Raid difficulty and challenge motes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

This topic has been discussed at length the past 2-3 years and has easily driven the most active discussions in this particular subforum. It has also been extremely heated and, at times, even hateful.

But between the vitriol and sniping, there have been some productive conversations around how raids should look in this game. Rather than attack opposing points of view, I would like to simply state what I would like to see from raids in GW2, with the hope that others will do the same with the personal attacks or bickering.

Simply stated, I think raids should provide multiple difficulties, through the use of challenge motes, but keeping a few primary points in mind -

  • Any story in raids should be accessible in some playable (important word) format to players of many different skill levels. This transcends the hard/easy argument - it is simply a matter of presenting the same story to all players interested in it.
  • The primary purpose of raids should always be to provide challenging content to those players looking for it.
  • There needs to be a way that players who are not interested in conforming to a meta or spending hours min-maxing can still enjoy raids without having to add to their frustration levels.
  • Even at their lowest difficulty level, raids should provide a challenge above what you would find in a T1 or T2 fractal (the first three encounters in wing 4 feel about right, imo).

So, as they move forward, what I really want to see is a story focused experience that feels along the lines of Samarog or one of the preceding encounters in wing four, with challenge motes turning those fights into min-max nightmares that only the best of the best can beat.

Again, my hope is we can keep the discussion civil and friendly - focus on what you would like to see from future raids, not on how vehemently you disagree with me or any one else expressing their opinion here.

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Comments

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Therefor make the base mode easier than w4 and make cm's a staple in raids as the actual challenging format.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Well then. I don't particularly agree with it but that's pretty much that isn't it then?

  • melin skyland.7563melin skyland.7563 Member
    edited September 12, 2017

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    EDIT
    It turn out you can post a comment some one else made (comment above) by going to a link (i came here by a reddit link)....

  • I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content".

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    Only have 14 or 15 LIs, and only cleared w1, w2 up to Matt (got him to 32%) w3 to TC, and have not done w4 yet, because I keep getting kicked from groups because A ) I only have a thief geared to do raids, and no tank, healer or condi dps. B ) Get kicked because dps to low (even though I have to /gg because I'm the last one alive because I know the mechanics for those fights) (thought it was against the EULA to track someone ELSES data? I know Anet said meters are fine now, but ONLY yourself? Or did I get Anets info wrong? (I kitten still HATE them because of the tool being abused for years with raiding in SWTOR hard/nightmare, and still hate the tool here) or C) After 2 hours and only getting to phase 2 of VG 3 times, everyones tired and gives up and leaves. Now about 8 months ago I was farming fractal t4s (PFL 100) (on a DD thief, he is the only one I have geared with ascended since its expensive) and for about 6 weeks I got them done in about 1- 1 1/2 hours, easy. But the next 2 weeks after that, most of the runs were taking 3-5 hours. I don't have 3-5 hours each day completely uninterrupted to finish them. And yes, when I said brb to go to the fresher, or door, or help with family for something that only took about 2-3 minutes, I would come back and either I was kicked or most of the group had left. Now, I figured since I was running into ll these issues I made the choice to make a healer, for both raids (hopefully I can get into a training guild, working on it atm) and farming t4 fractals (need gold, I'm poor), and the CMs. Only done Nightmares CM, LOVED IT. But every group I see in LFG, my thief isn't geared for it, so hopefully soon I can run those daily and get into SO CM soon. It has taken 8 months, but I'm only a few days or weeks away from getting the last 60 AR I need for my ele and then I can hopefully get back in there.

    Anyways, with raids......I know Anet has said they won't, and to a point I agree. I just wish for one thing, and that is having either a COMEPLETELY watered down mode so people can see the storyline (and map the maps) on all of the their characters without having to spend 400-800 gold to deck them out and min/mx them, BUT.......next to no rewards. ie: the REWARD is seeing the storyline that has been "locked" to them and getting those POIs there. The bosses would not drop the boss specific items for the legendary gear, no LIs, heck not even greens or blues, just maybe some exp. Keep the rewards for the group content, so there is a incentive to run them every week. Also, even though I have not done any CM in the raids, I agree with the options above, make them repeatable. That's the only way people who don't have those AP yet are going to get it.

    Btw, I KNOW how long it would take for them to make something like that soloable, or even to change it to make it kitten easy, just with they could. :) (look to my rants about them removing chapter 7 with the NPE and it took them 1- 1/2 years to re-add it, or my rants about the AR system, so I know they wont "waste" time with fixing or changing features, over adding new content.)

    Keep up the good work devs, and hope the new incoming stuff is cool! :)

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the difficulty of wing 4 challenge modes should be the baseline raid difficulty with challenge modes on top for worthy encounters.

  • @GrimmR.3541 said:
    To be honest, there is no challenge in T1 or T2 fractals as well as in the first 3 encounters in W4 unless you did old samarog CM.

    True, and I agree with you. But just because for US there is no challenge in t1-t2 fractals, doesn't mean all players are like that. I know some people, heck some in my own family, that have issues with t1-t2 fractals, either with the AR system because of how cost gating preventive it is, or to many things going on. Does that mean they should be locked out of storyline content? Btw, not saying they should be given clear rights to AA t4 CMs, just lessen the earlier ones to they can at least play through the new content that is released. (raids also, but because those are bigger, its more time and resources.)

    Also, even if some in my family stink at fractals, at least one brother and maybe a 2nd, are pretty good at them, and they want to go higher then 50, literally the ONLY thing holding them back is the AR system, so I'm helping them to get it, just takes time (like weeks), which stinks.

  • @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @GrimmR.3541 said:
    To be honest, there is no challenge in T1 or T2 fractals as well as in the first 3 encounters in W4 unless you did old samarog CM.

    True, and I agree with you. But just because for US there is no challenge in t1-t2 fractals, doesn't mean all players are like that. I know some people, heck some in my own family, that have issues with t1-t2 fractals, either with the AR system because of how cost gating preventive it is, or to many things going on. Does that mean they should be locked out of storyline content? Btw, not saying they should be given clear rights to AA t4 CMs, just lessen the earlier ones to they can at least play through the new content that is released. (raids also, but because those are bigger, its more time and resources.)

    Also, even if some in my family stink at fractals, at least one brother and maybe a 2nd, are pretty good at them, and they want to go higher then 50, literally the ONLY thing holding them back is the AR system, so I'm helping them to get it, just takes time (like weeks), which stinks.

    Those all sound like individual issues due to a lack of resolve, or knowledge. You are most need about 70 AR to get into t3. which does not require much of a gold investment at all.

  • Hard, challenging encounters are actually really good for the game. They allow teams to work together in a meaningful way, and encourage training raids for people that would actually like to get into the scene (which can lead to i.e guild invites, which work further to drive a sense of community).

    How boring would it be if raids were just afkable and doable with autoattacks? The challenge gives it meaning.

  • @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    And... There you have it. They are interested in content out at a faster pace, and anything else (tiers, LFR, etc), detracts from that.

    While it will upset or sadden people, can we finally let this horse rest in peace?

    Sadly the Fractal team has the same mindset about fixing/changing the AR system. :( I am of the mindset to wait a year without new content, just for them to fix the current content, so as not to lock new people from the new content they release. The reason why I'm willing to wait, is GW2 is not the ONLY game I play. Play multiple ones over time (plus all the stuff in RL, oldest of 12, getting a job, school, ect ect) so as not to get burnt out over regrinding and doing the same stupid thing over and over and expecting something different like ACTUALLY completing something. (isn't that insanity defined?) So even if I find something I don't like, and have to wait a year for them to fix it, there is always another game I can play till they fix it......just wish it didn't take 2-4+ years. :(

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    I really just dislike the idea of challenge motes all together. Translating new mechanics into a raid that could have been there to Begin with feels really restrictive from a design point of view. Why try balancing the difficulty of two separate pieces, and leaving out mechanics you obviously care enough about, just to make another tier of difficulty with those mechanics? It seems alittle redundant to make a CM for every encounter in a wing. A few here and there seems good but not a whole wing

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    If you had done the actual raids you would know thats not a solution. Some mechanics instakill and aren't simply based on the amount of damage you take or do. Like the flame wall at sabetha, the orbs at KC, the green circles at KC, the mines at escort, leaving Glenna during escort. All things that have nothing to do with damage taken/received that will effectively end, your run.

    As for what people would 'like'. I think thats part of the problem. People would 'like' a lot of things. It does not mean attempting to give them said things is a wise or warranted decision. As history has shown time and time again, those who wish for things, but aren't really going to work for them, probably didn't actually want said thing. They just think they did, and lost interest when it was given.

  • I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

  • @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    Refer to my post above. It's not as simple as that.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    Why they don't want to do this was just addressed though. This isn't want raids were designed for and putting in this effort distracts from the vision they have for raids in gw2

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so. I have no desire for an easier version of the raid, nor would I care if that eventually becomes your agenda due to these requests for it. I just want an easier way to get into the raids as they are now with 9 other people.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    Refer to my post above. It's not as simple as that.

    Good points there but while Sab's flame wall is an insta kill, how will that interact with a special status invul? It could be that based on a priority, this does not happen if invul or something similar is present. I've no idea what the code actually is underlying so this it just me talking based on an assumption. I've not done KC before (only W1 , W4 and escort) but Glenna during escort could be given the exact same invul status. Any friendly chars going forward could get it as well. As long as nothing goes through this one invul status and the only way to get it is via interacting with an "Easy Mote" whilst disabling rewards, it can be applied to any and all raid encounters. The idea is only so that the raid dev team can focus on raids while having the same method of exposing the story without creating watered down mechanics.

  • @Slice Of Life.9712 said:
    The barrier to experiencing these stories might be lower than you'd expect. There is indeed a good deal of effort required to get into raiding and to clear the bosses if you have never concentrated on playing your class in a way that maximizes its potential, but it is worth it.

    The concept of a low-skill-story-version-raid with zero rewards doesn't offend me, but if it isn't in the vision of what the devs have for raids, you should either watch a lore video about them or go practice on the golem.

    True, and I do. But just because YOU know your class, and the rotations and the mechanics, can you carry 9 others that don't? Or even 5-7 that don't? Because my guild tried for weeks, and me and 2-3 others had done other bosses, knew our classes, looked up rotations and helped all the other people in the raid to look up rotations and explain the mechanics of VG, still after 4-6 weeks, only saw phase 2, three times. I think that's where it is still iffy in many peoples minds. For the people who havn't done it yet, they keep hearing about all these huge gates and bars and hoops they have to jump through (some designed by Anet themselves, and others because of players) in order to even STEP into raids, and even then its not 100% after 2 hours, you even have the wing cleared, let alone the first boss down. (After 2 hours, we didn't even have VG down, and yes after that, it broke apart, and the guy leading it left.) And if they water down the base mode, the elite raiders will get BEYOND bored, but the CM don't give a better reward outside of the first time run. So imo, they need to lower the base mode dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is, (and possibly the rewards also) and make CM repeatable daily for the elite raiders. I think those 3 changes would bring ALOT to making sure more people are running raid, and more offen, even the elite ones who have full legendary armor already. B)

  • Well, that's good news to me! I was afraid raids were done after W4. Glad i was mistaken

  • @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    Huh.....maybe that's why these keep popping up.....people are bitter because they can't play content? Having some AR to get into the 3 new fractals (and the heartbreaker they have there :anguished: ) in t2 fractals is okish.........Not asking them to lower or remove the AR for CM100. Same thing for raids I guess? I mean does doing SO at 25 give the same reward as CM100? Nope. Maybe adapt that mindset to raids? Could work. But like you said, low people, low resources.......low output. (In either content or features or fixes.)

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Opportunities are created, not given. In other words, opportunities happen all of the time, it is up to you to do something about it. Not every opportunity will be for everyone, but there are choices in creating opportunities for yourself, as well as what opportunities that are available currently in the game. I have listed those choices below.

    1. Join a guild
    2. Build a group of friends
    3. Create your own group
    4. Join training runs (usually run later in the week, early week people are just looking for their kills)
    5. There is even an LFG in this subsection of the forums now
    6. I believe that there are raid Discord channels that you can join (someone else would have to provide that information as I do not have it)
    7. I have even seen people standing in the Aerodome asking if any groups were looking for a newbie, or willing to take one (I've seen posts on the old forums confirming that this does indeed work)

    If anyone else knows of any other methods, please feel free to add to it.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    As someone who hasn't raided yet, I think this is the right way forward, although the accessibility thing is very important. The more players who feel encouraged and comfortable to raid, the better the future for them. Without a steady supply of new players, they risk becoming content which no longer warrants the investment in making them. I;d hate to see that since even though I haven't raided yet, I understand the need to have them as part of the health of the game.

    The other side of this is that there is a huge community of people who now play GW2 primarily to clear raids that are semi-difficult in their current implementation. Something that was said about HoT and the decision to not have vertical progression is that clearing a raid boss is an accomplishment that will not be invalidated by > @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Slice Of Life.9712 said:
    The barrier to experiencing these stories might be lower than you'd expect. There is indeed a good deal of effort required to get into raiding and to clear the bosses if you have never concentrated on playing your class in a way that maximizes its potential, but it is worth it.

    The concept of a low-skill-story-version-raid with zero rewards doesn't offend me, but if it isn't in the vision of what the devs have for raids, you should either watch a lore video about them or go practice on the golem.

    True, and I do. But just because YOU know your class, and the rotations and the mechanics, can you carry 9 others that don't? Or even 5-7 that don't? Because my guild tried for weeks, and me and 2-3 others had done other bosses, knew our classes, looked up rotations and helped all the other people in the raid to look up rotations and explain the mechanics of VG, still after 4-6 weeks, only saw phase 2, three times. I think that's where it is still iffy in many peoples minds. For the people who havn't done it yet, they keep hearing about all these huge gates and bars and hoops they have to jump through (some designed by Anet themselves, and others because of players) in order to even STEP into raids, and even then its not 100% after 2 hours, you even have the wing cleared, let alone the first boss down. (After 2 hours, we didn't even have VG down, and yes after that, it broke apart, and the guy leading it left.) And if they water down the base mode, the elite raiders will get BEYOND bored, but the CM don't give a better reward outside of the first time run. So imo, they need to lower the base mode dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is, (and possibly the rewards also) and make CM repeatable daily for the elite raiders. I think those 3 changes would bring ALOT to making sure more people are running raid, and more offen, even the elite ones who have full legendary armor already. B)

    It sounds like a guild problem more than a you problem to me. I had a similar experience. I wanted to raid with the people I had been playing with for 4 years, but they were wvw and pve players and wanted to play together, but had trouble taking it seriously enough to get clears. Only 2-3 of us really had put in the effort and no, it wasn't enough dps or support to drag 7-8 others through their sloppy mechanics.

    You need like-willed people to accomplish anything in raids. It's a negative if you're not willing to adjust to that, but it's a positive if you are. More than 2 inexperienced people in any pull will cause a lot of problems.

    Also - now that we are 4 wings into the GW2 raid era, if you ever try again, don't start with VG. It's the first boss so you might be tempted, but you'll have a lot better luck training for raids if you start with w3 or w4 and the things you learn will help you get back to VG a little later.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    That is disappointing - and something I feel confident you will, even if you oppose the idea of, eventually have to reconsider.

    With your comments in mind, however, you need to be very mindful of lore and story/narrative. Designing fights that are meant for a smaller group is bad enough. Locking interesting story or lore behind that design (even if you try to call it a side story) is a very bad direction to go - and something that will alienate a lot of people from not just raids, but GW2 as a whole.

    This just isn't true. They are side stories. They have said from the start what the direction on raids is and will be, they did not make them to be accessible without effort.
    But that's not to say that these stories are not accessible to any one and everyone? Assuming you do not raid, what steps have you taken to get into raiding ? All of us were beginners at some point. All it takes is alittle motivation and effort and you can jump into a training run, get the experience and then get your first kill. All it takes is for people to apply themselves. Raids are really much more accessible then people imagine. Arenanet designed them so those that want to apply themselves can, and those that don't want to can choose not to.

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Opportunities are created, not given. In other words, opportunities happen all of the time, it is up to you to do something about it. Not every opportunity will be for everyone, but there are choices in creating opportunities for yourself, as well as what opportunities that are available currently in the game. I have listed those choices below.

    1. Join a guild
    2. Build a group of friends
    3. Create your own group
    4. Join training runs (usually run later in the week, early week people are just looking for their kills)
    5. There is even an LFG in this subsection of the forums now
    6. I believe that there are raid Discord channels that you can join (someone else would have to provide that information as I do not have it)
    7. I have even seen people standing in the Aerodome asking if any groups were looking for a newbie, or willing to take one (I've seen posts on the old forums confirming that this does indeed work)

    If anyone else knows of any other methods, please feel free to add to it.

    1. I made a couple posts on the Reddit/in game looking for a raiding guild, they don't want someone that isn't "EXP."
    2. I have 4 friends, none of them are geared or at the point to be able to do raiding, if they are actually good enough to do it (at least 2 of them aren't).
    3. Just make a 1/10 pug group for a raid? I've considered attempting it, but also feel like I will be called an idiot as soon as I mess something up as the leader (no experience) or get a bunch of people in green gear because I said "first timers."
    4. I've addressed this in my previous post.
    5. This might be a possibility if it's any better than the in-game LFG, which isn't accomplishing anything right now for me (all the groups want experience and/or purposely use tons of acronyms to keep out people that aren't experienced).
    6. Same as a training group, or people that want experience only.
    7. I actually downed the "escort" raid and unlocked the mastery because two players were kind enough to take me for it, and we did it no problem, but that's just one fight out of many.
  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

    LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need. Reread that last paragraph, because it sounds deluted.

    I have hundreds of MMO's under my belt, and i would never spew such hubris. It's easy to out damage everyone in pug fractals btw. So that doesn't mean very much.

  • @Nafets.1238 said:
    I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content".

    I know EZ MODE isn't incoming, didn't they devs say that like a year ago? But a idea, did just come to me. Lower the dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is. Yeah, they have more dodging to do if they don't have the dps, but at least they can see the content and storylines and don't need the meta stuff for it. Also, nerf the rewards, so people don't just float to the path of least resistance, but so people can learn the mechanics without a time stress, THEN if they want the rewards for legendary armor/ascended armor drops, they go into the time limits, know your dps meta rotations with the same mechanics you learned. Seems like a good compromise, plus all Anet needs to change is a timer right? Correct me if I'm wrong Anet. :)

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017

    LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need.

    Standing in a green circle, dodging blue circles, and moving to specific sections of the arena depending on your role is baby tier compared to raids in WoW (mythic) or FFXIV (savage). Yeah, I know it's the first boss, but I also can't even get into a group for it.

    Those games also do not do or need "training" runs. This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

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