claim the opposite, surviving is indeed the most skill-based thing on fire weavers.

Imo, fire weavers aren't that op by themselves. However, anet has nerfed every other build that could effectively counter it to the point that this build quickly surfaced to gw2's pvp metagame. I hope those working on the next big balance keep it in mind; otherwise we'll return to the same status quo of "balance patchs" which only deletes a particular build from pvp whislt ignoring the immense range of interplayer strategical possibilities, so that another extremely overpowered and broken build/comp emmerges shortly after; taking the dead build's podium.

[Axl.8924]

Would condi work on temptest? just curious has anyone tried?

[Megametzler.5729]

@Axl.8924 said:Would condi work on temptest? just curious has anyone tried?

Naah, it wouldn't. It lacks condi application outside of fire, and due to fire overload (which would probably be strong, but at a low range), fire access is limited. But that's just theory, give it a try and share experiences! :smile:

[Axl.8924]

I think it isn't going to work and be strong enough. At most i was getting 8-9 burns.

[otto.5684]

It is not the amount of condi at all. In PvE both mirage and FB can outburst weaver. Condi FB in PvE is a burst build. What makes weaver too strong is combination of good sustainability, good mobility, decent stability uptime and insane uptime on evades. Some of these need to be hit (evades uptime needs to go down a lot).

[MyPuppy.8970]

Evades are fine, sword ele needs it. Which by nature is a hybrid weapon just like dagger, but with less range. The issue is the passive playstyle - evading and resustaining while farting - same as condi mirage used to be. And even then it's only effective when you have to stay in a small area. Like who ever dies to a fire weaver on graveyard in Foefire?

[GoQ.1048]

90% of the pvp population if u go after the forum respoinses.

[supreme.3602]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Would condi work on temptest? just curious has anyone tried?

Naah, it wouldn't. It lacks condi application outside of fire, and due to fire overload (which would probably be strong, but at a low range), fire access is limited. But that's just theory, give it a try and share experiences! :smile:

Although it's not PvP, I beg to differ.

[Megametzler.5729]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Would condi work on temptest? just curious has anyone tried?

Naah, it wouldn't. It lacks condi application outside of fire, and due to fire overload (which would probably be strong, but at a low range), fire access is limited. But that's just theory, give it a try and share experiences! :smile:

Although it's not PvP, I beg to differ.

I always assume equal skill level. :wink:

[Virdo.1540]

its not about the damage. it should do way more.... The problem and bad balance here are the TONS of heals & Invulvns

[Yasai.3549]

@Axl.8924 said:How effective is weaver in SPVP_ just curious .

Fireweaver has a very distinct weakness, being that it has very limited chase potential.

This is not an issue in PvP however, because yu are required to contest points to win, which Fireweaver likes, because it puts yu in their burn range very comfortably and they can use all their kit against yu without even trying.

If yu prod at it from range with high power burst, like a Rifle Warrior or Deadeye or even getting a Revenant to +1 them during a fight, they can crumple easily.

Imo the entire Conquest gamemode in general is very unfair to a majority of builds.

Stuff like DH and Scourge absolutely abuse the gamemode's core objective and mechanics of capture points to bring out the full cancerous potential of their class.

Stuff like a stack of traps 1 shotting people, constant Condition harass and Boon corrupt or Turtles sitting on points for years wouldn't be a thing without a specific objective tied to win condition shackling players to it.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

@Yasai.3549 said:Imo the entire Conquest gamemode in general is very unfair to a majority of builds.

Stuff like DH and Scourge absolutely abuse the gamemode's core objective and mechanics of capture points to bring out the full cancerous potential of their class.

Stuff like a stack of traps 1 shotting people, constant Condition harass and Boon corrupt or Turtles sitting on points for years wouldn't be a thing without a specific objective tied to win condition shackling players to it.

You can't blame DH or Scourge's gameplay just because it is OP in some context. Look at their abilities in www roaming, it's almost the opposite (for traps and shades) .IMO, it's just GW2 very basic pvp mode, compared to their GW1 masterpiece.Different pvp mode was a solid base of enjoyment and success. One reason I love GW1 pvp and hate GW2 one.Capturing points is boring. Team annihilation was something I loved to play.

[Yasai.3549]

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

You can't blame DH or Scourge's gameplay just because it is OP in some context. Look at their abilities in www roaming, it's almost the opposite (for traps and shades) .

I only mentioned Conquest gamemode because we are talking about Condi Weaver and its strengths, and I'm just mentioning examples which similarly uses the gamemode's objectives to solidify their classes' strengths.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range. How else can it be effective that way? And shouldn't it excel on point with such extreme limitations? Has any other class ever had no mobility and no range?

[Fueki.4753]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range.

Part of the problem is that Arenanet has designed another melee spec for the class with the lowest Health and lowest armour.Of course they had to either overtune it with damage and/or active mitigation, or else they die without doing anything.

And the other half is not a specific Weaver problem, but that conditions are too strong and bursty across the board.The optimal way to reign Weaver in, will be to nerf conditions substantially, so they can't burst anymore.This won't only stop Condi Weaver from over-performing, but also Condition mirages, Condi Thieves and other Conditions specs.

But we'll see what changes are going to happen or if they'll tackle this problem at all with the "Balance" patch in a few months.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range.

Part of the problem is that Arenanet has designed

another

melee spec for the class with the lowest Health and lowest armour.Of course they had to either overtune it with damage and/or active mitigation, or else they die without doing anything.

And the other half is not a specific Weaver problem, but that conditions are too strong and bursty

across the board

.The optimal way to reign Weaver in, will be to nerf conditions substantially, so they can't burst anymore.This won't only stop Condi Weaver from over-performing, but also Condition mirages, Condi Thieves and other Conditions specs.

But we'll see what changes are going to happen or if they'll tackle this problem at all with the "Balance" patch in a few months.

Calling it now. When everyone gets what they keep asking for and both burst condi and cleansing are nerfed into the ground, the forums will be filled with outraged players who were killed 30 seconds after somebody loaded them up with condi and walked away with not a damn thing they could do about it because cleansing is so limited.

[Fueki.4753]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range.

Part of the problem is that Arenanet has designed

another

melee spec for the class with the lowest Health and lowest armour.Of course they had to either overtune it with damage and/or active mitigation, or else they die without doing anything.

And the other half is not a specific Weaver problem, but that conditions are too strong and bursty

across the board

.The optimal way to reign Weaver in, will be to nerf conditions substantially, so they can't burst anymore.This won't only stop Condi Weaver from over-performing, but also Condition mirages, Condi Thieves and other Conditions specs.

But we'll see what changes are going to happen or if they'll tackle this problem at all with the "Balance" patch in a few months.

Calling it now. When everyone gets what they keep asking for and both burst condi and cleansing are nerfed into the ground, the forums will be filled with outraged players who were killed 30 seconds after somebody loaded them up with condi and walked away with not a kitten thing they could do about it because cleansing is so limited.

Cleansing already is a joke. It's not even close to be on par with conditions application, so there is no business in it getting nerfed.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range.

Part of the problem is that Arenanet has designed

another

melee spec for the class with the lowest Health and lowest armour.Of course they had to either overtune it with damage and/or active mitigation, or else they die without doing anything.

And the other half is not a specific Weaver problem, but that conditions are too strong and bursty

across the board

.The optimal way to reign Weaver in, will be to nerf conditions substantially, so they can't burst anymore.This won't only stop Condi Weaver from over-performing, but also Condition mirages, Condi Thieves and other Conditions specs.

But we'll see what changes are going to happen or if they'll tackle this problem at all with the "Balance" patch in a few months.

Calling it now. When everyone gets what they keep asking for and both burst condi and cleansing are nerfed into the ground, the forums will be filled with outraged players who were killed 30 seconds after somebody loaded them up with condi and walked away with not a kitten thing they could do about it because cleansing is so limited.

Cleansing already is a joke. It's not even close to be on par with conditions application, so there is no business in it getting nerfed.

We must be playing different games.

Somehow it's okay if say a warrior baits out all of your stun breaks, lands a stun, and 2-shots you, but if you run out of cleanses and fail to move out of 130 range against a fire weaver it's unbalanced.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range.

Part of the problem is that Arenanet has designed

another

melee spec for the class with the lowest Health and lowest armour.Of course they had to either overtune it with damage and/or active mitigation, or else they die without doing anything.

And the other half is not a specific Weaver problem, but that conditions are too strong and bursty

across the board

.The optimal way to reign Weaver in, will be to nerf conditions substantially, so they can't burst anymore.This won't only stop Condi Weaver from over-performing, but also Condition mirages, Condi Thieves and other Conditions specs.

But we'll see what changes are going to happen or if they'll tackle this problem at all with the "Balance" patch in a few months.

Calling it now. When everyone gets what they keep asking for and both burst condi and cleansing are nerfed into the ground, the forums will be filled with outraged players who were killed 30 seconds after somebody loaded them up with condi and walked away with not a kitten thing they could do about it because cleansing is so limited.

Cleansing already is a joke. It's not even close to be on par with conditions application, so there is no business in it getting nerfed.

The only condi builds that can exist in the current state of the game are those that can rapidly overload you with conditions either by variety or by intensity? Cleanse is so high it renders builds that don't fit this nonviable.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't see how else weaver could work (without an overhaul). You design a spec with practically zero mobility and range.

Part of the problem is that Arenanet has designed

another

melee spec for the class with the lowest Health and lowest armour.Of course they had to either overtune it with damage and/or active mitigation, or else they die without doing anything.

And the other half is not a specific Weaver problem, but that conditions are too strong and bursty

across the board

.The optimal way to reign Weaver in, will be to nerf conditions substantially, so they can't burst anymore.This won't only stop Condi Weaver from over-performing, but also Condition mirages, Condi Thieves and other Conditions specs.

But we'll see what changes are going to happen or if they'll tackle this problem at all with the "Balance" patch in a few months.

Calling it now. When everyone gets what they keep asking for and both burst condi and cleansing are nerfed into the ground, the forums will be filled with outraged players who were killed 30 seconds after somebody loaded them up with condi and walked away with not a kitten thing they could do about it because cleansing is so limited.

Cleansing already is a joke. It's not even close to be on par with conditions application, so there is no business in it getting nerfed.

The only condi builds that can exist in the current state of the game are those that can rapidly overload you with conditions either by variety or by intensity? Cleanse is so high it renders builds that don't fit this nonviable.

You know, the fact that you have to point this out...

But apparently the answer is to make the few condi builds that are actually effective completely worthless by removing any pressure they might be able to apply. I think we're done here. LoL