Raid difficulty and challenge motes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

This topic has been discussed at length the past 2-3 years and has easily driven the most active discussions in this particular subforum. It has also been extremely heated and, at times, even hateful.

But between the vitriol and sniping, there have been some productive conversations around how raids should look in this game. Rather than attack opposing points of view, I would like to simply state what I would like to see from raids in GW2, with the hope that others will do the same with the personal attacks or bickering.

Simply stated, I think raids should provide multiple difficulties, through the use of challenge motes, but keeping a few primary points in mind -

  • Any story in raids should be accessible in some playable (important word) format to players of many different skill levels. This transcends the hard/easy argument - it is simply a matter of presenting the same story to all players interested in it.
  • The primary purpose of raids should always be to provide challenging content to those players looking for it.
  • There needs to be a way that players who are not interested in conforming to a meta or spending hours min-maxing can still enjoy raids without having to add to their frustration levels.
  • Even at their lowest difficulty level, raids should provide a challenge above what you would find in a T1 or T2 fractal (the first three encounters in wing 4 feel about right, imo).

So, as they move forward, what I really want to see is a story focused experience that feels along the lines of Samarog or one of the preceding encounters in wing four, with challenge motes turning those fights into min-max nightmares that only the best of the best can beat.

Again, my hope is we can keep the discussion civil and friendly - focus on what you would like to see from future raids, not on how vehemently you disagree with me or any one else expressing their opinion here.

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Comments

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    Therefor make the base mode easier than w4 and make cm's a staple in raids as the actual challenging format.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭

    Well then. I don't particularly agree with it but that's pretty much that isn't it then?

  • melin skyland.7563melin skyland.7563 Member
    edited September 12

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    EDIT
    It turn out you can post a comment some one else made (comment above) by going to a link (i came here by a reddit link)....

  • Nafets.1238Nafets.1238 Member ✭✭

    I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content".

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    Only have 14 or 15 LIs, and only cleared w1, w2 up to Matt (got him to 32%) w3 to TC, and have not done w4 yet, because I keep getting kicked from groups because A ) I only have a thief geared to do raids, and no tank, healer or condi dps. B ) Get kicked because dps to low (even though I have to /gg because I'm the last one alive because I know the mechanics for those fights) (thought it was against the EULA to track someone ELSES data? I know Anet said meters are fine now, but ONLY yourself? Or did I get Anets info wrong? (I kitten still HATE them because of the tool being abused for years with raiding in SWTOR hard/nightmare, and still hate the tool here) or C) After 2 hours and only getting to phase 2 of VG 3 times, everyones tired and gives up and leaves. Now about 8 months ago I was farming fractal t4s (PFL 100) (on a DD thief, he is the only one I have geared with ascended since its expensive) and for about 6 weeks I got them done in about 1- 1 1/2 hours, easy. But the next 2 weeks after that, most of the runs were taking 3-5 hours. I don't have 3-5 hours each day completely uninterrupted to finish them. And yes, when I said brb to go to the fresher, or door, or help with family for something that only took about 2-3 minutes, I would come back and either I was kicked or most of the group had left. Now, I figured since I was running into ll these issues I made the choice to make a healer, for both raids (hopefully I can get into a training guild, working on it atm) and farming t4 fractals (need gold, I'm poor), and the CMs. Only done Nightmares CM, LOVED IT. But every group I see in LFG, my thief isn't geared for it, so hopefully soon I can run those daily and get into SO CM soon. It has taken 8 months, but I'm only a few days or weeks away from getting the last 60 AR I need for my ele and then I can hopefully get back in there.

    Anyways, with raids......I know Anet has said they won't, and to a point I agree. I just wish for one thing, and that is having either a COMEPLETELY watered down mode so people can see the storyline (and map the maps) on all of the their characters without having to spend 400-800 gold to deck them out and min/mx them, BUT.......next to no rewards. ie: the REWARD is seeing the storyline that has been "locked" to them and getting those POIs there. The bosses would not drop the boss specific items for the legendary gear, no LIs, heck not even greens or blues, just maybe some exp. Keep the rewards for the group content, so there is a incentive to run them every week. Also, even though I have not done any CM in the raids, I agree with the options above, make them repeatable. That's the only way people who don't have those AP yet are going to get it.

    Btw, I KNOW how long it would take for them to make something like that soloable, or even to change it to make it kitten easy, just with they could. :) (look to my rants about them removing chapter 7 with the NPE and it took them 1- 1/2 years to re-add it, or my rants about the AR system, so I know they wont "waste" time with fixing or changing features, over adding new content.)

    Keep up the good work devs, and hope the new incoming stuff is cool! :)

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the difficulty of wing 4 challenge modes should be the baseline raid difficulty with challenge modes on top for worthy encounters.

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @GrimmR.3541 said:
    To be honest, there is no challenge in T1 or T2 fractals as well as in the first 3 encounters in W4 unless you did old samarog CM.

    True, and I agree with you. But just because for US there is no challenge in t1-t2 fractals, doesn't mean all players are like that. I know some people, heck some in my own family, that have issues with t1-t2 fractals, either with the AR system because of how cost gating preventive it is, or to many things going on. Does that mean they should be locked out of storyline content? Btw, not saying they should be given clear rights to AA t4 CMs, just lessen the earlier ones to they can at least play through the new content that is released. (raids also, but because those are bigger, its more time and resources.)

    Also, even if some in my family stink at fractals, at least one brother and maybe a 2nd, are pretty good at them, and they want to go higher then 50, literally the ONLY thing holding them back is the AR system, so I'm helping them to get it, just takes time (like weeks), which stinks.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @GrimmR.3541 said:
    To be honest, there is no challenge in T1 or T2 fractals as well as in the first 3 encounters in W4 unless you did old samarog CM.

    True, and I agree with you. But just because for US there is no challenge in t1-t2 fractals, doesn't mean all players are like that. I know some people, heck some in my own family, that have issues with t1-t2 fractals, either with the AR system because of how cost gating preventive it is, or to many things going on. Does that mean they should be locked out of storyline content? Btw, not saying they should be given clear rights to AA t4 CMs, just lessen the earlier ones to they can at least play through the new content that is released. (raids also, but because those are bigger, its more time and resources.)

    Also, even if some in my family stink at fractals, at least one brother and maybe a 2nd, are pretty good at them, and they want to go higher then 50, literally the ONLY thing holding them back is the AR system, so I'm helping them to get it, just takes time (like weeks), which stinks.

    Those all sound like individual issues due to a lack of resolve, or knowledge. You are most need about 70 AR to get into t3. which does not require much of a gold investment at all.

  • Hard, challenging encounters are actually really good for the game. They allow teams to work together in a meaningful way, and encourage training raids for people that would actually like to get into the scene (which can lead to i.e guild invites, which work further to drive a sense of community).

    How boring would it be if raids were just afkable and doable with autoattacks? The challenge gives it meaning.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    And... There you have it. They are interested in content out at a faster pace, and anything else (tiers, LFR, etc), detracts from that.

    While it will upset or sadden people, can we finally let this horse rest in peace?

    Sadly the Fractal team has the same mindset about fixing/changing the AR system. :( I am of the mindset to wait a year without new content, just for them to fix the current content, so as not to lock new people from the new content they release. The reason why I'm willing to wait, is GW2 is not the ONLY game I play. Play multiple ones over time (plus all the stuff in RL, oldest of 12, getting a job, school, ect ect) so as not to get burnt out over regrinding and doing the same stupid thing over and over and expecting something different like ACTUALLY completing something. (isn't that insanity defined?) So even if I find something I don't like, and have to wait a year for them to fix it, there is always another game I can play till they fix it......just wish it didn't take 2-4+ years. :(

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    I really just dislike the idea of challenge motes all together. Translating new mechanics into a raid that could have been there to Begin with feels really restrictive from a design point of view. Why try balancing the difficulty of two separate pieces, and leaving out mechanics you obviously care enough about, just to make another tier of difficulty with those mechanics? It seems alittle redundant to make a CM for every encounter in a wing. A few here and there seems good but not a whole wing

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Lfg op plz nerf

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    If you had done the actual raids you would know thats not a solution. Some mechanics instakill and aren't simply based on the amount of damage you take or do. Like the flame wall at sabetha, the orbs at KC, the green circles at KC, the mines at escort, leaving Glenna during escort. All things that have nothing to do with damage taken/received that will effectively end, your run.

    As for what people would 'like'. I think thats part of the problem. People would 'like' a lot of things. It does not mean attempting to give them said things is a wise or warranted decision. As history has shown time and time again, those who wish for things, but aren't really going to work for them, probably didn't actually want said thing. They just think they did, and lost interest when it was given.

  • I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    Refer to my post above. It's not as simple as that.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    Why they don't want to do this was just addressed though. This isn't want raids were designed for and putting in this effort distracts from the vision they have for raids in gw2

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Lfg op plz nerf

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so. I have no desire for an easier version of the raid, nor would I care if that eventually becomes your agenda due to these requests for it. I just want an easier way to get into the raids as they are now with 9 other people.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Lfg op plz nerf

  • @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    Refer to my post above. It's not as simple as that.

    Good points there but while Sab's flame wall is an insta kill, how will that interact with a special status invul? It could be that based on a priority, this does not happen if invul or something similar is present. I've no idea what the code actually is underlying so this it just me talking based on an assumption. I've not done KC before (only W1 , W4 and escort) but Glenna during escort could be given the exact same invul status. Any friendly chars going forward could get it as well. As long as nothing goes through this one invul status and the only way to get it is via interacting with an "Easy Mote" whilst disabling rewards, it can be applied to any and all raid encounters. The idea is only so that the raid dev team can focus on raids while having the same method of exposing the story without creating watered down mechanics.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Slice Of Life.9712 said:
    The barrier to experiencing these stories might be lower than you'd expect. There is indeed a good deal of effort required to get into raiding and to clear the bosses if you have never concentrated on playing your class in a way that maximizes its potential, but it is worth it.

    The concept of a low-skill-story-version-raid with zero rewards doesn't offend me, but if it isn't in the vision of what the devs have for raids, you should either watch a lore video about them or go practice on the golem.

    True, and I do. But just because YOU know your class, and the rotations and the mechanics, can you carry 9 others that don't? Or even 5-7 that don't? Because my guild tried for weeks, and me and 2-3 others had done other bosses, knew our classes, looked up rotations and helped all the other people in the raid to look up rotations and explain the mechanics of VG, still after 4-6 weeks, only saw phase 2, three times. I think that's where it is still iffy in many peoples minds. For the people who havn't done it yet, they keep hearing about all these huge gates and bars and hoops they have to jump through (some designed by Anet themselves, and others because of players) in order to even STEP into raids, and even then its not 100% after 2 hours, you even have the wing cleared, let alone the first boss down. (After 2 hours, we didn't even have VG down, and yes after that, it broke apart, and the guy leading it left.) And if they water down the base mode, the elite raiders will get BEYOND bored, but the CM don't give a better reward outside of the first time run. So imo, they need to lower the base mode dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is, (and possibly the rewards also) and make CM repeatable daily for the elite raiders. I think those 3 changes would bring ALOT to making sure more people are running raid, and more offen, even the elite ones who have full legendary armor already. B)

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