ridiculously 1 sided matchmaking?!?

[crepuscular.9047]

EDIT: changed the discussion title to less contentious...

seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

[Fearless.3569]

They'd have to start punishing players for trolling Ranked first. You know those obvious wintraders, bots, and afk match throwers. Before any fix to matchmaker become productive. Because the prior mentioned behaviors will just negate any fixes to the matchmaker. Making fixing matchmaker completely pointless.

If you want to win so bad tho. Might I advise you to follow the current METAs like wintrading, throwing matches with alt account when on teams of competing players, oh and make sure that you find a partner to duo queue with and farm the off hour bots. That's how you advance in PvP if you want to win. Just look at the TOP spots on the leaderboards LUL.

Or you can do like some of us have done. And take your PvP energy to eSports titles that will not allow such behaviors in the first place and have a decent MM for their rank scenes.

Or you can do what some others or doing. Which is semi-AFKing while watching Netflix using Ranked PvP seasons as a easy gold farm.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Honestly all the pvp rewards but the ones that incentivise winning need removed from ranked and put in unranked or atleast have them available in both but knowing the mentality of a lot of the players that this game atteacts they would still play ranked for the match rewards thinking that messing with other players who care about rank is just a bonus so I'd say remove all rewards from ranked but the ones that require the players to actually be their to win above all. I realize this would lower the population a lot of a already dead mode but I'd rather get steam rolled by plats etc anyday knowing atleast my team is trying and is there to try and improve. Being toxic to a player cuz their less skilled but are trying their best to learn is less likely probobly than getting the happy legendary farming msg at start of match and watching ur teammates clearly throwing and not trying.

[Zexanima.7851]

Just dodge and LoS /s

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Just download the hacks, can be found by google in seconds.

Kidding dont, and dont ban me lol

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@crepuscular.9047 said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

It's not even the matchmaker at this point, it's just people not wanting to play I'd assume, so MMR is scraping people together from all divisions.6 minute queue means MMR is sweating trying to find 10 people.

shrinking the mu may indeed work, but only if the classes are balanced... So-Not to mention if they split it people are just going to smurf/derank to harass lower tiers.

@Psycoprophet.8107 You might want to reconsider before someone reconsiders for you js. Theyve warned me for less.

[Luthan.5236]

Shouldn't it - with not enough plats - balance it and make 2 teams with a few plats each team + some lower ranks added?Also: If plats win that highly against lower ranked (if it really was that "stacked") shouldn't there be only a low change in rating? (Losing team almost nothing lost, winning team almost nothing gained?)

Imo that's how it should work. If not ... then something is wrong. Imo even the actual scores (victory points in the match) should be taken into account. If a full group of plats wins with 500 vs 490 against a group of full silver ... the winning team actually should have to lose rating cause you'd expect them to win far higher and not only by 10 victory points.

[Zexanima.7851]

@"Luthan.5236" said:Shouldn't it - with not enough plats - balance it and make 2 teams with a few plats each team + some lower ranks added?Also: If plats win that highly against lower ranked (if it really was that "stacked") shouldn't there be only a low change in rating? (Losing team almost nothing lost, winning team almost nothing gained?)

Imo that's how it should work. If not ... then something is wrong. Imo even the actual scores (victory points in the match) should be taken into account. If a full group of plats wins with 500 vs 490 against a group of full silver ... the winning team actually should have to lose rating cause you'd expect them to win far higher and not only by 10 victory points.

The match making system is absolutely bonkers. You can fairly frequently see gold players showing up in the same match as high as legendary players. This is really, really bad. It ends up with newer players getting roflstomped before even getting a chance to figure out what's going on. Then they say "Well this isn't fun and obviously broken..." and go play something else and never look back. Then those same high-tier players will be toxic to these lower tier players who are still figuring the game out when they end up with them on their own team. Just problem after problem gets produced from the poor match making. Win trading, queue sniping, ect, ect.

[XatraZaytrax.2601]

Honestly, the thing I hate most about the mismatching isn't losing, it is the high ranked players who gets put with the lower ranked ones and start hurling abuse. Of course we are losing, any maybe by a wide margin. But you wouldn't start calling high school football players stupid, worthless nubs if they lose a scrimmage against pros. You would celebrate those moments when they rose to the occasion and bested the elite. But in this game even the elite who get downed by a nub get vicious even if they are winning. It makes the mode toxic, so you can't even take mismatches as a learning moment

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning TeamElementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing TeamElementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

[ZDragon.3046]

im probably not 100% correct but 2 rangers and a warrior thats gonna be rough for losing team considering the status of ranger at the moment. I honestly think its a mix between skill and team comps that made this such a steam roll.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning Team

Elementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing Team

Elementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

This is the kind of communication I am hoping for. Of course you can't answer everything, but here and there some actual facts might really help. We know you have plenty of work to do, but... still, highly appreciated (and hoping for more :wink:).

Thanks! :smile:

[Zexanima.7851]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning Team

Elementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing Team

Elementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

What about people sitting at the top of the leader boards with 90% win ratios? Is that not fishy to you? That kind of luck/unholy skill seems fishy to me.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

https://quotess.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/1516873441_best-funny-quotes-burn-meme.jpg

[otto.5684]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning Team

Elementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing Team

Elementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

I am almost certain it does not in unranked. The other day I was matched against a premade including 1 player that had the AT champion icon winner. I am talking equivalent of 3 P3 players, in a team with probably 1 player who is above P2 level on the opposing team. Another game, warrior playing berserker, twhich I am almost certain is playing their first sPvP games. Fed all game. 1 match with me, and I lost next game against me and I won. Why would a new player be matched with or against someone with thousands of games under their belt?

One of the other issues, is the match making is done based on player account, not class. See, I can content, up to the highest level on my guardian. I can barely play at P1 on my warrior, which is my second played class. Guess what happens when I am not on my guardian or playing a weird build? If you guessed the match making would fail dramatically you would be right.

In addition, what you pointed is looking at it backwards. If your results are consistently not matching your conclusions, usually one of them is wrong. In that case, the ratings themselves are probably not accurate indicator of player skill level. This is why you get significantly skewed games like this, with players that are supposedly close in skill level, based on skill rating.

I understand, this is a problem that you cannot solve. Cuz the only effective way to solve it, is to have AI monitor every player in every game, and give them rating based on their performance, which is impossible. But, trying to say there are "other factors," beside predominately player skill level, is inaccurate.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

@otto.5684 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning Team

Elementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing Team

Elementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

I am almost certain it does not in unranked. The other day I was matched against a premade including 1 player that was had the AT champion icon winner. I am talking equivalent of 3 P3 players, in a team with probably 1 player who is above P2 level. Another game, warrior playing berserker, that I am almost certain is playing their first sPvP games. Fed all game. 1 match with me, and I lost next game against me and I won. Why would a new player be matched with or against someone with thousands of games under their belt?

One of the other issues, is the match making is done based on player account, not class. See, I can content, up to the highest level on my guardian. I can barely play at P1 on my warrior, which is my second played class. Guess what happens when I am not on my guardian or playing a weird build? If you guessed the match making would fail dramatically you would be right.

The unranked matchmaker is pretty much the same as the ranked matchmaker. It just has a configuration difference in that it starts widening the skill rating search after 2 minutes instead of after 5.Additionally, when the season is running, unranked population is lower, so its much more likely to have to pull from a wider range than in ranked.

You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning Team

Elementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing Team

Elementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

It's great that u post a reply and all as I'm sure its appreciated but posting one match where matchmaking was decent is one thing posting the results of 50 and finding an average mean would be better no? We have all had good close matches but usually followed by twice as many rolfstomps on either side which isn't fun for either side as well as many other issues aside regarding afk'rs, players in gold writing in chat how capping works. I even had a player as how to do the heart seeker smoke feilds combo, u can guess how helpful he was lol.A lot of issues would be resolved imo(not worth much) if players rank were somehow more of a depiction of their performance with a team than that of the over all teams performance due to the significantly large amount of variables that can effect it when just team performance is the base of ranking.

[Luthan.5236]

Hm ... the profession rating could be taken into account when calculating the changes of the overall account rating. Take that one to matchmake (for the reason of abuse and because it is possible to swap classes before the match starts) but try to use the actuall skill based on the played class for calculating the changes in rating.

(Winning team a lot higher average rating and it should gain less. If someone played a char where he is weaker than his acccount rating - used to matchmake - it should count stronger ... by using that one to calculate the team average and then comparing it to the other team.)

Edit: What about an optional check button to prevent yourself from swapping classes (checkable before joining the queue)? That way I can start to learn a new class (which I can do in unranked as well but yeah ... I want to gain a rating maybe and try "real" matches at the lower tier) without being matched into a setup where my team is more likely to lose (and it is harder to learn when getting pwned) - cause I get mached as stronger because of the rating generated mostly from my main. (I play atm only 1 class in PvP - almost 100 percent of my matches with that one in PvP.)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:snips

if you guys ever do 2v2 / 3v3, it would interesting to try out different methods. maybe try no class swaps with profession rating as well as anything else you guys can hash up. perhaps it would be best to only try these experiments in unranked lol. would be cool to see whats what and finally put to bed some what ifs.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Hey, look at that! That is pretty balanced actually.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends

if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point

even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players

So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case!

No duo queues.

Winning Team

Elementalist 1229Thief 1365Warrior 1298Ranger 1297Ranger 1411Avg 1320

Losing Team

Elementalist 1402Elementalist 1276Thief 1214Guardian 1351Ranger 1309Avg 1310.4

Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level.

I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

I am almost certain it does not in unranked. The other day I was matched against a premade including 1 player that was had the AT champion icon winner. I am talking equivalent of 3 P3 players, in a team with probably 1 player who is above P2 level. Another game, warrior playing berserker, that I am almost certain is playing their first sPvP games. Fed all game. 1 match with me, and I lost next game against me and I won. Why would a new player be matched with or against someone with thousands of games under their belt?

One of the other issues, is the match making is done based on player account, not class. See, I can content, up to the highest level on my guardian. I can barely play at P1 on my warrior, which is my second played class. Guess what happens when I am not on my guardian or playing a weird build? If you guessed the match making would fail dramatically you would be right.

The unranked matchmaker is pretty much the same as the ranked matchmaker. It just has a configuration difference in that it starts widening the skill rating search after 2 minutes instead of after 5.Additionally, when the season is running, unranked population is lower, so its much more likely to have to pull from a wider range than in ranked.

You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.)

Is the crazy win rate of the highest leaderboard players a non-issue then? Why are they so drastically high?

[Marxx.5021]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Marxx.5021 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams.

Edited:

It's more than just the average in this case, though. There isn't much variance between the ratings of the individual players that constitute the teams either.That being said, it is important to note that there is a point to be had when it comes to how team comp also contributes to match outcome.

Even if the classes get balanced perfectly, matches are still going to bomb if the comps don't work together or are weak, in addition to the cases mentioned above. I guess class swapping is a good thing then, to give people a chance to correct -at least- comp disparity.

Thank you for the communication, Ben. It's appreciated.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Marxx.5021 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams.

Edited:

It's more than just the average in this case, though. There isn't much variance between the ratings of the individual players that constitute the teams either.That being said, it is important to note that there is a point to be had when it comes to how team comp also contributes to match outcome.

Even if the classes get balanced perfectly, matches are still going to bomb if the comps don't work or are weak. I guess that's why they're allowing class swap, to give people a chance to correct that.

Thank you for the communication, Ben. It's appreciated.

facts

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Marxx.5021 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams.

Edited:

It's more than just the average in this case, though. There isn't much variance between the ratings of the individual players that constitute the teams either.That being said, it is important to note that there is a point to be had when it comes to how team comp also contributes to match outcome.

Even if the classes get balanced perfectly, matches are still going to bomb if the comps don't work together or are weak, in addition to the cases mentioned above. I guess class swapping is a good thing then, to give people a chance to correct -at least- comp disparity.

Thank you for the communication, Ben. It's appreciated.

Allowing the players to fix team comp on their own is definitely a big reason pre-start class swapping is allowed. We're not going to change the matchmaker to try to figure out what classes are most effective. The matchmaker would have to change every time we do a major balance change. It's a moving target that we'd be creating permanent developer debt to try to address it in the matchmaker.

The only time the matchmaker looks at classes is that it it limits the matches to +1 of any class per team. So you're very unlikely to have 3 of one class and 1 of another class on a team. (It's not absolutely impossible, just mathematically very improbable. And the limitation can be bypassed by class swapping.)