How to close the knowledge gap for new players? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to close the knowledge gap for new players?

Across all modes what can we/anet do to close the knowledge gap for new players? As a primarily PvP/WvW player I know this is a problem and if you don't have a patient player to help you and show you the ropes it can be specially frustrating to get involved. It takes a certain level of determination and stubbornness to learn it on your own which not everyone has. Is there a way we can help motivate veteran players to help new players with this content? I know open world PvE is kind of hand holdy but when you jump up to end game with fractals/raids the leap can seam daunting. There are things like raid training guilds but that seems to be about it. There are a good handful of us who do enjoy helping others but are there enough? Idk, I hear people complain about "people being useless" but not suggesting ways to help them not be. I'm not saying this some pandemic level issue but it's enough for me to have noticed commonly.

Depression and anxiety are the worst...

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Comments

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When the warclaw got introduced, and even a bit before I found a lot of help from coms that were on the map leading wvw squads in both borderlands as edge of the mists. So I guess the way to go would be the coms. Content creators could also explain how everything works but in my experience you learn it better if you can immediatly apply what you just learnt. Also since you can then ask questions on spot.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This game needs a way better tutorial and explanations on how things work(combos, blast finishers, dodging, Breakbars omg please breakbars.) The minor mechanics are explained but the major ones for team play, and survival in the harder content are forgotten about.

    Add to that, they -need- to slowly make the game harder, and i do mean slow, but to accomplish this a re balance would be needed across the board. Starting with the level 1-15 zones and going all the way up to Bjora marches(each LS season and expansion would increase the difficulty, this would carry over to story too), with Bjora being the new difficulty cap for open world PVE. All new zones after that would be on the same or a small increase in difficulty. You still wouldnt need another person to play through the game, if you know what are you doing that is, so the "solo everything" crowd can still do that if they are good.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
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    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Much of the game is packed with lessons, for example, the hated mini games and adventures are lessons in flying, dodging, using mounts, etc. Many mmo's players do not want lessons, they want to skip all that and get to the good stuff. They often do not catch on that learning these systems is the good stuff.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The first thing you need is people who actually want to learn and improve ...

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If someone wants to get better then he will look for help and there are way more then enough sources.

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    Weren't we all 'new players' and learned? Well, learned as much as we are going to?
    Should 'new players' be fast-tracked now? Why isn't the suggestion that everyone that hasn't 'learned' be taught, rather than 'new players'?

    Also, to me, Bjora seems a lot easier than some of HoT and PoF. If Bjora is the cap, then many areas would need to be toned down, and I'm not sure there is enough gap between Starter areas and Bjora to slowly increment difficulty through all the many maps of Core, Expansions and all the Living World Seasons maps.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    This game needs a way better tutorial and explanations on how things work(combos, blast finishers, dodging, Breakbars omg please breakbars.) The minor mechanics are explained but the major ones for team play, and survival in the harder content are forgotten about.

    Add to that, they -need- to slowly make the game harder, and i do mean slow, but to accomplish this a re balance would be needed across the board. Starting with the level 1-15 zones and going all the way up to Bjora marches(each LS season and expansion would increase the difficulty, this would carry over to story too), with Bjora being the new difficulty cap for open world PVE. All new zones after that would be on the same or a small increase in difficulty. You still wouldnt need another person to play through the game, if you know what are you doing that is, so the "solo everything" crowd can still do that if they are good.

    It would not work becouse you will have new players that go core, maybe hot and then pof then newest living story the difficulty spike would be to hard for them.
    Hence why we got what we have now with easy peasy icebrood saga so far.

  • AgentMoore.9453AgentMoore.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    The first thing I do for new players is introduce them to the /wiki command. Following that, I tell them about this forum for technical questions and about the various roleplay networks if that's their preference. The idea is to give them the tools to go it alone as well as the addresses for getting in touch with people who can help.

    Even joining the game right now, you'd eventually wander into the same level of experience that vets have, given time. Some achievements and events are harder to complete now, and LFG is more required than ever, but the basic mechanics of the game can still be casually learned without any special systems put in place.

    People aren't thrilled with the direction of the game right now, but the helpful parts of the community are still interested in helping.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    They could have a simulator that duplicates various attacks and mechanics that people could practice.

    The other thing is to not reward leeching, so that players will have to actually do something. Currently you can do nothing and still get rewarded. As a result, it is up to veteran players to educate players that want to be learn and be useful but exclude those that do not.

    For example, you might think you are being nice when you res someone fully dead 5 in. away from spawn or a waypoint, but in reality you're just making them lazy and they'll just lay fully dead during events. Therefore, you do not res fully dead players if a wp is nearby-- make them respawn and they'll get the hint. Some people may think this is toxic, but I think holding another entire map back because of laziness is even more so.

    If someone tries to join a fractal with insufficient agony resist, then educate them on why, give them in resources on how to get it, or even help them do low level runs. Do not, however, try to carry them. There are those that just want to play dumb and leech-- kick these people.

    Don't give new players gold. Show them how to make gold. Something something give fish vs teach fishing.

    Don't confuse poorly performing players for new players or just casual players that need a nudge in the right directions. But only help those people that want help.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO, there has to be some investment by the new player in learning the mechanics of the game and their class. Too often I have seen players who insta-level to 80 and then don't know how to play their character. The impatience to get to what some consider end-game material is greatly at fault.

    My personal experience in WvW has been mostly negative with not being able to join with a coordinated group and then getting ganked as a roamer. This could be due to the times I'm online, so others mileage may vary. Still, it was enough to keep me from entering that content.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You can't. The only way you could close the gap in effectiveness between top and bottom players would be not through teaching players, but through completely changing the game mechanics.

    Basically, the game is way too complex - complex enough that any attempt to educate a majority of the players will be ultimately futile. The only people that would learn enough would be the people willing to learn - and those people are already learning all they can anyway. You can't really make players learn more than they already have, so all you could possibly do is to make it so they'd need to learn less to accomplish the same result (basically, you'd need to simplify the game).

    And that's not going to happen.

    This.

    Before thinking about what can or can't be done, one must realize:
    For an individual to improve, they have to actively desire to do so.

    At this point in time, there is vast amounts of resources both in-game, as well as outside the game which provide guidance for players who want to improve. Those resources see use by players who desire to achieve certain results, those who do not, make no use of them. The second group of players will also not make use of any in-game features, which are already present, even if those are shoved in their face. On the contrary, most take the path of least resistance and simply complain (and in part they are right, since much of the content has been brain dead easy for ages).

    The only thing you can do is incentivize players to try content outside their comfort zone in the hope that they develop a desire to improve for those game types/modes. I believe that is what strikes are for. Unfortunately this will automatically result in some few players improving, but a vast majority hitting their personal skill cap (rather fast I might add). Best evidence: the outcries about difficulty in nearly any open world or story content, even though there is tons of guide material and tons of cheese ways to overcome said challenges with minimal effort (if so desired).

    The simple fact is: the difference between players who actually understand this games mechanics and who engage in buildcrafting and understanding their class versus those who do not is simply to big and the later group has no desire to improve.

  • Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From a wvw perspective the worst thing we do as a community is tell new players to follow a tag. This 'teaches' them not to learn, and to instead rely on others for their success. No one tagged up? Can't play, may as well log off . . .

    Far better advice would be to tell ppl to roam their own bl until they get the hang of things and -- this next bit is crucial -- that dying is a natural and vital part of the game mode. Once players have learned the ropes running solo and that dying is nbd, then they could contribute more meaningfully to squad play, which should presume an understanding of basic wvw concepts . . .

  • I'm terrible in WvW and I know that but then again I'm forced to do it from time to time to get Gifts of Battle. Because of this, I chose to be a Longbow Ranger and, obviously, I need to be in a group to succeed sometimes and it's painful to me hear on Discord servers extremely stressed commanders speaking super fast and once in a while sighing an "omg... this Ranger".

    But, as I said, it's an aspect of the game I'm forced to do, so I'll abide, however, I believe the most basic way to help newcomers is teaching, in-game, about Defiance Bar and CC. A LOT of players have in mind CC only as "crowd control" which is not exactly what it means in GW2. A lot more don't even know what are their CC skills. Heck, we have an in-game tutorial to learn how to dodge which, even accidentally everyone already did. But nothing regarding CC.

    Keriayn‌‌ | Asura | Necromancer
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    Astrid Bloodbourne | Norn | Guardian
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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The major prerequisite for any kind of learning is the desire to learn, you cannot teach those that do not want to be taught.

    That said and since you are asking how to close the gap, not eliminate it, good/proper tutorials could help. For example a way to teach new players breakbars has been asked for since they were added to the game. The UI needs to be more informative on that subject too, it's really puzzling when you need to open the wiki to find the information you need, instead of being available in the game.

    The game already tries to teach you things as you need them, like the Mounts. The area around the skimmer mount is full of quicksand and completing the task itself is much faster/easier with one. The area around the springer is the same. Heck, you MUST use the raptor to finish the very first instance and there is a handy tutorial build-in to teach you how to move with the raptor. You must learn how to properly glide at various points in the Heart of Thorns story (even more if you want map completion)

    The game isn't bad at teaching players new gimmicks that will be required in the story, or for map completion. But it's rather bad at teaching the basics, not much can be done about that though.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the whole problem with conveying information that is useful to the player on how to deal with certain mechanics and content begins and ends with the UI. And that department is severely lacking.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    This game needs a way better tutorial and explanations on how things work

    :+1: This. It can't be said often enough.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    The usual way it is done now is to put the tutorial in the story missions, but when they made the "New player experience" they kind of butchered it and made it worse.
    The time that it came out hand holding was not that popular in games you learned cause you had to learn it to be effective, but with time it turned into care bare place where it is made way too easy on places and at the same time there is no initial explanation how things work.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For me, the leveling experience was educational enough. You learn all the basics. I think the combat in GW2 requires you to learn to use your skills effectively, since you have to evade damage and heal. More than most MMOs that I have seen. PvP is a different beast. Especially that GW2 does not have a lowbie PvP.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not quite sure if there's anything they can do really, if anything I'd just say that people should just strive more to help new players and to be patient with them.

    Before I had my extended leave from the game I know people in general were rather hostile to most of what conflicted with the norm in wvw, so there was never really much of anything to help new players unless the player in question.

    Now I'm not sure if anything has changed since I've been gone because really how in the world could I know, but if it's at all the same I'd say it's mainly just an issue of player mentality with the older crowd for that game mode at the very least.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xenash.1245 said:
    I'm not quite sure if there's anything they can do really, if anything I'd just say that people should just strive more to help new players and to be patient with them.

    Before I had my extended leave from the game I know people in general were rather hostile to most of what conflicted with the norm in wvw, so there was never really much of anything to help new players unless the player in question.

    Now I'm not sure if anything has changed since I've been gone because really how in the world could I know, but if it's at all the same I'd say it's mainly just an issue of player mentality with the older crowd for that game mode at the very least.

    There are also people who are hostile to slightest hint of a suggestion that what they are doing isn't correct.

    On the other hand there are also too many people giving unwanted advice. Someone who is not in a group with you and simply walking from spawn to the bank is not an invitation for you to start critiquing their choice of utilities ...

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We do not have any real tutorials in the game. There is the content guide and a few minor explanations. But introducing new players into the game, helping them to get started and find their own path has to be done by the community. There are plenty of players, who are always willing to share their knowledge & experience. Players who tag up in newbie-zones to aid newbies in their first steps, although they have probably enough experience to lead squads in coordinated meta-events. I really respect those players. There are also guilds which dedicate themselves to help newbies and introduce them to the game. Plenty of veterans who work as mentors to individually advice uncertain newbies to reach their goals.

    But we also have a couple of black sheep in the game. If a question is asked, they respond with "use the /wiki command." If new players seek guidance about classes/skills/weapons/builds, they instantly link www.metabattle.com. With the advice, that everything they need to know is on that page. No clue what that means they type in the link into their browser. They pick their class, sometimes even the correct game mode and start farming endgame-gear with a character far below 80 and the knowledge of a three week starter. Some of them quit already, due to the overwhelming flood of information. Some quit later, as they realize the acquisition of endgame-gear is just too complex to process that early in the game.

    I do not want to flag those resources in a bad way. They are all useful and help understanding the complex world of GW2. But it can be rather overwhelming, especially in the early stage of a new player. It is often more helpful to explain things directly, although it is basic knowledge. It is often more helpful to give a direct advise from player to player, than reading some guides/builds on a page that suggests the meta. The meta is the final step in some cases, but should not be the first.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One simple solution is to tell them. If someone asks a question or clearly doesn't understand something let them know what they're missing - nicely, it'll be much better recieved that way. If it's a simple answer you could just type it out, if it's more complicated send them to the Wiki.

    A lot of the time they might not even know there's something they don't know. Defiance bars and CC for example, I once saw someone ask what the bar was for and the first reply they got was that it's just a random mechanic, sometimes it goes orange and the boss stops moving, sometimes it doesn't but you can just ignore it. The person saying that genuinely thought they were being helpful because that's how it had always appeared to work to them, they were very surprised to learn that grey "junk" conditions on the boss were what made the bar go down.

    Other times it might just be that they're afraid to ask because of the reaction they might get if they out themselves as an 'idiot noob'. The first time I asked why we'd sometimes attack doors in WvW and sometimes stand and let the siege do it I waited until I was ready to stop for the night in case I got kicked from the squad or ridiculed until I decided to leave. But I got lucky and actually got a few helpful, informative answers. (If anyone's wondering it's because siege doesn't trigger the orange swords that let the enemy know the location is under attack - sometimes you want to keep it secret, and sometimes the scouts have told the commander it doesn't matter so there's no reason to hold back damage and delay getting in.)

    No it's not a universal fix, it still requires you to encounter people who don't know what they're doing, and then to take some time to try and sort it out. But it's something anyone can do, to address any misunderstanding while waiting for Anet to come up with another solution.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "Not dead which eternal lie, stranger eons death may die. Drain you of your sanity, face the thing that should not be"

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would be nice for us to live in a world where this was even on Anet's table.
    But it isn't.
    Those that want to learn to do. They ask questions, read the wiki, watch videos and generally improve.

    Others post on the forums about:
    1. How they just want to chill and relax after a hard day of work and how the "game shouldn't be a job"
    2. How they are entitled to "Play how they want" because they devs said so
    3. How they shouldn't have to be a "meta-slave" just to get over in open world PvE

    This game does zero to ask players to improve. It develops S3.2 with massive incentives to learn to break a defiance bar and then lets players completely skip past it if they never want to do the content. It craps out the biggest rewards for the lowest skill activities and generally protects a player from being aware of their low skill cap.

    And now it's time to face the reality.
    Anet has been making this game progressively easier to satisfy these players.
    The last two releases (the prologue and ep1) have offered laughable OW challenge, gutted any form of difficulty from story missions, and replaced raids and fractals with Strike missions so easy you can get every relevant achievement on the first pull with a group of pugs.
    The company has made it's choice.
    While almost every other game I have ever played gets harder as you progress, Anet has chosen the reverse. It's not going to make the game harder. It's not going to incentivize players to improve. It's going settle in delivering content to the lowest common denominator.

    We've given our feedback and Anet has moved in the opposite direction. Time will tell is chasing the easy money was the right choice.

    But those of us arguing for incenting those not up the the challenge to improve?
    We're just tilting at windmills and it's time to realize we are no longer the target market of Gw2.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:
    For me, the leveling experience was educational enough. You learn all the basics. I think the combat in GW2 requires you to learn to use your skills effectively, since you have to evade damage and heal. More than most MMOs that I have seen. PvP is a different beast. Especially that GW2 does not have a lowbie PvP.

    Go to the raid golem (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special_Forces_Training_Area). Do a basic rotation and see where your dps lands. Make sure to set it up correctly with boons (give yourself all boons, warrior strength+discipline banner and empowered allies, ranger spotter, sun spirit and frost spirit) and conditions (just give the golem all conditions, most important 25 vulnerability) for yourself and it. That's truly the only way to make sure your assumption is correct.

    I guarantee you, your leveling basics are worth squat unless you actually went out of your way to hone them in challenging group content or with outside help. Usual benchmarks are around 30k dps minimum on nearly all classes btw, if you can hit 25k you are better than most PUG raid players. Leveling in this game does NOT prepare players to perform in any way decent. That's one of the problems which unfortunately is to late to tackle now.

  • I seriously doubt there is that much of new players these days, and that it's worth of investment to build a brand new tutorial when wiki does a good job explaining it all already, and there are tons of tutorial videos on youtube. Anet struggles to push interesting content on time as of now, nothing big is planed (like expansions) for any near future, game engine is old, visuals are pretty mediocre by today's standard - etc etc etc I seriously doubt that tutorial is THE solution to fix things up, in that state ))

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People who want to learn actually do some small effort because they are interested in it. They go to the forums, know about the wiki, maybe look up some builds or watch some vids about the content they are interested in. But GW2 has become a game of participation rewards, instant gratification or pure RNG luck. So players who are not interested in "getting better" will never be forced to because everything is just as obtainable to them as it is to others. And if it isn't they cry and whine and complain until ANet changes the game and makes it even easier. Lazy ppl will stay lazy and the game enables the behavior. It has been proven that you can have your ranger pet beat the game for you and when the bar is that low you basically invite low effort players to your game who spread the "gimmegimme nownownow" attitude.

    How to improve this? Well, I think at this point ANet can't make the game apeal to different players so we basically have to deal with what we have. What I do is, rather than tell ppl what they ask for I show them the easy things like the /wiki-command or point them to a website that has decent builds or guides. Instead of carrying players through content I try to teach them how encounters work. And you know what, I still get yelled at in mapchat whenever I tell ppl about /wiki et when chat fills up with "meta when plox?" questions.

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    I know open world PvE is kind of hand holdy

    Except it really isn't. Sure, there's a "content guide", which helps lead you around by the nose, but there is nothing to really impart important combat mechanics. The little blurbs spaced throughout the leveling process are just momentary words. They don't show players what effects come from what fields. They don't show players how to use CC (and good grief, do we need to teach that), and there's maybe one little dodge tutorial that doesn't apply it in active play.
    Dodge, the more important damage mitigation tactic available to every player, is left at a dodgeroll-to-this-chest 'tutorial'.

    Compare to XIV and The Smith that opens right around the time players start getting to dungeons, and it has a series of tasks for the role of each class. And the rewards for doing it are pretty worthy.
    Similarly, GW2 needs something like that. Let it be a game area without a need to squish it into lore. Or, heck, if you desperately need lore, there's always Moto. But GW2 needs a full, proper tutorial.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Pirogen.9561Pirogen.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    Even if you want to learn, GW2 refuses to cooperate. Reasons:

    • so much GFX bling I can't see kitten
    • even if I am really solo(so less GFX bling), I have no bloody idea what monsters is doing and when
    • you can pick 1st utility skill at 11, 1st specialization at 21 ... why? Really, why?
    • Oh, and 3rd spec tree is at lvl 71. So for most of leveling I am not allowed to learn how to make a build.
  • Ol Nik.2518Ol Nik.2518 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaralyna.3104 said:
    When the warclaw got introduced, and even a bit before I found a lot of help from coms that were on the map leading wvw squads in both borderlands as edge of the mists. So I guess the way to go would be the coms. Content creators could also explain how everything works but in my experience you learn it better if you can immediatly apply what you just learnt. Also since you can then ask questions on spot.

    I think I saw some WvW comms complaining about the excess of PvE players due to the new mount. Their main solution was to teach PvE players the basics, help them finish with the warclaw, and bid them farewell ;)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have felt things are porposely done this way for quite a while, and especially after most of the basic mechanics were removed from all of the low level areas. They most likely assume anyone willing to to learn and improve will be able to do so by themselves with all of the sources avaible outside of the game and by talking to people in the game. This allows them to keep any actual gameplay complexity far away from all of those who might be discouraged by it. A constant wave of tutorials and guides would make them feel like they can't just "pick up and play how they want". As much as some of us enjoy the combat system with all of it's nuances, others couldn't care less about that part of the game.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I think I saw some WvW comms complaining about the excess of PvE players due to the new mount. Their main solution was to teach PvE players the basics, help them finish with the warclaw, and bid them farewell ;)

    I still don't have mine and now after all of this time, I'm rather timid about going into WvW and asking for help obtaining it at this late date. =/

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    l like this is similar to that time players on the forum kept saying they didn't want to look like a walking light show but Anet forced it on them, so Anet made a weapon set with no glow or particle effects and then players complained until they made them glow. They did make the game harder, repeatedly. At release Orr was much harder than other zones, but players complained that they couldn't run past everything so Anet fixed it. They made HoT significantly harder than base game zones and players complained they couldn't do it all solo so they made it easier. They made raids because players kept on about wanting them and then only a tiny minority played them and refused to let anyone else join their groups unless they could prove they'd already done it 50 times.

    You can't expect a company to listen to players feedback and give them what they want and ignore players saying what they don't want.

    I'm not saying that at all.
    I'm saying that over the past year. Anet has full on switched course and started making the game progressively easier instead harder.
    I'm saying the feedback of "I just want a chill press 1 experience" and abandonment/completion data is of greater value to Anet than creating a compelling experience now.

    And I am saying that everyone asking for Arenanet to tutorialize breakbars forgets that Ember Bay exists....but that the content is easily skipped. Threads like this that ask for Anet to tutorialize the experience better are a waste of time because Arenanet isn't going to raise the average player's awareness and skill, it's instead going to deliver content at the average player's level.

    I'm not saying it's the wrong choice.
    It's just reality that when Anet tells us only 65% of premade squads successful complete the Fraenir strike mission, it doesn't mean they are going to try and tutorialize the game better to bring that number up.
    They are just going to make the next strike easier to "satisfy customers" rather than "entertain and engage players".

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I think I saw some WvW comms complaining about the excess of PvE players due to the new mount. Their main solution was to teach PvE players the basics, help them finish with the warclaw, and bid them farewell ;)

    I still don't have mine and now after all of this time, I'm rather timid about going into WvW and asking for help obtaining it at this late date. =/

    Don't worry. From my experience ppl are willing to help you get started, find stuff and so on. Just don't expect a zerg of 30 ppl to take that fortress/tower NOWNOWNOWNOWNWONWONWONWONOW just because you need it for the collection and all will be fine. Best case, ppl are willing to help in hope of getting a new teammate for abandoned content; worst case, as Nik stated, ppl will help you just to get you out of "their" game mode asap.

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • @Pirogen.9561 said:
    Even if you want to learn, GW2 refuses to cooperate. Reasons:

    • so much GFX bling I can't see kitten
    • even if I am really solo(so less GFX bling), I have no bloody idea what monsters is doing and when
    • you can pick 1st utility skill at 11, 1st specialization at 21 ... why? Really, why?
    • Oh, and 3rd spec tree is at lvl 71. So for most of leveling I am not allowed to learn how to make a build.

    What do u mean by" so much GFX bling I can't see kitten" ?

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020

    @t sakacs.7568 said:

    @Pirogen.9561 said:
    Even if you want to learn, GW2 refuses to cooperate. Reasons:

    • so much GFX bling I can't see kitten
    • even if I am really solo(so less GFX bling), I have no bloody idea what monsters is doing and when
    • you can pick 1st utility skill at 11, 1st specialization at 21 ... why? Really, why?
    • Oh, and 3rd spec tree is at lvl 71. So for most of leveling I am not allowed to learn how to make a build.

    What do u mean by" so much GFX bling I can't see kitten" ?

    Assuming he means visual clutter from effects, flashes and beams caused by skills or the environment.

    As the discusion about the aureate weapons has shown it is impossible to please everyone. Each opinion, each end of every spectrum has it's vocal minority these days.

    • Game has down to earth graphics - "I want to be a shiny pink unidragon with a constant lightshow around me to rival a rave, where's my fantasy stuffz?!?!?!?!?"
    • Game has flashy effects with glitter and all - "All these effects really destroy my immersion. I want some down to earth graphics that seem at least somewhat realistic. 0/10"

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • kratan.4619kratan.4619 Member ✭✭✭

    Playing and asking people questions is how you learn. Other than assisting when someone asks for knowledge there is nothing to do. I never did ask many questions in WvW when I started, mostly I just figured out what to do by either watching others or looking it up for myself, I did not require some kind of formal training to figure out what to do in WvW.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2020

    @Rauderi.8706 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    I know open world PvE is kind of hand holdy

    Except it really isn't. Sure, there's a "content guide", which helps lead you around by the nose, but there is nothing to really impart important combat mechanics. The little blurbs spaced throughout the leveling process are just momentary words. They don't show players what effects come from what fields. They don't show players how to use CC (and good grief, do we need to teach that), and there's maybe one little dodge tutorial that doesn't apply it in active play.
    Dodge, the more important damage mitigation tactic available to every player, is left at a dodgeroll-to-this-chest 'tutorial'.

    Suffice to say that I started to play the game as Elementalist (one of the weakest and "glassiest" profession out there), and even without understanding a thing about how gear system works (I was wearing some crappy gear I was finding in events and buying from basic vendors, without paying much attention to its stats) and what are meta-builds I still was efficient enough to advance through openworld. I believe I really started to look into these things about time I got to lv80 and landed to PoF map (skipping HoT). After I switched to berserk exotic gear and adapted some meta-build to my style of playing, and leveled my Weaver to max, even PoF maps became an easy boring mess for me in a few months, as there was little challenge there, except for a few elite local mini-bosses and bounties.

    In short, I'm not exactly sure this game needs to tend casuals even more, by explaining them every bit of the mechanics forcibly right in the game )) You may happen to rob even them of any joy in this game, in the end ;)

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @t sakacs.7568 said:

    @Pirogen.9561 said:
    Even if you want to learn, GW2 refuses to cooperate. Reasons:

    • so much GFX bling I can't see kitten
    • even if I am really solo(so less GFX bling), I have no bloody idea what monsters is doing and when
    • you can pick 1st utility skill at 11, 1st specialization at 21 ... why? Really, why?
    • Oh, and 3rd spec tree is at lvl 71. So for most of leveling I am not allowed to learn how to make a build.

    What do u mean by" so much GFX bling I can't see kitten" ?

    Assuming he means visual clutter from effects, flashes and beams caused by skills or the environment.

    As the discusion about the aureate weapons has shown it is impossible to please everyone. Each opinion, each end of every spectrum has it's vocal minority these days.

    • Game has down to earth graphics - "I want to be a shiny pink unidragon with a constant lightshow around me to rival a rave, where's my fantasy stuffz?!?!?!?!?"
    • Game has flashy effects with glitter and all - "All these effects really destroy my immersion. I want some down to earth graphics that seem at least somewhat realistic. 0/10"

    The UI is minimal, the devs wanted people to read mobs animations in order to know when to dodge, block, cc, etc. The graphic overload contradicts this design, its pretty frustrating.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2020

    @Hashberry.4510 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @t sakacs.7568 said:

    @Pirogen.9561 said:
    Even if you want to learn, GW2 refuses to cooperate. Reasons:

    • so much GFX bling I can't see kitten
    • even if I am really solo(so less GFX bling), I have no bloody idea what monsters is doing and when
    • you can pick 1st utility skill at 11, 1st specialization at 21 ... why? Really, why?
    • Oh, and 3rd spec tree is at lvl 71. So for most of leveling I am not allowed to learn how to make a build.

    What do u mean by" so much GFX bling I can't see kitten" ?

    Assuming he means visual clutter from effects, flashes and beams caused by skills or the environment.

    As the discusion about the aureate weapons has shown it is impossible to please everyone. Each opinion, each end of every spectrum has it's vocal minority these days.

    • Game has down to earth graphics - "I want to be a shiny pink unidragon with a constant lightshow around me to rival a rave, where's my fantasy stuffz?!?!?!?!?"
    • Game has flashy effects with glitter and all - "All these effects really destroy my immersion. I want some down to earth graphics that seem at least somewhat realistic. 0/10"

    The UI is minimal, the devs wanted people to read mobs animations in order to know when to dodge, block, cc, etc. The graphic overload contradicts this design, its pretty frustrating.

    Lots of visual noise/clutter, the “read what’s in the screen” was a manifesto thing that died during the 1st year of gw2.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Hashberry.4510 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @t sakacs.7568 said:

    @Pirogen.9561 said:
    Even if you want to learn, GW2 refuses to cooperate. Reasons:

    • so much GFX bling I can't see kitten
    • even if I am really solo(so less GFX bling), I have no bloody idea what monsters is doing and when
    • you can pick 1st utility skill at 11, 1st specialization at 21 ... why? Really, why?
    • Oh, and 3rd spec tree is at lvl 71. So for most of leveling I am not allowed to learn how to make a build.

    What do u mean by" so much GFX bling I can't see kitten" ?

    Assuming he means visual clutter from effects, flashes and beams caused by skills or the environment.

    As the discusion about the aureate weapons has shown it is impossible to please everyone. Each opinion, each end of every spectrum has it's vocal minority these days.

    • Game has down to earth graphics - "I want to be a shiny pink unidragon with a constant lightshow around me to rival a rave, where's my fantasy stuffz?!?!?!?!?"
    • Game has flashy effects with glitter and all - "All these effects really destroy my immersion. I want some down to earth graphics that seem at least somewhat realistic. 0/10"

    The UI is minimal, the devs wanted people to read mobs animations in order to know when to dodge, block, cc, etc. The graphic overload contradicts this design, its pretty frustrating.

    Lots of visual noise/clutter, the “read what’s in the screen” was a manifesto thing that died during the 1st year of gw2.

    Yep. C'est la guerre.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    If you're not helping solve the problem, you're part of the problem. So I sometimes go into the newbie maps, drop some food or banners, and put up a tag to offer tips and help.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You can't. The only way you could close the gap in effectiveness between top and bottom players would be not through teaching players, but through completely changing the game mechanics.

    Basically, the game is way too complex - complex enough that any attempt to educate a majority of the players will be ultimately futile. The only people that would learn enough would be the people willing to learn - and those people are already learning all they can anyway. You can't really make players learn more than they already have, so all you could possibly do is to make it so they'd need to learn less to accomplish the same result (basically, you'd need to simplify the game).

    And that's not going to happen.

    I kinda disagree, an extensive tutorial can always prove useful and bring the gap down sagnificantly.

  • Odinens.5920Odinens.5920 Member ✭✭✭

    LOL, knowledge gap in in GW2 consists of learning how to dodge and weapon swap effectively.

    You want an actual knowledge gap go to EVE online.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    @Odinens.5920 said:
    LOL, knowledge gap in in GW2 consists of learning how to dodge and weapon swap effectively.

    ...and it's exactly because a lot of people think so, that we have such massive knowledge gap

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You can't. The only way you could close the gap in effectiveness between top and bottom players would be not through teaching players, but through completely changing the game mechanics.

    Basically, the game is way too complex - complex enough that any attempt to educate a majority of the players will be ultimately futile. The only people that would learn enough would be the people willing to learn - and those people are already learning all they can anyway. You can't really make players learn more than they already have, so all you could possibly do is to make it so they'd need to learn less to accomplish the same result (basically, you'd need to simplify the game).

    And that's not going to happen.

    I kinda disagree, an extensive tutorial can always prove useful and bring the gap down sagnificantly.

    Yes, it would help a bit, and could shorten the gap. So, instead of, say 10x damage difference between the average player and a top one, you'd have 5x difference.

    That's it. Anything more requires learing things that cannot really be supplied by the game (because the game cannot teach you specific builds and rotations, nor it can teach you actually executing those rotations if you have trouble with them) and must be learned outside of it.

    Notice, by the way, how Anet had a chance of at least doing something in that department with build templates, but completely blew that by trying to heavily monetize those. An easy (and free) to use template system could have done wonders for at least spreading the knowledge of proper builds among those that do not go out of the game to look for that kind of information. Still nothing to be done about rotations and learning execution of those, but at least it would have been something. Instead, Anet went out of their way to insure that nothing of that sort will ever happen.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To all those who outright dismissed the idea of a better tutorial because "players dont want to learn." You are part of the problem.

    This game is terrible at explaining things to those who want to get -better- at the game. Some things are straight forward, but others are not, i spent the first two years running around in soldiers armor because hurr durr toughness lets you stay alive and do more, right? f you ask in game You either get told to go look up a meta build which does -nothing- in teaching one how to play, or outright ignored. None of these players who have issues with the difficulty are going to get better unless that knoweldge is forced into their brain.

    when one gets to level 80, make them do a one time mandatory, in depth tutorial on how the least explained mechanics work, what the different stats mean, how they work, what CC is in this game(its not explained, and ive seen alot of people confused when they come from other games.), how break bars work, how ley abilities work, etc.

    @Astralporing.1957

    5x more damage difference is way better than 10x damage difference, think about how much easier alot of those metas would be that suffer from a lack of dps.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, it would help a bit, and could shorten the gap. So, instead of, say 10x damage difference between the average player and a top one, you'd have 5x difference.

    That comment from the developers about the 10x damage needs some proper context. Even if you auto-attack only, you won't do one tenth of the damage that a player following a "proper" rotation does. I believe they compared the damage a "meta" player does in a group setting, with ALL the buffs available, with an "average" person on their own. In that case, even a pro player will deal less than half the damage, so it's a rather moot point. Yes, an average player will deal much less damage than a top tier player, but comparing damage completely out of context is just bad.

    Edit: a top tier player WITH buffs does about x3 more damage than a top tier player WITHOUT any buffs (easily tested on the training golem). Making a phrase like "top tier players are doing 10x damage than the average player" be a rather pointless metric only used for a request to dumb-ify the game even further.

    Also, Guild Wars 2 is by no means a "complex" game, it just loves rewarding players for not playing the game, more than those that are actively playing it, leading to a playerbase that doesn't want (nor need) to get any better. Teaching players the bare minimum, the basics, can bridge the gap, and if a difference of x10 becomes a x5 then that's a HUGE win for the game as a whole.

    Do notice how much the game teaches you new gimmicks, spending quite a bit of time/effort teaching you how to play with the various mounts or gliding. How other mastery abilities are required to progress the plot, like the latest Raven Mastery and so on. And there is -still- no tutorial available for Breakbars and crowd control...