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Who would win in a fight? The Risen or The Awakened?

aries.4256aries.4256 Member ✭✭

Who would win between the minions of Zhaitan and the minions of Palawa Joko?

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  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2020

    The strong point of Awakened is their quality military training and organization so they was able even to match "the forged".
    Also their "officers" are more intelligent.

    Meanwhile one of strong points of Risen, is produce strong magic powered servants when the dead was a priest or something like. Another point is that "risen" have "dragon champions". Palawa Joko cant produce "champions", just abominations at max.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • hash.8462hash.8462 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, since dragons eat magic, both Zhaitan or any one of his many champion dragons could have simply eaten Joko consuming his magic exactly as Aurene did.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hash.8462 said:
    Well, since dragons eat magic, both Zhaitan or any one of his many champion dragons could have simply eaten Joko consuming his magic exactly as Aurene did.

    Yeah which would be a major pain in the kitten to defeat an Elder Dragon that can’t die. Maybe that’s why Jormag wants Aurene, to get a hold of that immortality magic.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @hash.8462 said:
    Well, since dragons eat magic, both Zhaitan or any one of his many champion dragons could have simply eaten Joko consuming his magic exactly as Aurene did.

    Yeah which would be a major pain in the kitten to defeat an Elder Dragon that can’t die. Maybe that’s why Jormag wants Aurene, to get a hold of that immortality magic.

    It still doesn't make sense beyond "lolplotconvenience" and lazy writing as to how Joko could influence Aurene so much, when normal magic that gets consumed has shown to have zero influence on Elder Dragons.

    At this point, the only thing I can think of that makes logical sense why Primordus can't just use the magic he consumed from countless asura gates to teleport everywhere, etc. would be because Aurene wasn't an Elder Dragon at the time, and could only use that magic because she had so little magic in total, but now that she's an Elder Dragon she's no longer capable of using that soul-binding magic.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    Interesting subject.

    If I had to choose who the superior master of death was it would have to be Zhaitan purely on the grounds that he's much older and more powerful.

    That said what i'm most curious about is the whole undead side of things.
    Zhaitan makes his minions from corpses and Joko's entire Awakened army are essentially walking corpses..
    I'm curious as to what would happen if Zhaitan had personally made a move against Joko.
    Specifically I wonder if Zhaitan could have flown over Elona and corrupted all of Joko's awakened and Joko himself into Risen purely because they are all undead corpses.. I also wonder if Joko had any power or abilities up his sleave to protect him self and his Awakened from exactly that kind of scenario.

    That said if it were that easy for Zhaitan to do that then why on Tyria didn't it do it?
    He could have vastly increased his numbers very quickly and effectively taken over another entire country by the start of Gw2 if he had done this.
    He'd also have destroyed the series of events that lead to Aurine becoming invincible due to shoddy plot armour should he have done this as well.
    Only downside would be we wouldnt have gotten the amusement that Joko provided as a villain lol

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @hash.8462 said:
    Well, since dragons eat magic, both Zhaitan or any one of his many champion dragons could have simply eaten Joko consuming his magic exactly as Aurene did.

    Yeah which would be a major pain in the kitten to defeat an Elder Dragon that can’t die. Maybe that’s why Jormag wants Aurene, to get a hold of that immortality magic.

    It still doesn't make sense beyond "lolplotconvenience" and lazy writing as to how Joko could influence Aurene so much, when normal magic that gets consumed has shown to have zero influence on Elder Dragons.

    At this point, the only thing I can think of that makes logical sense why Primordus can't just use the magic he consumed from countless asura gates to teleport everywhere, etc. would be because Aurene wasn't an Elder Dragon at the time, and could only use that magic because she had so little magic in total, but now that she's an Elder Dragon she's no longer capable of using that soul-binding magic.

    It still comes back to one of those old GW questions, how did Joko gain immortality and where did he gain immortality?

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    look people use logic..

    Orr got nerfed and reduced in npc's back in the time cus people found cursed shore to hard..
    awakenen never got nerfed so..

    risen win ez? kay?

  • hash.8462hash.8462 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It still comes back to one of those old GW questions, how did Joko gain immortality and where did he gain immortality?

    By a wish granted by a djinn, maybe? (just an idea)

    "The Scourge of Vabbi
    The earliest known mention of Joko with a date is in 757 AE, when he constructed the Bone Palace in the Desolation, a sulfurous wasteland where only demons and the undead could survive, although he had discovered a way for the living to enter this area unschathed. At some point he had seemingly discovered forbidden scriptures of the fallen god Abaddon and eventually sealed them in coffers which were hidden deep within the Vehjin Mines. However, scriptures found in at least one of the coffers turned out to be instructions to find a powerful wish-granting djinn in the Forum Highlands. Whether Joko ever approached the djinn, who would only grant a wish once every hundred years, and what he may have asked for if he did, remains unknown."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hash.8462 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It still comes back to one of those old GW questions, how did Joko gain immortality and where did he gain immortality?

    By a wish granted by a djinn, maybe? (just an idea)

    "The Scourge of Vabbi
    The earliest known mention of Joko with a date is in 757 AE, when he constructed the Bone Palace in the Desolation, a sulfurous wasteland where only demons and the undead could survive, although he had discovered a way for the living to enter this area unschathed. At some point he had seemingly discovered forbidden scriptures of the fallen god Abaddon and eventually sealed them in coffers which were hidden deep within the Vehjin Mines. However, scriptures found in at least one of the coffers turned out to be instructions to find a powerful wish-granting djinn in the Forum Highlands. Whether Joko ever approached the djinn, who would only grant a wish once every hundred years, and what he may have asked for if he did, remains unknown."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko

    Yes, super familiar with this. I suppose the question is, did this Djinn have magic that was similar to dragon or divine god magic, where by inheriting this magic would also grant the bearer immortality? It seems to be the case as Aurene is immortal.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That said if it were that easy for Zhaitan to do that then why on Tyria didn't it do it?

    I mean, why don't any of the Elder Dragons just perpetually fly over land creating mass corruption? Zhaitan could easily just have flown over Kryta and Ascalon and rose centuries worth of undead, given he was able to make Mazdak, a 1,400 year old corpse, a risen.

    Instead, all of the Elder Dragons seem to be very content on just letting their minions do the hard work instead.

    Most likely reason, in my opinion, would be that doing so uses up a lot of power and it's not something you'd do willy-nilly. It's suggested that the Elder Dragons aren't allied, and may even be rivals, if so then actively using up a bunch of power by flyiing over and constantly corrupting could leave them vulnerable to the other Elder Dragons. So large movements would only be done when there's no immediate potential threat of other ED:

    Primordus and the DSD woke up roughly the same time, and while we don't know of the DSD's movements, Primordus cleared out the underground when it woke up, driving whatever remained of asura back up to the surface, before settling where it woke up (Central Transfer Chamber), only moving again to nom up dead ED juice, which happened to be away from any other ED. Jormag moved south until nearly reaching Primordus' spot (even moved further south than Asgeir's Legacy, so it didn't stop because of losing a tooth). Kralkatorrik moved to confront a traitorous general/daughter actively seeking his death, and when moving again, did so because his previous location was dangerous (particularly, being threatened by Balthazar) until he got access to the Mists and unlimited power.

    Of course the simple answer would be "just because" and ED movements only occur when it serves a better narrative.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Yes, super familiar with this. I suppose the question is, did this Djinn have magic that was similar to dragon or divine god magic, where by inheriting this magic would also grant the bearer immortality? It seems to be the case as Aurene is immortal.

    That seems highly unlikely given that djinn are just elementals with souls per lore. Nothing implies divine or draconian origins outside of the djinn who gather and use Abaddon's remnant magic in the Desolation sands to make jackals and anti-brand protective bubbles. And it's just part of what makes Aurene's dues ex revivalia all the more convolutedly illogical to me. Worse that ArenaNet doesn't even try to explain this massive question.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That said if it were that easy for Zhaitan to do that then why on Tyria didn't it do it?

    I mean, why don't any of the Elder Dragons just perpetually fly over land creating mass corruption? Zhaitan could easily just have flown over Kryta and Ascalon and rose centuries worth of undead, given he was able to make Mazdak, a 1,400 year old corpse, a risen.

    Instead, all of the Elder Dragons seem to be very content on just letting their minions do the hard work instead.

    Most likely reason, in my opinion, would be that doing so uses up a lot of power and it's not something you'd do willy-nilly. It's suggested that the Elder Dragons aren't allied, and may even be rivals, if so then actively using up a bunch of power by flyiing over and constantly corrupting could leave them vulnerable to the other Elder Dragons. So large movements would only be done when there's no immediate potential threat of other ED:

    Primordus and the DSD woke up roughly the same time, and while we don't know of the DSD's movements, Primordus cleared out the underground when it woke up, driving whatever remained of asura back up to the surface, before settling where it woke up (Central Transfer Chamber), only moving again to nom up dead ED juice, which happened to be away from any other ED. Jormag moved south until nearly reaching Primordus' spot (even moved further south than Asgeir's Legacy, so it didn't stop because of losing a tooth). Kralkatorrik moved to confront a traitorous general/daughter actively seeking his death, and when moving again, did so because his previous location was dangerous (particularly, being threatened by Balthazar) until he got access to the Mists and unlimited power.

    Of course the simple answer would be "just because" and ED movements only occur when it serves a better narrative.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Yes, super familiar with this. I suppose the question is, did this Djinn have magic that was similar to dragon or divine god magic, where by inheriting this magic would also grant the bearer immortality? It seems to be the case as Aurene is immortal.

    That seems highly unlikely given that djinn are just elementals with souls per lore. Nothing implies divine or draconian origins outside of the djinn who gather and use Abaddon's remnant magic in the Desolation sands to make jackals and anti-brand protective bubbles. And it's just part of what makes Aurene's dues ex revivalia all the more convolutedly illogical to me. Worse that ArenaNet doesn't even try to explain this massive question.

    I suppose in order for Joko’s immortality magic to make sense, the magic itself would have to be from a dragon, a divine god or some entity equally as powerful, in order for Aurene to use the ability. Those are the only avenues that make sense.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    Most likely Joko.

    Joko's Awakened aren't just "thralls" their leaders and marshals are actually quite capable of tactics and cunning.

    This opens up alot of warfare tactics and planned engagements vs Zhaitan's Risen which will probably only focus on attacking immediate threats en masse like the battle of Claw Island, which was easily retaken by the Pact initiative with a joint campaign, which led not only to the Pact burrowing deep into Orr, but totally decimating Zhaitan in one single war effort.

    Joko's fall is actually pretty hilarious in this respect because he basically "invited" the enemy's strongest warrior to his homefront and got killed.

    Even after his fall however, his former thralls and the free Awakened are still a very functional force to be reckoned with, choosing to settle their disputes however through politics due to the looming Kralkatorik threat.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That said if it were that easy for Zhaitan to do that then why on Tyria didn't it do it?

    I mean, why don't any of the Elder Dragons just perpetually fly over land creating mass corruption? Zhaitan could easily just have flown over Kryta and Ascalon and rose centuries worth of undead, given he was able to make Mazdak, a 1,400 year old corpse, a risen.

    Instead, all of the Elder Dragons seem to be very content on just letting their minions do the hard work instead.

    Most likely reason, in my opinion, would be that doing so uses up a lot of power and it's not something you'd do willy-nilly. It's suggested that the Elder Dragons aren't allied, and may even be rivals, if so then actively using up a bunch of power by flyiing over and constantly corrupting could leave them vulnerable to the other Elder Dragons. So large movements would only be done when there's no immediate potential threat of other ED:

    Primordus and the DSD woke up roughly the same time, and while we don't know of the DSD's movements, Primordus cleared out the underground when it woke up, driving whatever remained of asura back up to the surface, before settling where it woke up (Central Transfer Chamber), only moving again to nom up dead ED juice, which happened to be away from any other ED. Jormag moved south until nearly reaching Primordus' spot (even moved further south than Asgeir's Legacy, so it didn't stop because of losing a tooth). Kralkatorrik moved to confront a traitorous general/daughter actively seeking his death, and when moving again, did so because his previous location was dangerous (particularly, being threatened by Balthazar) until he got access to the Mists and unlimited power.

    Of course the simple answer would be "just because" and ED movements only occur when it serves a better narrative.

    Yeah unfortunately that appears to be the case.

    Outside of Tyria there is a whole planet to explore yet all the Elder Dragons seem content to stay in very close proximity to one another on the same continent.
    I've heard before that Ley Lines are one reason they're not spred out across the planet even though ley lines are spred out across the planet negating that as a legitimate argument imo.
    I basically write this problem down as Anet only having 3 predefined regions of the world (Tyria, Cantha & Elona) prior to Gw2 and they didn't have the resources or time to have each dragon on a different continent requiring a massive amount of new world building for the vanilla game.. which logically would have made more sense tbh.
    A shame but part of me is still hopeful that Elder Dragons may one day flee the continent of Tyria and take us to Cantha and other new worlds we've never been before but that's unlikely to happen even though with less of them in the world now the concept of rival ED territory has diminished and continues to do so with every dead dragon.

    DSD in the ocean, Jormag confined in the North.
    If Primordus were awake right now he would be able to claim all landmass south of the Shiverpeaks with no rival dragon except Aurine to stop him, hell with his ability to tunnel through the earth he could take over all landmass on the planet with exception to any Ice regions that Jormag holds claim over.
    I'm very much looking forward to Primordus' reawakening in this current world, should be interesting.
    Also looking forward to finding out if my theory on it's design change is accurate or whether im just wishful thinking there hahaha

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Most likely Joko.

    Joko's Awakened aren't just "thralls" their leaders and marshals are actually quite capable of tactics and cunning.

    This opens up alot of warfare tactics and planned engagements vs Zhaitan's Risen which will probably only focus on attacking immediate threats en masse like the battle of Claw Island, which was easily retaken by the Pact initiative with a joint campaign, which led not only to the Pact burrowing deep into Orr, but totally decimating Zhaitan in one single war effort.

    This wasn't actually showcased much in the game very well but Zhaitans minions also had the capability for tactics and cunning etc.
    Zhaitan was able to absorb all of the knowledge of those he corrupted into undead and put that knowledge to use when commanding his undead army.

    This is why he had a massive fleet of undead ships, a fleet of transport ships to bring him fresh corpses and magical artifacts and even seige equipment like trebuches and bone walls.
    He's the only Dragon who has displayed any kind of higher intelligent military mind like that, performing ambushes, traps and other organized military type tactics.
    Mordremoth did have some skill in this area too (likely gained from his Sylvari converts) but not on the same level as Zhaitan imo who grew smarter with every military mind he added to his undead horde.

    On Paper Zhaitan is exceptionally adept at warfare compared to other Dragons due to all the knowledge he claims from soldiers and generals etc that he corrupts.
    In game though this wasn't really displayed very well and it is a shame they couldn't have done a better job with Zhaitan.. we all still sour at the thought of his actual battle in Arah specially when compared to the awesome cinematic encounters we get with Mouth of Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik.
    Still it shows the game has come a long way over the years.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    I suppose in order for Joko’s immortality magic to make sense, the magic itself would have to be from a dragon, a divine god or some entity equally as powerful, in order for Aurene to use the ability. Those are the only avenues that make sense.

    Not necessarily. It could be a different reason such as the amount of magic Aurene had at the time didn't dilute non-cosmic energy, for example. But this would work best if it also meant Aurene is no longer immortal; which, imo, would be the best thing for them to do with Aurene because having an immortal Elder Dragon to come and save the day would make for a kitten plot - either you have dues ex machinas which ruin any tension, or you have the burning question of "why isn't Aurene helping us?" - but if she was vulnerable to and weaker than Jormag or Primordus then it'd make sense for her to not be in direct conflict.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah unfortunately that appears to be the case.

    Outside of Tyria there is a whole planet to explore yet all the Elder Dragons seem content to stay in very close proximity to one another on the same continent.
    I've heard before that Ley Lines are one reason they're not spred out across the planet even though ley lines are spred out across the planet negating that as a legitimate argument imo.
    I basically write this problem down as Anet only having 3 predefined regions of the world (Tyria, Cantha & Elona) prior to Gw2 and they didn't have the resources or time to have each dragon on a different continent requiring a massive amount of new world building for the vanilla game.. which logically would have made more sense tbh.
    A shame but part of me is still hopeful that Elder Dragons may one day flee the continent of Tyria and take us to Cantha and other new worlds we've never been before but that's unlikely to happen even though with less of them in the world now the concept of rival ED territory has diminished and continues to do so with every dead dragon.

    DSD in the ocean, Jormag confined in the North.
    If Primordus were awake right now he would be able to claim all landmass south of the Shiverpeaks with no rival dragon except Aurine to stop him, hell with his ability to tunnel through the earth he could take over all landmass on the planet with exception to any Ice regions that Jormag holds claim over.
    I'm very much looking forward to Primordus' reawakening in this current world, should be interesting.
    Also looking forward to finding out if my theory on it's design change is accurate or whether im just wishful thinking there hahaha

    This is one of the reasons why I dislike Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's placements. Jormag, Primordus, and Kralkatorrik were all built up in EotN for their locations, and having 2 or 3 dragons at/near a continent of major magical events makes sense - especially with the added lore of the Bloodstone and the last magic in the world being at/around Central Tyria.

    And it's the last bit that I suspect is why the six Elder Dragons seem so interested in Tyria (even the DSD seems to be slowly moving towards Central Tyria over the 200 years) - not ley lines, but that it was the place of the world's last magic before they went into hibernation (because of the Bloodstones' creation, which seems to be invisible to their senses). Which, to me, makes some sense.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    This is one of the reasons why I dislike Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's placements. Jormag, Primordus, and Kralkatorrik were all built up in EotN for their locations, and having 2 or 3 dragons at/near a continent of major magical events makes sense - especially with the added lore of the Bloodstone and the last magic in the world being at/around Central Tyria.

    And it's the last bit that I suspect is why the six Elder Dragons seem so interested in Tyria (even the DSD seems to be slowly moving towards Central Tyria over the 200 years) - not ley lines, but that it was the place of the world's last magic before they went into hibernation (because of the Bloodstones' creation, which seems to be invisible to their senses). Which, to me, makes some sense.

    Yeah guess that make sense, although Jormag was sleeping further north than the far shiverpeaks and any EoTN maps we played on in Gw1 from what I read.
    It pushed the Kodan south after breaking apart the landmass in the far north so I assume it's the only Dragon that was pretty far removed from central Tyria during the last awakening, possibly the first to fall back to sleep as well due to lack of magic to feed on.
    Aside from DSD who's location remains unknown, all the others were much closer to maps we all know in game.

    That said though wasn't Zhaitan the reason unbeknownst to them that made the Gods decide to found Orr where they did?
    Pretty sure I read that too somewhere so that makes Zhaitan kind of the source for why many of these magical events took place in central Tyria.
    The only magical event I can recall that took place during the last ED cycle was the ancient races attempt to kill Zhaitan which ultimately failed, I believe this also took place in what is now Orr as well which would mean Zhaitan has potentially sat his rotting zombie dragon tails in that region of the world for multiple ED cycles without moving.
    With that in mind it could just mean that Zhaitan won the last round of who can consume the most magic and becoming the reason for why central Tyria is the place where the last magic in the world was located.. or am I missing something else there, knowing me I probably am XD kitten memory unfortunately lol

  • Zhaitan has sentient troops.

    I don't think Orr's soldiers, wizards, and nobles have trouble defeating or rivaling the awakened.

    Not to mention Blightghast the Plaguebringer or Tequatl, Zhaitan still has Mouth of Zhaitan (which can devour magic), Eye of Zhaitan, the various Priests of the temples and abominations, in terms of pure power there is no comparison.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah guess that make sense, although Jormag was sleeping further north than the far shiverpeaks and any EoTN maps we played on in Gw1 from what I read.
    It pushed the Kodan south after breaking apart the landmass in the far north so I assume it's the only Dragon that was pretty far removed from central Tyria during the last awakening, possibly the first to fall back to sleep as well due to lack of magic to feed on.

    Well, Jormag wasn't too far away, since the dwarves had encounters with it / its minions as per the Sanguinary Blade.

    That said though wasn't Zhaitan the reason unbeknownst to them that made the Gods decide to found Orr where they did?
    Pretty sure I read that too somewhere so that makes Zhaitan kind of the source for why many of these magical events took place in central Tyria.

    Not quite. It was The Artesian Waters that drew the Six Gods to Tyria, not Zhaitan. Though the Artesian Waters is likely a ley line nexus that was fed by Zhaitan as it slumbered, it was not Zhaitan itself, and contains more magic than just Zhaitan.

    The only magical event I can recall that took place during the last ED cycle was the ancient races attempt to kill Zhaitan which ultimately failed, I believe this also took place in what is now Orr as well which would mean Zhaitan has potentially sat his rotting zombie dragon tails in that region of the world for multiple ED cycles without moving.
    With that in mind it could just mean that Zhaitan won the last round of who can consume the most magic and becoming the reason for why central Tyria is the place where the last magic in the world was located.. or am I missing something else there, knowing me I probably am XD kitten memory unfortunately lol

    I would disagree. Firstly, there's no location mentioned in the Mursaat Lore Tablet for where the battle against Zhaitan took place. More importantly, Glint was purified from Kralkatorrik's control in Arah by the Forgotten, which wouldn't make sense if Zhaitan nested there during the previous dragonrise.

    If we compile the lore of Edge of Destiny, Arah explorable, Orrian History Scrolls, and the Mursaat Lore Tablets, then it seems to me that Zhaitan moved to Central Tyria and Orr after Kralkatorrik went to sleep.

    The order of events of the previous Dragonrise as I believe it to be is:

    • The "elder races" hoard magic, making them elites above all other races. Source
    • At roughly 10,000 BE: The Elder Dragons wake up and begin devastating the elder races, wiping out the Giganticus Lupicus. (Source: Timeline)
    • Five of the elder races unite in an alliance (jotun, dwarves, mursaat, seers, Forgotten) and began sharing magic and spells with each other. However, the mursaat kept some of their magic to themselves. Source 1 Source 2
    • During this time, Arah already existed, and Kralkatorrik's domain stretched from Crystal Desert to Orr and probably Blood Legion Homelands (e.g., half of Central Tyria). At some point, Kralkatorrik was fought and injured, which would not heal even while in hibernation. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3: EoD
    • While the jotun, seers, and dwarves were dealing with their own issues (such as dwarves fighting multiple Great Destroyers), the mursaat and Forgotten attempted a joint assault on Zhaitan at an unknown location. This ended up failing. Source 1, Source 2
    • After the attempt to kill Zhaitan failed, the mursaat fled into a half-world (Source: Arah); the Forgotten performed a ritual on Glint at Orr at roughly 1769 BE which removed many of her pre-purification memories (Source 1: Arah, Source 2, Source 3; the seers created the Bloodstone (Source: Arah); Zhaitan moves to Orr; Glint betrays Kralkatorrik after Kralkatorrik goes into hibernation (Source: EoD).
    • Some point between 1769 BE and 786 BE, the Six Gods arrive on the world at the "stones of Arah" and brings humanity with them. They then apparently take humanity elsewhere. (Source: Orrian History Scrolls; Timeline)
    • 786 BE: The first of humanity sails to Cantha, landing on northern Shing Jea/Canthan Mainland. Decades later, Kurzicks and Luxons show up individually from across water as well. Source

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  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Outside of Tyria there is a whole planet to explore yet all the Elder Dragons seem content to stay in very close proximity to one another on the same continent.

    Perhaps because there are "terrible things lurking just beyond the horizon", as Jormag said? Who's to say what is on the rest of the world, or even, other worlds. There is a great deal of cosmology and ties to the stars with the dragons. We know for a fact that they are moving pieces of a whole, but what whole? I lot of what we see as plot holes could likely be gaps in our current knowledge.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I suppose in order for Joko’s immortality magic to make sense, the magic itself would have to be from a dragon, a divine god or some entity equally as powerful, in order for Aurene to use the ability. Those are the only avenues that make sense.

    Not necessarily. It could be a different reason such as the amount of magic Aurene had at the time didn't dilute non-cosmic energy, for example. But this would work best if it also meant Aurene is no longer immortal; which, imo, would be the best thing for them to do with Aurene because having an immortal Elder Dragon to come and save the day would make for a kitten plot - either you have dues ex machinas which ruin any tension, or you have the burning question of "why isn't Aurene helping us?" - but if she was vulnerable to and weaker than Jormag or Primordus then it'd make sense for her to not be in direct conflict.

    So at the time she consumed Joko’s magic she has the energy that she received from Mordremoth(Zhaitan) as an egg and the energy that she received from Balthazar. Which is probably a much high quantity then the magic she received from Joko, just based on the visuals alone. Then she also has the magic she absorbed during the Glint trials as well. Best case scenario Joko’s magic constitutes for 1/4 of her magic, buts it’s probably less.

    If Anet does take that immortality ability away, I do hope they have a better explanation then magic diluting, because I think that will just confuse a lot of people. That or some other entity attempts to unbind her immortality magic, just as she did to Joko.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If we compile the lore of Edge of Destiny, Arah explorable, Orrian History Scrolls, and the Mursaat Lore Tablets, then it seems to me that Zhaitan moved to Central Tyria and Orr after Kralkatorrik went to sleep.

    The order of events of the previous Dragonrise as I believe it to be is:

    • The "elder races" hoard magic, making them elites above all other races. Source
    • At roughly 10,000 BE: The Elder Dragons wake up and begin devastating the elder races, wiping out the Giganticus Lupicus. (Source: Timeline)
    • Five of the elder races unite in an alliance (jotun, dwarves, mursaat, seers, Forgotten) and began sharing magic and spells with each other. However, the mursaat kept some of their magic to themselves. Source 1 Source 2
    • During this time, Arah already existed, and Kralkatorrik's domain stretched from Crystal Desert to Orr and probably Blood Legion Homelands (e.g., half of Central Tyria). At some point, Kralkatorrik was fought and injured, which would not heal even while in hibernation. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3: EoD
    • While the jotun, seers, and dwarves were dealing with their own issues (such as dwarves fighting multiple Great Destroyers), the mursaat and Forgotten attempted a joint assault on Zhaitan at an unknown location. This ended up failing. Source 1, Source 2
    • After the attempt to kill Zhaitan failed, the mursaat fled into a half-world (Source: Arah); the Forgotten performed a ritual on Glint at Orr at roughly 1769 BE which removed many of her pre-purification memories (Source 1: Arah, Source 2, Source 3; the seers created the Bloodstone (Source: Arah); Zhaitan moves to Orr; Glint betrays Kralkatorrik after Kralkatorrik goes into hibernation (Source: EoD).
    • Some point between 1769 BE and 786 BE, the Six Gods arrive on the world at the "stones of Arah" and brings humanity with them. They then apparently take humanity elsewhere. (Source: Orrian History Scrolls; Timeline)
    • 786 BE: The first of humanity sails to Cantha, landing on northern Shing Jea/Canthan Mainland. Decades later, Kurzicks and Luxons show up individually from across water as well. Source

    this "script" is worth a amazing prequel.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    So at the time she consumed Joko’s magic she has the energy that she received from Mordremoth(Zhaitan) as an egg and the energy that she received from Balthazar. Which is probably a much high quantity then the magic she received from Joko, just based on the visuals alone. Then she also has the magic she absorbed during the Glint trials as well. Best case scenario Joko’s magic constitutes for 1/4 of her magic, buts it’s probably less.

    If Anet does take that immortality ability away, I do hope they have a better explanation then magic diluting, because I think that will just confuse a lot of people. That or some other entity attempts to unbind her immortality magic, just as she did to Joko.

    Aurene got less than a quarter of magic from Mordremoth - possibly less than 1/8th. When Mordremoth died, most of his magic split into four directions. One direction did go north towards Tarir and the egg, but this same magic went further to the Maguuma Bloodstone expanding it far more than Zhaitan's death did. With Balthazar, she only took away enough magic in the eye of the massive-Vabbi-consuming storm to keep us from being hobbled - Kralkatorrik took way more than half of his power, and Balthazar's might wasn't on par to a proper god or Elder Dragon.

    By the time of Season 4, she seems on par to a typical dragon champion like Tequatl or Claw of Jormag to me. Which would be enough for a full helping of "lich magic" to have an effect, compared to having the full might of an Elder Dragon. Presuming Aurene had eaten all of Kralkatorrik's magic, that would most of the Maguuma Bloodstone and at least a skimming of Primordus' and Jormag's (via Balthazar), a portion of Zhaitan (at least a third), and just under a quarter of Mordremoth's magic, and of course all of Kralkatorrik's.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • I would vouch for awakened, because they're more intelligent and they can be re-awakened. Risen are more like a simple zombies, probably the best for swarming an area and running in massive numbers. But... is it possible to turn Risen into Awakened? Creating Risen is a ritual, creating Awakened is more like a quick spell and can be done everywhere (just need someone who can do this).

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Creating Risen is a ritual, creating Awakened is more like a quick spell and can be done everywhere (just need someone who can do this).

    I think you got that backwards. Risen can be made anywhere and, in the presence of a dragon champion, can occur before slain people even hit the ground (per Sea of Sorrows novel when Port Stalwart was attacked, it mentions how people don't even hit the ground before their skin turns gray and decayed and they turn on their enemies - and the dragon champion, Captain Whiting, was far off shore from this).

    Awakened, however, cannot be made on the fly. We never see such, at least.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Awakened, however, cannot be made on the fly. We never see such, at least.

    Joko more or less does that in the Fractal... although that still doesn't come close to matching the scale on which the Risen previously did it.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Awakened, however, cannot be made on the fly. We never see such, at least.

    Joko more or less does that in the Fractal... although that still doesn't come close to matching the scale on which the Risen previously did it.

    When Joko's prominently the only one capable of doing it, I don't think it counts as 'on the fly'. Either way, there's much conflicting information on the subject, in different mediums and even in-game.

    To me, the most powerful risen definitely strike out as more potent than the most powerful awakened. I suppose the answer to the question relies on what we count as 'minions'. Dragon champions? Simple army fodder?