Firebrands, the most enigmatic class. Do they need a nerf? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Firebrands, the most enigmatic class. Do they need a nerf?

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  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Like I said, if someone can muster a compelling argument to what specifically needs to be nerfed and why, I'd listen. One of the more common complaints I hear are symbols to which, I despise this mechanic. The fact that EVERY weapon has a symbol attached to it is rather annoying. It's a static/unfun mechanic in a dynamically mobile game. If it were me, I'd redo the whole symbol thing into something completely different.

    Wayyyy to much boon access. Also, way to much support for the damage it can deal. It's a major contributor to the current power/boon creep. Boons across the map need to be reined in, of which FB will need to take a big hit from. Also, it needs not be able to do as much damage as it can while also being carried defensively by its tomes/mantras. I'm not saying it can do NO damage but it either needs to be good in defenese and weak in offense or vise versa. Right now it can play above average at both at the same time.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    FB needs nerfs... It's needed nerfs for a while now. #YesImAHater

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Like I said, if someone can muster a compelling argument to what specifically needs to be nerfed and why, I'd listen. One of the more common complaints I hear are symbols to which, I despise this mechanic. The fact that EVERY weapon has a symbol attached to it is rather annoying. It's a static/unfun mechanic in a dynamically mobile game. If it were me, I'd redo the whole symbol thing into something completely different.

    Edit to the post above: There's plenty of counter play. Boonstrip/corruption, focus-fire, kiting. As stated above in some earlier posts and my own, FB has little-to-no chase or escapeability, no duration blocks, no stealth, no evasion on skills. It's sustain is 99% active play(1% being virtue of resolve).

    Remember, you're playing a GUARDian. Symbols are appropriate for those guarding a location.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    FB does not need nerfs

    Regardless of what it is Ovark, it's still an annoying/unfun static mechanic that doesn't belong and only works in spvp because It's conquest. This mechanic wouldn't fly nearly as well in a deathmatch situation where anyone with average intelligence keeps moving around. Secondly to the post above with boons, the duration of boons is insignificant with the death of Harrierbrand, variation means nothing if the duration is a joke. Thank you for your responses.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • ZolracAtrox.2908ZolracAtrox.2908 Member ✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    He needs Big Nerfs in all game modes.
    PvP: Nerf condi spam, boon spam, symbol damage and healing output; add cd's to mantras, reduce axe pull range. I would like to add the Elite Skill nerf, but the healthy core guard needs that skill a lot.
    PvE: Nerf boon output A LOT; nerf burn condition A LOT and symbol damage for give him a single role, not the "Can be Healer, CDPS, Condi Support, Power Support"
    WvW: Nerf retailation share, reflect bubble, Condi cleanse and buff Tempest Condi cleanse and Scrapper autosustain for zergs, so we can have 3 support options (1 Stab sharer, 1 Stealth and healing sharer and 1 condi cleanse class)

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    FB does not need nerfs

    Also, make no mistake, I want to see FB nerfs in the following areas:

    Unrelenting Criticism: Redo this trait completely, no need for a daze on the symbol, too much CC spam.
    Mantra of Truth: Remove the immob on the last charge. It's already a solid skill, immob adds too much.

    I'll think of more but these two would help for sure.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    Yes, but only very slightly .
    Maybe Shining river needs a touch. Maybe a slight damage nerf or a condi spread shave.
    I'm totally fine with guards being support as long as they have to take their time getting to a point or be escorted, and can't beat down people in addition to being omegatanky. The core of that is fine, but pick one or the other. If theyre support, their offensive capabilities should buff their allies but their defensive ones should affect them.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    FB does not need nerfs

    While I understand the posts above sentiment, condition spread of a fb isn't nearly as insane a most other professions. My issue with that proposed Nerf is that if you do that and all you have again is burning with nothing to keep it ticking (like core and dh) it'll never be useful.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Others

    I came to notice that players/meta don't ever have:

    • Unblockables which is a key weakness to the entire profession because of minimal i-frames and evades.
    • Stability to completely nullify the CC chain they heavily rely on.
    • Boon removal because they have access to all boons but alacrity.
    • Patience to wait out symbols.

    In fact a lot of players/meta builds have:

    • Uneccessary amount of evades.
    • Too much focus on damage.
    • No quirks with multiple benefits.

    Taking that into account, I have a hard time to accept firebrands are OP because I am pretty much a counter to them and I get to see through those weakness that if they were nerfed further. They'd fall out of the game completely, I don't know what people wants to be nerfed, but they should at least be curious to approach a similar playstyle or consider the weaknesses to the build itself on other professions to notice how people are driven by their personal taste rather than creativity to think that something is OP.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    Firebrand needs a nerf itself but not so much the core lines. Like symbol damage was always a thing but the core lines dont have the pressure to force / hold you in the symbols like firebrand does. Core and DH also dont have the conditional pressure or constant boon application that firebrand has which is why its so strong. Lets also not forget the use of instant mantras which are just generally a problem.

    Ideally people are using firebrand which was designed as a support as not a support and any time a profession has done this especially with its elite lines but not specificlly with its elite lines it often is allowed to keep the damage it has at the core level, gain slightly more damage due to the boon synergy that the support line provides, gaints greater sustain from the support line than their personal defensive line. So you end up with a profession that has the damage of core guardian or DH without their sustain weaknesses when built offensively. The same things is also happening to warrior with the (supportive) tactics line. Of course you see how many warriors are running it now for non supportive reasons and how much benefit it grants them. This is one of the major problems with this game. Any time anet does anything with the idea of "support" i get worried.

    Does Firebrand have counters? Of course it does but not enough of them. ITs simply over-performing when used for not only support but non supportive roles.

    Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

    Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

    But yes The firebrand line, its mantras, and its tomes need some adjustments to balance it out. Either reduce its supportive power considerably to make it no a support or reduce the supportive tools to be considerably less effective on the caster while still allowing them to be strong on allies.

    If firebrand enforced players to play it with the idea it was designed for and not some glass boon cannon that splatters conditions over you no one would likely see it as a problem anet left too much freedom for players to exploit the supportive side of it for themselves.

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

    Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

    I agree not just with Firebrand, but for all classes. I have always felt that outgoing healing modifiers and traits like Herald's Elevated Compassion are healthier for the game because while they make an impact in group play, they have no effect on one's own survivability, prohibiting unhealthy or undesirable builds to arise. I think a comprehensive sweep like this would require major reevaluation for builds' offense potential to be narrowed down because that support-as-self-defense stuff has become integral for a lot or builds in order to survive, but I do like the idea of further differentiating bunker builds from support builds, putting further emphasis on teamplay and protecting the support.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

    Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

    I agree not just with Firebrand, but for all classes. I have always felt that outgoing healing modifiers and traits like Herald's Elevated Compassion are healthier for the game because while they make an impact in group play, they have no effect on one's own survivability, prohibiting unhealthy or undesirable builds to arise. I think a comprehensive sweep like this would require major reevaluation for builds' offense potential to be narrowed down because that support-as-self-defense stuff has become integral for a lot or builds in order to survive, but I do like the idea of further differentiating bunker builds from support builds, putting further emphasis on teamplay and protecting the support.

    Thats the sad part really most professions dont use their self sustain lines anymore even when the self sustain lines are good like warriors defensive line.
    I get that like Necros Death magic is questionable and Ele Earth magic is questionable both lines still could stand to be better by a long shot which is why people opt for blood and or water for sustain both of which are aimed more in the supportive aspect. Really i can only blame anet for over looking these things as the support lines do provide way more personal sustain than the personal defensive lines do. To be honest this just came to my mind a few weeks ago when i had to really sit and think why a support elite spec like firebrand has all the things it has while being able to do the damage it does. As well as why so many warriors run tactics yet clearly are not there to support while having the insane damage they have.
    Even herald was once considered more of a support yet was doing insane amounts of damage while being allowed to keep big chunks of its supportive boon power to be used selfishly.
    Then my mind started going to the past things people dont use as much anymore. Tempest, Druid, Chrono, Scourge... all of which were designed with the idea of support yet were capable of being busted as heck when built under the idea of not doing supportive roles and holding some big portion of their supportive power as their own means of sustain.

    I would say .... ANET stop designing new support professions, skills, traits and stuff for your game till you figure out how to not let people use it straight up selfishly cause it breaks balance lol.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I came to notice that players/meta don't ever have:

    • Unblockables which is a key weakness to the entire profession because of minimal i-frames and evades.

    Because not every profession has a plethora of unblockables. Rev has the most common access with its phase transversal and considering the potential damage rev can do in 2 hits its why they counter firebrands. Unblockable skills become considerably less common after this with and dont serve as much value against the majority of other professions.

    • Stability to completely nullify the CC chain they heavily rely on.

    Because some professions dont have a ton of stability that last for long durations. The ones that do are also over performing or stand a much fair chance against them. Warriors, Rangers, Weavers, etc.

    • Boon removal because they have access to all boons but alacrity.

    Because the best boon hate elite was thrown into the dust with wvw updates back when updates were still tied together. Firebrand can cc combo it to death pretty easily too. Also only 3-4 professions of the entire 9 have the power to rip boons and 2 of them not very commonly. Firebrand also replaces its boons too quickly (uptime is too high)

    • Patience to wait out symbols.

    This is true and valid and it works on core and DH just not Firebrand which is why you dont see symbol complaints with just core and DH (go back to cc chain issue)

    In fact a lot of players/meta builds have:

    • Uneccessary amount of evades.

    This is true but damage avoidance is better than damage soaking the two things need have less of a gap in effectiveness but so long as damage is as high as it is right now people wont think this way cause in some cases 1 or 2 taps is death.

    • Too much focus on damage.

    Because anet forces you too and its the whole reason why offensive firebrand builds even exists right now.... Offensive power works as a better means of defense than actually investing in defensive stats and in some cases defensive tools (depending on the profession)

    • No quirks with multiple benefits.

    Almost every profession or one of its elites in the game including firebrand

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

    Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

    I agree not just with Firebrand, but for all classes. I have always felt that outgoing healing modifiers and traits like Herald's Elevated Compassion are healthier for the game because while they make an impact in group play, they have no effect on one's own survivability, prohibiting unhealthy or undesirable builds to arise. I think a comprehensive sweep like this would require major reevaluation for builds' offense potential to be narrowed down because that support-as-self-defense stuff has become integral for a lot or builds in order to survive, but I do like the idea of further differentiating bunker builds from support builds, putting further emphasis on teamplay and protecting the support.

    Thats the sad part really most professions dont use their self sustain lines anymore even when the self sustain lines are good like warriors defensive line.
    I get that like Necros Death magic is questionable and Ele Earth magic is questionable both lines still could stand to be better by a long shot which is why people opt for blood and or water for sustain both of which are aimed more in the supportive aspect. Really i can only blame anet for over looking these things as the support lines do provide way more personal sustain than the personal defensive lines do. To be honest this just came to my mind a few weeks ago when i had to really sit and think why a support elite spec like firebrand has all the things it has while being able to do the damage it does. As well as why so many warriors run tactics yet clearly are not there to support while having the insane damage they have.
    Even herald was once considered more of a support yet was doing insane amounts of damage while being allowed to keep big chunks of its supportive boon power to be used selfishly.
    Then my mind started going to the past things people dont use as much anymore. Tempest, Druid, Chrono, Scourge... all of which were designed with the idea of support yet were capable of being busted as heck when built under the idea of not doing supportive roles and holding some big portion of their supportive power as their own means of sustain.

    I would say .... ANET stop designing new support professions, skills, traits and stuff for your game till you figure out how to not let people use it straight up selfishly cause it breaks balance lol.

    Yeah, I would say this is largely due to the fact that ANet attempts to design e-specs with versatility in mind. They want to have the support-esque e-specs be applicable to a variety of different roles, generally speaking. We can see this with Chrono, Herald, Renegade, Tempest, Druid, Scourge, Firebrand, Scrapper, and probably more that I am forgetting. Considering we only have two different e-specs to choose from, I can understand why they'd do this, but I would definitely say this has a big implication on balance. Roles become a lot more muddled and have a potential for too much versatility. I suppose part of this has to do with this game being originally designed as an alternative to the MMO holy trinity.

    Ultimately, I would like to see a further emphasis on well-executed tradeoffs, such as FB only having access to one tome through the GM (but having it interact differently), traits like Herald's Draconic Echo providing a significant sacrifice for the benefit it brings, etc. This is just a general design philosophy that I consider to be healthy. I am absolutely not a fan of these one-size-fits-all builds with too much of everything. I would say that despite the garbage mess that the e-spec is in, Druid's GMs are a good reflection of that: each offers considerable benefit for a specific purpose without over inflating the general kit.

  • Bear.9568Bear.9568 Member ✭✭✭

    Gut FB and let it bleed all over the forums. It is literally the only spec in the game that over-performs in every area, DPS/Support/Tank/Stability/Aegis/Boon stacking. Steal/remove an FB's boons and watch the insane rate of reapplication.

    WvW- FB
    T4 FoTM - FB
    PvP/AT - FB
    Raid - FB

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    Others

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Because not every profession has a plethora of unblockables. Rev has the most common access with its phase transversal and considering the potential damage rev can do in 2 hits its why they counter firebrands. Unblockable skills become considerably less common after this with and dont serve as much value against the majority of other professions.

    Banish Enchantment, Nothing Can Save You, Swipe + Bountiful Theft + S/D, Signet of Might, Signet of the Wild. Any of those would easily get rid of a FB in the right opportunity with any sort of pressure following.

    Because some professions dont have a ton of stability that last for long durations. The ones that do are also over performing or stand a much fair chance against them. Warriors, Rangers, Weavers, etc.

    Warriors rarely run Stability today, as for the other two I still think Revenant is miles above those two as well as giving it.

    Because the best boon hate elite was thrown into the dust with wvw updates back when updates were still tied together. Firebrand can cc combo it to death pretty easily too. Also only 3-4 professions of the entire 9 have the power to rip boons and 2 of them not very commonly. Firebrand also replaces its boons too quickly (uptime is too high)

    Necromancer, Revenant and Thief in order would have an easy time making sure that FB doesn't stay for long.

    This is true and valid and it works on core and DH just not Firebrand which is why you dont see symbol complaints with just core and DH (go back to cc chain issue)

    Guardians be Guardians, they are meant to dominate an area, it's in their name. I don't think Symbols should be nerfed at all if they can be free casted from afar.

    This is true but damage avoidance is better than damage soaking the two things need have less of a gap in effectiveness but so long as damage is as high as it is right now people wont think this way cause in some cases 1 or 2 taps is death.

    I want to agree, but that's just because the only professions that can legitimately tank without the reliance of blocks/stealth/kitting/evading in order is Revenant, Necromancer, Elementalist, Warrior and Soulbeast because of their access to Weakness and other means to sponge damage directly no other classes truly have.

    Because anet forces you too and its the whole reason why offensive firebrand builds even exists right now.... Offensive power works as a better means of defense than actually investing in defensive stats and in some cases defensive tools (depending on the profession)

    Yes all amulets have Power or Condition to keep a degree of combat potential which is also why Magi doesn't exist anymore, but that in regards all amulets fill a niche that one certain profession could excel, even Knights. The game is really complex yet stupidly narrowed down because "meta".

    Almost every profession or one of its elites in the game including firebrand

    No what I meant there was that everyone runs something predictable and generic because "meta", I'll have you know that there's this Reaper running in ranked with Signet of the Undeath which has turned a lot of games around by just changing one utility slot, some Guardians have finally realized the strength of Save Yourselves pulling /ALL/ conditions around them in a team fight. There's a lot of things to do outside the box that requires just a slightly harder curve, all it takes is daring.

    @Leonidrex.5649

    Banish Enchantment destroy Firebrands, I take it from Naru complaining about it and dying more than a few times the same game because of it.

    In my experience, Firebrands are the least of my worries in any games. They're almost free kills, I wouldn't say because it takes a lil to kill them but no less than Weaver spin to win or P/W spam, those takes at least 5 hours each.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

    Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

    I agree not just with Firebrand, but for all classes. I have always felt that outgoing healing modifiers and traits like Herald's Elevated Compassion are healthier for the game because while they make an impact in group play, they have no effect on one's own survivability, prohibiting unhealthy or undesirable builds to arise. I think a comprehensive sweep like this would require major reevaluation for builds' offense potential to be narrowed down because that support-as-self-defense stuff has become integral for a lot or builds in order to survive, but I do like the idea of further differentiating bunker builds from support builds, putting further emphasis on teamplay and protecting the support.

    Technically Druids for instance and eles could easily use their skills they use to heal in aoe to heal themselves so unless their heals have a line of You cannot heal yourself then you cannot heal, so it still counts as sustain, so how do you prevent it without adding a line of you cannot heal yourself?

    Then again druids and eles are great examples of self-sustain gained from the healing lines.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    Symbol brand is braindead spam. It has way way waaay to many packets of damage allowing way to many applications of burn.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I came to notice that players/meta don't ever have:

    • Unblockables which is a key weakness to the entire profession because of minimal i-frames and evades.
    • Stability to completely nullify the CC chain they heavily rely on.
    • Boon removal because they have access to all boons but alacrity.
    • Patience to wait out symbols.

    In fact a lot of players/meta builds have:

    • Uneccessary amount of evades.
    • Too much focus on damage.
    • No quirks with multiple benefits.

    Taking that into account, I have a hard time to accept firebrands are OP because I am pretty much a counter to them and I get to see through those weakness that if they were nerfed further. They'd fall out of the game completely, I don't know what people wants to be nerfed, but they should at least be curious to approach a similar playstyle or consider the weaknesses to the build itself on other professions to notice how people are driven by their personal taste rather than creativity to think that something is OP.

    Unblockables are pretty hard to come by these days...Actually, it's one of the few things I think anet has been doing a pretty good job of keeping control of (what with its removal from soulbeast and Death's Judgement). However, weaknesses mean little if there's nothing anybody can really do feasibly exploit it.

    There's plenty of boon removal flying around, especialy with core necro + its boon corrupt making a comeback. Thing is, Firebrand pukes out enough boons that it has much less of an impact. FB # of boons is fine - uptime could use some shaves, imo. I gave it the 'ol college try at once point and paid a bit more attention to some Firebrands during teamfights, just to see what I could do against their boon uptime. It...certainly helped, but def not as much as such an investment should, imo - hence 'shaves' instead of 'removal/nerfs'.

    As for symbols, this is...no. There's no getting around it. Want to attack the Firebrand? You will end up in a symbol, end of story, unless you're pure ranged with ready access to unblockables that can outlast tome + shield 5 + aeigis (which will definitely be there to absorb hard hits). Scepter has a 6 sec CD on its symbol. Axe, mace have 8 sec (last 4 sec, 50% uptime). Sword has 10 sec, staff has 12 sec.

    Which is fine, generally speaking (the symbol uptime). I don't have much against symbols - I think they're boring and could use some mechanical changes + buffs (shield 2 weeps), but that's another thread. It's the on-demand, low cooldown blind + weakness + cripple that I have beef with - 12 sec w/out trait, 9 sec w/trait. Cripple compounds issues, and the weakness duration is probably too long. It could do with a small nerf or two - some combination of dealing with the cripple, or short cooldown, or weakness duration.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020
    Others

    @Leonidrex.5649

    If I can eat any FB's for break fast as Condition Revenant, does that mean I'm broken too? I don't think so.

    This mentality behind having mandatory skills is what kills the game when the synergy of the team matters more.

    Tell you though, I'll use the same format for my playstyle in a less comedic way tho.

    • I can 1 stack of Weakness (7 Seconds) at /any/ CC. Can spam at high cost.
    • I can give more team oriented Stability (10 seconds) than Firebrands.
    • I can give more team oriented resistance (8 seconds at high cost) + cleanse (3 conditions) and weaponize any of those conditions into an unblockable counter pressure.
    • I can give 50% team oriented power damage reduction in a 600 radius (5 seconds). Can spam at high cost.
    • I can give 5 stacks of unblockable Confusion (3 seconds) on top of removing 3 boons, can spam safely up to 15 stacks but high cost.
    • I can give 10 seconds of slow if I want to.
    • I can have over 85% power damage reduction not counting the possible protection that adds multiplicatively to the existing additive benefits and the glancing blows of Weakness.
    • I can heal for more than Healing Signet with no Healing Power on the offensive and be rewarded for any form of pressure given that the more conditions I have, the more I heal and can punish back.
    • I can stack over 20 Torment by myself safely (In 5 seconds, can be done safely with benefits, part of the main burst.).
    • I can have over 40% condition damage reduction (5 seconds).
    • I can CC Torment/Confusion people through walls/slops on a 900 range.
    • I can shadowstep every 10 seconds with an unblockable slow/chill.
    • I have a 360 radius AoE CC that can reach kitting safe spots.
    • I have a 1200 units CC in a 360 Radius (Also 3 seconds Taunt and Slow).
    • I can have up to 4k barrier on top of all early mentioned benefits.
    • I can Poison up to 4 targets in chain for 18 seconds by just autoattacking.
    • I have AoE projectile denial every 20 seconds.
    • I have 23k HP.. Also Blinds and Heavy Armor!

    Is it broken yet? Or just straw picking. My options are far and wide, but that's nature of exploring outside the boring unfun lackluster meta. You also find really fun challenging things to do. It ups the decision making and therfor skill ceiling.

    @Curennos.9307
    Yeah of course, but I think people are overreacting, all it takes is just one Reaper or Warrior (Any type, core, berserker, spell.) with unblockables under the right plays instead of just pressing buttons because it can be done. Firebrands can't go around without using their tomes if you can avoid their initial attempts, the moment you know what they can and can't do that's when you should at least use them. If you remember the Sic Em unblockable or DE, that kept Firebrands in check, it's still the same except less cheesy, it has to be done with some effort.

    As for symbols, obviously but if you avoided the pull. You're pretty much safe to take opportunities at your pace.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Others

    As I've said before, Firebrands represent what other classes should be. Its not that they're too strong, its that everything else is weak.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Henge of Denravi Silver Invader [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649

    If I can eat any FB's for break fast as Condition Revenant, does that mean I'm broken too? I don't think so.

    This mentality behind having mandatory skills is what kills the game when the synergy of the team matters more.

    Tell you though, I'll use the same format for my playstyle in a less comedic way tho.

    • I can 1 stack of Weakness (7 Seconds) at /any/ CC. Can spam at high cost.
    • I can give more team oriented Stability (10 seconds) than Firebrands.
    • I can give more team oriented resistance (8 seconds at high cost) + cleanse (3 conditions) and weaponize any of those conditions into an unblockable counter pressure.
    • I can give 50% team oriented power damage reduction in a 600 radius (5 seconds). Can spam at high cost.
    • I can give 5 stacks of unblockable Confusion (3 seconds) on top of removing 3 boons, can spam safely up to 15 stacks but high cost.
    • I can give 10 seconds of slow if I want to.
    • I can have over 85% power damage reduction not counting the possible protection that adds multiplicatively to the existing additive benefits and the glancing blows of Weakness.
    • I can heal for more than Healing Signet with no Healing Power on the offensive and be rewarded for any form of pressure given that the more conditions I have, the more I heal and can punish back.
    • I can stack over 20 Torment by myself safely (In 5 seconds, can be done safely with benefits, part of the main burst.).
    • I can have over 40% condition damage reduction (5 seconds).
    • I can CC Torment/Confusion people through walls/slops on a 900 range.
    • I can shadowstep every 10 seconds with an unblockable slow/chill.
    • I have a 360 radius AoE CC that can reach kitting safe spots.
    • I have a 1200 units CC in a 360 Radius (Also 3 seconds Taunt and Slow).
    • I can have up to 4k barrier on top of all early mentioned benefits.
    • I can Poison up to 4 targets in chain for 18 seconds by just autoattacking.
    • I have AoE projectile denial every 20 seconds.
    • I have 23k HP.. Also Blinds and Heavy Armor!

    Is it broken yet? Or just straw picking. My options are far and wide, but that's nature of exploring outside the boring unfun lackluster meta. You also find really fun challenging things to do. It ups the decision making and therfor skill ceiling.

    @Curennos.9307
    Yeah of course, but I think people are overreacting, all it takes is just one Reaper or Warrior (Any type, core, berserker, spell.) with unblockables under the right plays instead of just pressing buttons because it can be done. Firebrands can't go around without using their tomes if you can avoid their initial attempts, the moment you know what they can and can't do that's when you should at least use them. If you remember the Sic Em unblockable or DE, that kept Firebrands in check, it's still the same except less cheesy, it has to be done with some effort.

    As for symbols, obviously but if you avoided the pull. You're pretty much safe to take opportunities at your pace.

    Hence why I'm after some nerfs and some mechanical changes + buffs :)

    That said, care to share your condi rev build? I'm running something very similar, curious to what other folks decided to go with. Sounds like Dwarf/Mallyx, Corruption+Ret...? I'm using Kalla/Mallyx. Kally'x AoE interrupt is nice for spreading weakness.

  • Ghetx.1752Ghetx.1752 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020

    It should be simple as this

    1)You want to do damage?
    -Fine but then you can't tank 5 players whole game without getting below 30% hp in 10 minutes while being able to melt down every single build there is

    2)You want to be a support?
    -You can't kill people within seconds,as simple as that.

    3)You wan't to teleport all over the map and decap nodes?
    -No problem at all,but you can't oneshot people from stealth

    You want to be a bunker?
    -That's fine too,but you should be master at Survivability,not master at doing 900 k dmg in one game.

    Instead of diversity,1000 different amulets and runes gave us nothing but a nightmare.

    Long time ago,people were happy with having certain boons even for a 3-4 seconds every 30-40 seconds

    These days,everyone is running around having 100% boon uptime.

    Just look at the ability called Consume Plasma...

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Shao.7236
    I wonder how many games this necro threw becouse he had signet of undeath instead of corrupt boon for example.
    Why do people pretend that if you strip fb boons they suddenly die,its not true at all.
    as I said before, boon removal hurts classes with less boons more then those with many, becouse they cant insta reapply them, or get the important ones ripped.
    Most of skills that have unblockable DOESNT MATTER against aegis, hit thats unblockable goes throught and then next hit gets blocked so nothing changes.
    Lets not preted that the heals is the only way guard survives.
    they vomit protection
    they vomit aegis
    they vomit weakness
    they vomit blinds
    they have heavy armour
    and they heal ALOT.
    there is nothing enigmatic in FB, they are just broken plain and simple. Broken in pvp, broken in wvw, and broken in pve.

    What magical 5 trait-line 7 utility build is this?

    Symbolbrand's only sources of Protection are Shield #4 (4s duration, 20s cooldown) and the Symbol of Protection on-heal (1s duration, 20s ICD).

    Support-Bunker isn't packing any kind of blind or weakness.

    Personal healing for either is less than the likes of Soulbeast or Holosmith.

    And heavy-armour as being OP..... just..... rofl.

    And while it's true that simply removing boons won't hurt an FB too much, corrupting boons is the biggest counter to FB. The most difficult encounter for FB is core-necro, its basically a guaranteed loss 1v1. Boons are free conditions to the necro, so you're basically permanently crippled, blinded, chilled, feared, and on fire.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    there is a mistconception that boon removal counters FB. It doesnt.
    IT counters classes that dont have much boons like warrior more then vomit classes like FB.
    Immagine devoting entire utility to remove 5 boons and they are swiftness,prot,vigor,aegis and regeneratiob.
    and 2s later all of them are back.
    then you remove 25stacks of might and fury from warrior, and there is actual difference.

    What "actual difference" ? Warrior will be back to 25 might within seconds. Your bias is showing.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 sure, warrior will replace 25stacks within 5s, but that 5s makes difference, unlike fb where there is none unless you remove stab.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Because not every profession has a plethora of unblockables. Rev has the most common access with its phase transversal and considering the potential damage rev can do in 2 hits its why they counter firebrands. Unblockable skills become considerably less common after this with and dont serve as much value against the majority of other professions.

    Banish Enchantment, Nothing Can Save You, Swipe + Bountiful Theft + S/D, Signet of Might, Signet of the Wild. Any of those would easily get rid of a FB in the right opportunity with any sort of pressure following.

    Banish enchantment is also on rev but that build is less viable due to it being a condition build its certainly not as common or effective especially when the boons are reapplied faster than they are ripped.
    Nothing can save you.... simply put necro has no room to fit in its kit due to it lacking other defensive tools you cant afford to take it over other tools that help you sustain better against the wide range of builds that can counter necro. Its also got a very unhealthy cast time that makes it hard to use as a reactionary tool and so you have to use it ahead of time assuming when you think the guardian might block which often can result in it being literally not effective at all. If it was instant cast like warrior signet i would maybe give you this one but still... kinda meh....
    Swipe is fairly high cd and only does one strike some times deals no damage depending on the setup it wont be super effective against guards that can pop multi blocks
    S/D is legit and can work but also very risky I often think that in most cases the sustain of FB outperforms thief sustain by a long shot. Considering S/D never instantly kills anything for the most part unless its already super low it can kill FB but only cause unblockable is in its base kit which seems a bit unjust leaving the counterplay still too niche
    Signet of might really does not fit into warrior options its kind of the same as necro "nothing can save you." while warrior does have a bit more more wiggle room than necro its still not something you can expect them to run. Warriors also have the stability to not get cc chained into firebrand symbols or at least cant quickly get out of them lessening their need for an unblock-able utility like signet of might. Not to mention you have options like spell breaker and full counter which can take full advantage of symbols.
    Signet of the wild much of the same thing there really is just no room for it which is why rangers want their free unblockable back. The do much better against the majority by just taking more stability.

    IF people are forced to take unblockable against Firebrand my question is why is firebrand not forced to take specific things against other roles/ professions that are way out of its meta zone. Or maybe it always does and just has that much in its kit that its well equipped for the vast majority of professions which would make it unbalanced imo.

    I want to back up to the skills you listed one more time before moving on.
    Almost all of these skills you listed (not s/d or banish enchantments) actually have cooldowns that are moderate and some skills like swipe only acting as a one time hit which will not be effective enough to out perform a firebrands sustain. As i said once you go beyond rev the frequency of unblockable play goes down considerably. Not in sense that the skills dont exists just that either the cds are higher than revs or that they simply dont fit into a build because the loss is so considerably greater than the gain.
    What good is having an unblockable utility if you are forced to give up your cc resistance on for example. Sure you can hit through block but now you can be stun chained and what about when you fight things that dont have as frequent access to blocks via skills or boon application.

    Because some professions dont have a ton of stability that last for long durations. The ones that do are also over performing or stand a much fair chance against them. Warriors, Rangers, Weavers, etc.

    Warriors rarely run Stability today, as for the other two I still think Revenant is miles above those two as well as giving it.

    Rev can give stability but usually revs running jails these days are bunker revs and they wont die to firebrand or get pinned down like most other professions do I cant say when the last time was that i saw a jails rev that was not a bunker build.

    Because the best boon hate elite was thrown into the dust with wvw updates back when updates were still tied together. Firebrand can cc combo it to death pretty easily too. Also only 3-4 professions of the entire 9 have the power to rip boons and 2 of them not very commonly. Firebrand also replaces its boons too quickly (uptime is too high)

    Necromancer, Revenant and Thief in order would have an easy time making sure that FB doesn't stay for long.

    Necros are cc'ed to death due to lack of stability in their base kits the little they have is often not enough and FB's can outsustain them. Boons removed are often quickly re-applied.
    Rev counters them because of the few unblockable procs and the insanely high over-performing burst damage.
    Theif only if they are not fighting the thief directly again thief as a +1 is what its best at. ITs not as free for thief against them as some people might think unless its literally the one shot build which in some cases might work but that build is unhealthy for the game overall too and also needs to be removed.

    This is true and valid and it works on core and DH just not Firebrand which is why you dont see symbol complaints with just core and DH (go back to cc chain issue)

    Guardians be Guardians, they are meant to dominate an area, it's in their name. I don't think Symbols should be nerfed at all if they can be free casted from afar.

    I dont think symbols should be nerfed cause they are not the problem on core and DH its just the firebrand line thats over-performing and the firebrands specific tools mantras / tomes. Its more so the fact that firebrand as boon uptime and sustain that should not exsist on an offensive setup. Also the strengths of the tomes is up there.

    Because anet forces you too and its the whole reason why offensive firebrand builds even exists right now.... Offensive power works as a better means of defense than actually investing in defensive stats and in some cases defensive tools (depending on the profession)

    Yes all amulets have Power or Condition to keep a degree of combat potential which is also why Magi doesn't exist anymore, but that in regards all amulets fill a niche that one certain profession could excel, even Knights. The game is really complex yet stupidly narrowed down because "meta".

    I just think anet has pushed kill potential too high in attempts to get out of the HoT meta that was a tanky bunker nightmare and they kept going to the point that investing in defensive stats are irrelevant. Offensive power is worth more as a means o defense than actual defensive power.

    Almost every profession or one of its elites in the game including firebrand

    No what I meant there was that everyone runs something predictable and generic because "meta", I'll have you know that there's this Reaper running in ranked with Signet of the Undeath which has turned a lot of games around by just changing one utility slot, some Guardians have finally realized the strength of Save Yourselves pulling /ALL/ conditions around them in a team fight. There's a lot of things to do outside the box that requires just a slightly harder curve, all it takes is daring.

    To some extent yes but also no.
    People didnt bother considering undeath before the buff to it (although ive ran it in alot of games long before the change i used it a good bit since like 2017 lol it was always solid with reaper ((at lest with SoS)).)
    Going off meta makes you a bit more unpredictable and thats fine and some times it works however, There is a difference in being unpredictable and just having a mechanical advantage that allows something to over-perform.. even more so when its outperforming on roles other than the one it was mainly designed around.

    In case 1 with the reaper.... that only happened because the skill got mechanically better as a passive and active (to some extent cast time etc) it mechanically got better as a tool option to take as a part of necromancers kits being so life force dependent in a game mode where you can often be starved for life force as you wont gain as much like you do in pve and wvw.

    In case 2 with save yourselves this is a good example of just being purely unpredictable and adapting to try new things.

    Overall i hope anet takes the game in a better direction than it is now because right now its literally a hot mess.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As I've said before, Firebrands represent what other classes should be. Its not that they're too strong, its that everything else is weak.

    I would have agreed with you if you had said "core guardian" represents what all classes should be as core guardian is actually very balanced imo. Ive willinly admit to personally thinking core guardian is the most balanced profession in this game.
    Every strength it has in a build also has an equal weakness.

    Firebrand removes a massive chunk of those weaknesses though so i dont agree.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As I've said before, Firebrands represent what other classes should be. Its not that they're too strong, its that everything else is weak.

    I think that I've seen every class that has been deemed busted or overpowered make this claim at some point. I've done it myself perhaps.
    Which is easier? Nerfing one or buffing 8?
    Even if that was the case, The fact that every class has too much access to everything is why the balance patch has 800+ skill splits.
    If you don't have an exploitable weakness that is more approachable than "destroy my 10 horticruxes" then you probably need shaving. It doesn't even need to be big, just a drawback that people can game around.
    We keep coming back here to this argument every time a class becomes rotationally immortal. Like under the surface everyone wants bunker meta again.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    FB does not need nerfs

    Strange arguments flowing within this thread. Some seem to have merit, others, not so much. I'll state it again for those who maybe new in this thread or just need some clarity. Again, as a Guardian main I'll try my best to be as unbiased as I can.

    • As stated above in a previous post, I think daze on axe 2 and immob on 3rd charge of truth is a bit much.

    • I'd like to see people point out what an argument against this next one: Where are all the strong mechanics attached to Guardian? Where's the stealth, instant invuln's on short cd, evade on skills, condition variation compared to that of a necro or condi-mirage, incredible mobility just to name a few? It doesn't exist. This should be HEAVILY taken into account.

    Short, easy-to-read bullet points I hope helps.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Arken.3725 said:
    While I understand the posts above sentiment, condition spread of a fb isn't nearly as insane a most other professions. My issue with that proposed Nerf is that if you do that and all you have again is burning with nothing to keep it ticking (like core and dh) it'll never be useful.

    Then what are we looking for, burn stack reduction? I will disagree that the condi spread is more than it should be, but I don't main guard so I am open to being wrong on that.
    I still think that it does too much to single targets for a support build. Either its boon application should be more support facing(particularly so that it cant cover its mobility weakness with Shining River and most of its non-preservative boon applications, like might, get pushed to allies rather than itself), or the damage it itself can put off should be reduced (in as much as burn stacks and weapon coefficients).

    Slow, but immovable is okay in my book. Slow and Strong also is (as long as it can mitigate some damage too). Fast, Strong and Immovable not so much.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Strange arguments flowing within this thread. Some seem to have merit, others, not so much. I'll state it again for those who maybe new in this thread or just need some clarity. Again, as a Guardian main I'll try my best to be as unbiased as I can.

    • As stated above in a previous post, I think daze on axe 2 and immob on 3rd charge of truth is a bit much.

    • I'd like to see people point out what an argument against this next one: Where are all the strong mechanics attached to Guardian? Where's the stealth, instant invuln's on short cd, evade on skills, condition variation compared to that of a necro or condi-mirage, incredible mobility just to name a few? It doesn't exist. This should be HEAVILY taken into account.

    Short, easy-to-read bullet points I hope helps.

    These things are not the only things needed to be strong, or that can be strong. It feels like some people go 'guardian doesn't have mass evades, stealth, etcetc and therefore can't possibly be OP' but that's...really not the case. Not saying that's what you're saying, but it seems to be alongside the 'strange arguments' you see within the thread.

    Now, if I'm interpreting this correctly...you're right. Guardian isn't mechanically powerful, like the way thief's initiative system interacts with stealth and overall class design to create issues with 1-shot from stealth builds. However, I do think it is numerically overpowered

    The only two mechanics I really have beef with are the design of symbols, and the interaction Renewed Focus has with tomes. Tomes have hefty amounts of power stored in them that goes beyond what the original virtues had, and resetting the cooldown on tomes is much, much stronger than resetting a virtue. Now, is this a power allocation problem and more power should be taken from tomes and pushed into...elsewhere? Or do tomes need to be nerfed? Etcetc, not gonna get too into that.

    Next are symbols - it's like a less annoying version of scourge all over again. I find symbols pretty...uninteractive. Want to fight in melee? Guardian has a vast advantage....which is fine, generally, but they also have extremely powerful projectile denial. How exactly this pans out - is it a lack of availability in unblockables, and other classes have design issues that make acquiring unblockables way too difficult, etcetc - is also for another thread. However, I do like the axe symbol trait that adds daze...that adds interactability to the symbol - it makes it worth dodging the initial cast. Personally, I would rather they give symbols a bit of a redesign - half the initial power, and then attach the other half to people if they get hit, like...turning whoever you hit with the initial hit of the symbol into a moving shade that pulses out your damage. THAT would create far more interaction and counterplay - dodging the first hit of the symbol, vs hitting multiple enemies who then have to coordinate not stacking up and imploding, and so on. This would also allow fine-tuning (how does it scale with multiple opponents, for example) and additional risk/reward (miss the initial hit and you lose benefits versus land the initial hit and get the full benefit + some extra buffs....like mace2 if you hit someone with it, they pulse x benefit to the guardian while in melee range, which creates more range vs melee consideration while still retaining interaction with the enemy...). And for the love of god make mace2 cast faster.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    FB does not need nerfs

    You're right, It's not mechanically powerful, look at the traits and utilities it has. It's burst has been nerfed via Smite Condition from Core Guard to the trap nerfs on DH that make them irrelevant now.

    In terms of the Virtue's, baseline they're such a joke in terms of how weak they are that if you took them away, no one would even notice.

    While I agree with symbols being an incredibly annoying and boring, it doesn't hold a candle to a lot of AoE's in this game. Unlike a lot of skills(mark's, scourge sandshades, Chaos Storm and Elemental Blast to name a few) Symbol's are front-loaded. Hell, the VAST majority of them only do physical damage with no way of keeping you in them outside of maybe Axe's since it has cripple.

    If you have specific questions, lay it on me so I may shine some light upon the confusion.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Others

    @ZDragon.3046
    Well to simplify the meaning of being forced to take something, it can still go both ways if you compensate for it with something else because despite hearing the "meta' constantly, Anet did (or used to) carefully create skills that can achieve an homogeneous result with different benefits, that's the fun of the game which seems often forgotten about. Some skills "do" have too much at once without many drawbacks and that's where I call a nerf, I can't really see that with Firebrand right now. It got gutted so much I don't know what else could be changed, to me the weakness of any Firebrand is clear and that's if they can't get any CC going, they're good as dead because all they can do is be on the defensive and that in the end of itself is something anyone can achieve with some form of short cooldown utility stunbreak and maybe 1 stack of stability if you really want to scare them, Reaper can definitely do that if it needed to 1v1 with the correct traits while having the advantage of unblockables once said Firebrand has nothing to riposte or evade with.

    There's always gonna be a degree of rock-paper-scissor involved in the game, it's unavoidable yes. However I disagree that there's no space for utility, I've seen it time and time again what more people can do by just kitting with the right traits, hell that's what a lot of people do for some "meta" builds to stay relevant, take turns, hit and run. That's how Power Shiro does it, never do they try to hold anything and where the idea of it being a "high skill cap" comes from, but for me that's different, what needs to be achieved with certain should be the defining rule of skills, Shiro is not exactly what I'd call peak of skill when Riposting Shadows has indeed a lot in one slot but it's not tipping off the scale quite yet compared say Warrior ability to dodge so much, however I hope you can see what I mean by too much focus on damage, I've often been judged for playing Reaper the way I did because I wouldn't do enough damage, yet it would still works, just differently because I have more utility in something else, in fact I don't know how most Reapers can't play without Foot in the Grave and Unholy Martyr, those are such great traits for being a Duelist, my guess is that people don't care about that and just want to kill faster.. But it makes you so vulnerable it's stupid.

    There's a lot of things/utility taken for granted where as it was already fine to play without them, people just have become accustomed to it and it's ease of use. No I'm not saying that to pick at straws, we all know how the game is cooldown based and given how really chaotic situations can be and nature of evades can turn around the importance of what was evaded.

    There's all the more reasons why playing FOTM's is bad, but you can't change the mentality of those who only care about winning and not getting good with some degree of difficulty.

    It's probably my Revenant bias, but I can't see what needs to be nerfed on Firebrand now.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    The current top 2 consistent teams right now on eu runs:
    Team 1: 2 SA d/p thieves, mirage, water Weaver and spellbreaker.
    Team 2: water Weaver, fire Weaver, SA d/p thief, rev and support fb.

    So no one is running symbolbrand. Which is the build being complained about. It loses 1v1 to Weaver and mirage, it doesn't have the mobility to stay on rev and thief and it falls over to a +1 unless it's coliseum.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Bear.9568Bear.9568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    You forgot

    -Double Firebrand, Double Firebrand + Weaver

    I personally seen/lost to naru & grim running this in AT

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020
    PvP is not 1 vs 1 silly goose

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    The current top 2 consistent teams right now on eu runs:
    Team 1: 2 SA d/p thieves, mirage, water Weaver and spellbreaker.
    Team 2: water Weaver, fire Weaver, SA d/p thief, rev and support fb.

    So no one is running symbolbrand. Which is the build being complained about. It loses 1v1 to Weaver and mirage, it doesn't have the mobility to stay on rev and thief and it falls over to a +1 unless it's coliseum.

    Stop coming in here with facts, they're not important.

    My feelings say that every team is running 6 FB's minimum, and that each of them can 1v5 any other team comp without even equipping an amulet. Because FB is better at absolutely everything than every other class; that's why nobody ever runs anything else. Weavers? Revs? Thieves? Nope, they don't exist.

    :/

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    https://twitch.tv/videos/541137801?t=03h02m19s

    This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    https://twitch.tv/videos/541137801?t=03h02m19s

    This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

    I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.
    Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

  • FB does not need nerfs

    Bottom line is that there are far more broken specs in the game right now, namely Weaver/Thief and not far from it revenant.

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know about PvP but in PvE and WvW FB is a God class. It does too many things too well without compromise.

  • kialb.2098kialb.2098 Member ✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020
    FB needs some nerfs

    obviously fb need nerf like every class

    only peoples blind think not

    Mantra of truth
    2 axe (not specially this skill but all trait who gives full condi with one kitten skill)
    and general support

    need nerf

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    https://twitch.tv/videos/541137801?t=03h02m19s

    This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

    I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.
    Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

    Not cherry picking anything. Look at the EU mAT.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    https://twitch.tv/videos/541137801?t=03h02m19s

    This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

    I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.
    Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

    Not cherry picking anything. Look at the EU mAT.

    I did.
    1 trick thief on thief
    1 trick mesmer on mesmer
    1 trick warrior on warrior

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    FB needs some nerfs

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

    -Double Firebrand, Double Scourge
    -Double Firebrand, Double Mirage
    -Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith
    -Double Firebrand, Double Herald

    Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

    And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

    Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

    along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.
    there is also difference between what people play and what is best.
    rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

    https://twitch.tv/videos/541137801?t=03h02m19s

    This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

    I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.
    Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

    Not cherry picking anything. Look at the EU mAT.

    I did.
    1 trick thief on thief
    1 trick mesmer on mesmer
    1 trick warrior on warrior

    No idea what's that supposed to mean, but sure.

    Symbolbrand is very un-healthy mechanically. I wan't it (mostly Echo of Truth) toned down. I wish symbols got reworked too, but we know that won't happen.

    But saying that symbolbrand and support FB (LUL) is overpowered in the current meta is literally just lying to yourself, and to everyone else.

    ~ God Tier Guardian