A challenge: no Firebrands zerg! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A challenge: no Firebrands zerg!

Syrus.2174Syrus.2174 Member ✭✭✭

You always hear how essential Firebrands are to a zerg and playing on a Tier 1 EU server we often face stronger enemies with better organization and/or better class composition in their zergs.
It made me quite interested in the question, what if an organized zerg attempted to take a defended T3 keep, preferably an EB keep or the enemy's home garrision (not on RBL), without Firebrands? Would it be possible against an unorganized group of equal or near equal strength or are zergs really that depended on one class?

I would love to see someone do this, to be honest. One zerg, at least 30 people, no Firebrands, take a defended T3 keep.

Comments

  • This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I believe that theoretically you could skip firebrands by pumping in more regular scrapper healers and shoutheal spellbreakers. You loose what firebrands offer yes, but you get alot more stealth, reflects and some stab, both of these offer tons of cleanse and frequent healing, plus more barrier/resistance/vigor and boon strip bubbles. I definetly believe that a good commander can still make use of this and not really "need" those firebrands.

    We are unlikely to ever see a practical "test" and even if we do... situations always vary. Not to mention, you learn how to counter things. Any class can be effiecent at least once. Usually trying to force certain classes result in just bad players on them which die anyway. I mean its the same for firebrands - some die instantly, some can tank anything. You definetly do not want to ask me to come on a firebrand.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Deniara Devious.3948Deniara Devious.3948 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    In practice NO.

    Defenders have an advantage. Firebrands just offer too much for large groups to be completely left out.

    For example I leading defense of home bl T3 bay yesterday evening (EU tier 1). As a ranged commander and lacking a melee ball, I had to use different tactics. Enemy had a 30-50 player zerg, but it was quite easily snipe their rear (basically those who don't stay in the ball, usually soft targets like necros or eles). Once enemy loses enough players, they disengage, to avoid complete wipe. The T3 keep inner was never even close being breached and I would have of course used emergency waypoint before that to call in help.

    Firebrands offer a lot of reflects. I can imagine that backline sniping would be even easier without the enemy zerg having any firebrands.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Imo anything works as long until proven it does not.

    Since no one right now is thinking of doing it, or has done it before, I'll say it works, but only in theory.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not really possible to take a t3 objective against a same sized group regardless of either groups composition. Unless the group with the T3 keep are literally uplevels who don't know how to play the game.

    In terms of FB necessity to a group, at this juncture the things that make them 'necessary' isn't really true anymore. You could get the needed stab uptime from a DH + revenant. It's just not worth it to try to change a bunch of builds to get the same end effect.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lets wait for weekend evens after the balance patch :)

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

    What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

  • Syrus.2174Syrus.2174 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @God.2708 said:
    It's not really possible to take a t3 objective against a same sized group regardless of either groups composition. Unless the group with the T3 keep are literally uplevels who don't know how to play the game.

    I've seen this happen quite a lot with organized zergs vs unorganized randoms defending a T3 keep. If the defender's numbers are at most equal, but probably less, and the enemy has a disciplined organized zerg, they can easily end up farming the defender in the keep or take it. Even if the defender starts out with more people, after killing them a few times many usually abbandon the defense.

    I'm just really curious if Firebrands really are that essential to a working, powerful zerg and if there isn't an alternative way to build a zerg to do well.
    Because ... if that isn't possible, wouldn't it mean they are probably too powerful in that role?

    I'm neither in a WvW guild, nor a commander myself, so I hoped for someone with the ability to show - look, we can make this work even without Firebrands and crush the enemy just as before - or demonstrate that not having this class around will put you at a severe disadvantage. Just to change the game up a bit.

    As a side not, on the defending side I, again and again lately, have come to realize that if you don't bring boon removal / corrupt, even with great numbers you will just not have a chance at defeating an organized zerg.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

  • Fish.2769Fish.2769 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

    What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

    And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

    You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

    @Fish.2769 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

    What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

    And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

    Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You want a CC meta?
    Because thats how get people to stack CC .

    Without any good stab scource and all.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    No firebrands, scourges nor scrappers.

    Gw2 has to many noobs being carried, they can’t play w/o gimmick performance gameplay.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

    You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

    @Fish.2769 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

    What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

    And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

    Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

    Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why not just 2 shout guards per party?
    Worked fine for the first 5 years

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    Why not just 2 shout guards per party?
    Worked fine for the first 5 years

    I greatly prefer core or even DH over FB. All that fluff and fuss.....for what?

  • go for broke and do a no guard party.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • LadyHawk.5319LadyHawk.5319 Member ✭✭✭

    No problem with no FBs. There are other support classes that provide enough of other buffs/heals sans aegis and constant stab. Ok, fine. No one will have that. People put way too much focus on the firebrand. While you are doing that, the scrappers and tempests are out cleansing, providing constant heals, giving protection, cc'ing, regen, group stun breaks. The support warrior, omg, is out cleansing your average tempest and, in some cases, the best tempests, while providing healing, vigor, might, fury. So go ahead, focus only on the firebrands.
    If a player's goal is to play WvW, a group-centric competitive game mode, and always kill without any resistance from your foe, you are playing the wrong game mode. Perhaps Anet needs to provide a map where all boons, buffs, etc are removed, no one can buff/heal/cleanse anyone else, no food buffs can be applied, no gear, just you vs the other player au naturel and leave WvW to the group players, where masses work in concert to overcome their challengers.

  • regular guardians could also be player very defensively... if for some reason we had no firebrand, the zergs would simply adapt. we might need more healers numberwise but w/e... too hypothetical, they won't eliminate a full specs.

  • I still miss the days of 4 necros and 1 venom share thief party. They were the best.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

    You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

    @Fish.2769 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

    What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

    And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

    Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

    Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it

    The other zerg has firebrands... It was asked for a zerg setup that could beat a meta setup.

    That might work 1 or 2 times, but as soon as they get wary it wont work anymore, they would kite you to death

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    I'm pretty sure you could just run scrapper+spb with a couple berserkers tossed in and one push anyone

    You would most likely not be able to even reach the enemy, because you would lack stability to push through to them, atleast if they actually use their buttons their ranged dmg and cc will stop you in your tracks. Especially if the enemy commander is going to fight you in a choke point, where you have to move through all the dmg.

    @Fish.2769 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    This most likely Will lead to stacking up scourges

    This most likely would lead to the other side stacking thieves and rangers which would in effect obliterate the scourge zerg faster than one can blink.

    What they should do is make a week out of it. Instead of no downstate week, do no Guardian class week (no guardians, no DH's, no Firebrands), and watch how the play drastically changes.

    And then come to forum and watch how many people complain ANet are being classist because they can't play Guardian? :D

    Anet said that they will never make an event that would leave out classes, because they dont want to force ppl to play a class they dont want to play. Because of this they wont give us a vanilla week.

    Both have plenty of stab and a block/invuln to get in melee range, or they could just mount/stealth in. Once they're in melee range it's gg, that many spb can chain multiple bubbles while spamming CC and immob. Without fb to stun break and layer stab, there isn't much you could do about it

    The other zerg has firebrands... It was asked for a zerg setup that could beat a meta setup.

    That might work 1 or 2 times, but as soon as they get wary it wont work anymore, they would kite you to death

    Scrappers keep up superspeed and spb has some of the best resistance access in the game. Gl kiting if they get on top of you, and there's no reason for them to engage at all if they can't get into melee

    Edit: my bad, forgot this thread was about taking a t3 without fbs. In that case just stack revs, weavers, and dh with scrapper and tempest heals. Inside a structure it's easy to nuke with dh and weaver since movement is restricted

  • Syrus.2174Syrus.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the responses so far, gives some things to think about regarding FBs in WvW.

    I picked a fight over a T3 Keep for the simple reason of that being the hardest objective to take, and where it matters less how good the defender is, and more how well the attackers zerg is composed. An unorganized group would usually stand no chance in open field due to the lack of coordination alone, in a keep though, it's more about how well the attacker can sustain. At least from my observations.

    It's a bit sad, but absolutely not unexpected to not see anyone try this, would've been fun if some top tier guild of WvW could disprove that a zerg without FBs probably won't work.

  • Caysadia.7405Caysadia.7405 Member ✭✭✭

    I have to say i do NOT agree with this.

    No firebrands means no shattered aegis, and one cannot have a functioning zerg without shattered aegis.

    Therefore i will have to DISAGREE with your proposal

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2020

    At equal numbers and skill, not going to happen.

    People love to mention all the secondary supports without realizing 1 thing, while you are stacking those, the meta setup has one in each firebrand group too. Those 2 zergs clash and the side which runs out of stab first or the side with less character control loses. It's that simple.

    Aoe Resistance fields, aoe stability en mass, aoe aegis, aoe protection, MIs, reflects, you name it and the Firebrand brings it to the table.

    Yes, they are outclassed in cleansing (by a lot actually) and in healing output, but that's not their main role anyway. Firebrand is the only class which can effectively preemptively prevent loss of character control, and that is what gives them the edge and makes them the backbone of any zerg.

    Simply put, the Firebrand buys the squad enough time to act, the remaining classes make use of that time and shine. If you can't act, you've lost before the fight has even started.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    At equal numbers and skill, not going to happen.

    People love to mention all the secondary supports without realizing 1 thing, while you are stacking those, the meta setup has one in each firebrand group too. Those 2 zergs clash and the side which runs out of stab first or the side with less character control loses. It's that simple.

    Aoe Resistance fields, aoe stability en mass, aoe aegis, aoe protection, MIs, reflects, you name it and the Firebrand brings it to the table.

    Yes, they are outclassed in cleansing (by a lot actually) and in healing output, but that's not their main role anyway. Firebrand is the only class which can effectively preemptively prevent loss of character control, and that is what gives them the edge and makes them the backbone of any zerg.

    Simply put, the Firebrand buys the squad enough time to act, the remaining classes make use of that time and shine. If you can't act, you've lost before the fight has even started.

    I mean, whilst this is true. The question is of no FB. Not no Guardian.

    If you utilize a DPS guardian instead (likely a condi DH) for SYG and then double up on support with some minor stabs you can likely go pretty far even assuming equal skill.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    At equal numbers and skill, not going to happen.

    People love to mention all the secondary supports without realizing 1 thing, while you are stacking those, the meta setup has one in each firebrand group too. Those 2 zergs clash and the side which runs out of stab first or the side with less character control loses. It's that simple.

    Aoe Resistance fields, aoe stability en mass, aoe aegis, aoe protection, MIs, reflects, you name it and the Firebrand brings it to the table.

    Yes, they are outclassed in cleansing (by a lot actually) and in healing output, but that's not their main role anyway. Firebrand is the only class which can effectively preemptively prevent loss of character control, and that is what gives them the edge and makes them the backbone of any zerg.

    Simply put, the Firebrand buys the squad enough time to act, the remaining classes make use of that time and shine. If you can't act, you've lost before the fight has even started.

    I mean, whilst this is true. The question is of no FB. Not no Guardian.

    If you utilize a DPS guardian instead (likely a condi DH) for SYG and then double up on support with some minor stabs you can likely go pretty far even assuming equal skill.

    You might make it 1nce if you have the surprise. Any competent commander will then kite and/or aggressively corrupt your initial stability and draw out the fight to use his cooldown and skill advantage.

    I'm unsure how many people in this discussion actually play support Firebrand or multiclass in WvW on a high level, but every time I play that role, be it guild internal, as guild core for a public or just in a public, I kind of need most of my cooldowns for even fights. Unless one side one-pushes the other.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    At equal numbers and skill, not going to happen.

    People love to mention all the secondary supports without realizing 1 thing, while you are stacking those, the meta setup has one in each firebrand group too. Those 2 zergs clash and the side which runs out of stab first or the side with less character control loses. It's that simple.

    Aoe Resistance fields, aoe stability en mass, aoe aegis, aoe protection, MIs, reflects, you name it and the Firebrand brings it to the table.

    Yes, they are outclassed in cleansing (by a lot actually) and in healing output, but that's not their main role anyway. Firebrand is the only class which can effectively preemptively prevent loss of character control, and that is what gives them the edge and makes them the backbone of any zerg.

    Simply put, the Firebrand buys the squad enough time to act, the remaining classes make use of that time and shine. If you can't act, you've lost before the fight has even started.

    I mean, whilst this is true. The question is of no FB. Not no Guardian.

    If you utilize a DPS guardian instead (likely a condi DH) for SYG and then double up on support with some minor stabs you can likely go pretty far even assuming equal skill.

    You might make it 1nce if you have the surprise. Any competent commander will then kite and/or aggressively corrupt your initial stability and draw out the fight to use his cooldown and skill advantage.

    I'm unsure how many people in this discussion actually play support Firebrand or multiclass in WvW on a high level, but every time I play that role, be it guild internal, as guild core for a public or just in a public, I kind of need most of my cooldowns for even fights. Unless one side one-pushes the other.

    I mean yes, a group designed for a specific purpose will have to play to that purpose. But the topic creator laid out a fairly specific scenario (Organized group with no firebrands taking a t3 objective that was filled with unorganized somewhat similar numbers). In that scenario firebrands aren't nearly as important as consistent sustained healing, being able to DPS siege down, and lots of stunbreaks/incremental stab which could be fulfilled by tempests and jalis roads when SYG is down.

    OFC in a proper open field fight the standard meta will be favored. That is why it is meta. That isn't to say you couldn't make no firebrands work in certain scenarios.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    At equal numbers and skill, not going to happen.

    People love to mention all the secondary supports without realizing 1 thing, while you are stacking those, the meta setup has one in each firebrand group too. Those 2 zergs clash and the side which runs out of stab first or the side with less character control loses. It's that simple.

    Aoe Resistance fields, aoe stability en mass, aoe aegis, aoe protection, MIs, reflects, you name it and the Firebrand brings it to the table.

    Yes, they are outclassed in cleansing (by a lot actually) and in healing output, but that's not their main role anyway. Firebrand is the only class which can effectively preemptively prevent loss of character control, and that is what gives them the edge and makes them the backbone of any zerg.

    Simply put, the Firebrand buys the squad enough time to act, the remaining classes make use of that time and shine. If you can't act, you've lost before the fight has even started.

    I mean, whilst this is true. The question is of no FB. Not no Guardian.

    If you utilize a DPS guardian instead (likely a condi DH) for SYG and then double up on support with some minor stabs you can likely go pretty far even assuming equal skill.

    You might make it 1nce if you have the surprise. Any competent commander will then kite and/or aggressively corrupt your initial stability and draw out the fight to use his cooldown and skill advantage.

    I'm unsure how many people in this discussion actually play support Firebrand or multiclass in WvW on a high level, but every time I play that role, be it guild internal, as guild core for a public or just in a public, I kind of need most of my cooldowns for even fights. Unless one side one-pushes the other.

    I mean yes, a group designed for a specific purpose will have to play to that purpose. But the topic creator laid out a fairly specific scenario (Organized group with no firebrands taking a t3 objective that was filled with unorganized somewhat similar numbers). In that scenario firebrands aren't nearly as important as consistent sustained healing, being able to DPS siege down, and lots of stunbreaks/incremental stab which could be fulfilled by tempests and jalis roads when SYG is down.

    OFC in a proper open field fight the standard meta will be favored. That is why it is meta. That isn't to say you couldn't make no firebrands work in certain scenarios.

    A few ventari / herald and jalis revs would do the trick, it’s amazingly for stationary fights.

  • GWMO.4785GWMO.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    Your best defense is your offense: Scourge (mainly)