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Herald still broken 5 years later


Ovark.2514

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Probably got buried under the all the Rev White Knights defending every broken shit and whining their asses off when it got pushed of of Ranked Meta by Macebow Berserker for a few months. I mean, even the patch that completely overtuned Impossible Odds and put a free 3k dmg + boon removal on Shiro F2 was sold as nerf here in the forum by some clowns. And even now there are still Rev mains shouting for more nerfs on Holo.

Unfortunately this seems to have worked on Anet, since when CMC reacted to a post about Rev he basically said that Rev was dominating in mATs because it is picked by top players. Unfortunately, it's the other way around, top players pick it because it is dominating. However after that statement I expect it come out of the balance patch even more dominant.

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@Falan.1839 said:Probably got buried under the all the Rev White Knights defending every broken kitten and whining their kitten off when it got pushed of of Ranked Meta by Macebow Berserker for a few months. I mean, even the patch that completely overtuned Impossible Odds and put a free 3k dmg + boon removal on Shiro F2 was sold as nerf here in the forum by some clowns. And even now there are still Rev mains shouting for more nerfs on Holo.

Unfortunately this seems to have worked on Anet, since when CMC reacted to a post about Rev he basically said that Rev was dominating in mATs because it is picked by top players. Unfortunately, it's the other way around, top players pick it because it is dominating. However after that statement I expect it come out of the balance patch even more dominant.

Herald is very dependent on team mates. Very. This is why its success in ATs, does not necessarily equal same success in ranked. Not that it is bad. As balance currently stands, in random ranked, thief works much better in most situations, when fulfilling the same role. Not saying ATs are not important, but dunno how much weight I give it, since a very tiny fraction of the PvP community plays it anyway.

I am more interest in none herald/shiro options becoming viable. Versus Anet wasting their time tinkering with power herald. And there are far more offensive builds than power rev in the current meta.

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The only thing that's broken in this game IMO is the ability to attack while evading. It still seams crazy to me that this is even a thing.

It defiles the very foundation of the combat mechanics this game was based on. It's been growing like a cancer for years along with power creep.

Unrelenting Assault and Pistol Whip both have low/no cool-downs so they can be spammed throughout a fight. Not to mention that both classes have copious blinds as well. I know I don't have to tell you how broken Mirage is but, it's a fact that a good Mirage can effectively kite 2-3 attackers with only a few brief moments of vulnerability, all while dealing damage to multiple targets. Doesn't make sense. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone have long CDs which makes sense.

Entering in to a group fight on point in P1-P3, it's not uncommon for me to only land 1-2 hits while holding point, before dying or running.

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@MementoMortis.4258 said:The only thing that's broken in this game IMO is the ability to attack while evading. It still seams crazy to me that this is even a thing.

It defiles the very foundation of the combat mechanics this game was based on. It's been growing like a cancer for years along with power creep.

Unrelenting Assault and Pistol Whip both have low/no cool-downs so they can be spammed throughout a fight. Not to mention that both classes have copious blinds as well. I know I don't have to tell you how broken Mirage is but, it's a fact that a good Mirage can effectively kite 2-3 attackers with only a few brief moments of vulnerability, all while dealing damage to multiple targets. Doesn't make sense. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone have long CDs which makes sense.

Entering in to a group fight on point in P1-P3, it's not uncommon for me to only land 1-2 hits while holding point, before dying or running.

This is how rev is was designed to be broken. Here are the fixes that will make rev not broken: Require LoS on Sword 5 and Phase Traversal. Remove the bonus 25 energy from Riposting shadows. Remove the 1/4s activation from Facet of Light and make Infuse Light an interruptible channeled ability. Add some sort of energy cost to the Facet Consume abilities. Unrelenting Assault now only deals very minor damage for every strike except the last, which does significant damage. Surge of the mists now has a 1/2s wind-up.

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@MementoMortis.4258 said:The only thing that's broken in this game IMO is the ability to attack while evading. It still seams crazy to me that this is even a thing.

It defiles the very foundation of the combat mechanics this game was based on. It's been growing like a cancer for years along with power creep.

Unrelenting Assault and Pistol Whip both have low/no cool-downs so they can be spammed throughout a fight. Not to mention that both classes have copious blinds as well. I know I don't have to tell you how broken Mirage is but, it's a fact that a good Mirage can effectively kite 2-3 attackers with only a few brief moments of vulnerability, all while dealing damage to multiple targets. Doesn't make sense. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone have long CDs which makes sense.

Entering in to a group fight on point in P1-P3, it's not uncommon for me to only land 1-2 hits while holding point, before dying or running.

BlindBlockInvulnerability

While attacking is bad too!

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@"Ovark.2514" said:Require LoS on Sword 5 and Phase Traversal.Add LoS requirement to ALL ranged skills, including teleports, portals and shadow steps.

Remove the bonus 25 energy from Riposting shadows.And than remove Energy costs from Utility skills. Energy already is a crippling part of the Revenant design. It doesn't need to get any harder to manage while also having cooldowns. Thief skills only have either cooldowns or Initiative costs. I cannot fathom why Revenant wasn't designed that way as well.

make Infuse Light an interruptible channeled ability.And let Engineer's during the shrink elixir be interruptible.That shrink finisher is downright cheating. If nothing can interact with them, they should interact with nothing as well.

Add some sort of energy cost to the Facet Consume abilities.Just no, for the already mentioned reason.

Unrelenting Assault now only deals very minor damage for every strike except the last, which does significant damage. Surge of the mists now has a 1/2s wind-up.And while we're at it, give some Thief skills lower damage and "wind-up" animations, too.

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@Ovark.2514

Remove the bonus 25 energy from Riposting shadows.That has to be the best, in that case remove Might Makes Right from the game too please. In fact remove Vigor from the game as well and all the traits related to endurance regeneration, that'll teach people for having any at all because it's totally unfair to have one thing that gives any.

You're also talking about bugs that plagues every classes so really, Revenant is all but broken.

@Fueki.4753

Thief skills only have either cooldowns or Initiative costs. I cannot fathom why Revenant wasn't designed that way as well.So you're saying that it would be a good thing for Revenant to infinitely cast Unrelenting Assault with Inspiring Reinforcement? I still fail to see why people say Revenant is badly designed altogether, the profession as I came and go playing it for long has showed me how well thought out it is and that the majority if not 90% of the players that play Revenant can't even make their legends work together at all to achieve the way the class was meant to be.

When Anet had decided to give only one weapon set for the Revenant, it's pretty much for a good reason. Let you know, most of the time I rarely swap weapon playing it if at all. It could have worked if the game didn't end up so bloated as they had to cater to the difficulty users already had understanding it altogether which is baffling because it's not really that complicated.

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@Shao.7236 said:@Fueki.4753

Thief skills only have either cooldowns or Initiative costs. I cannot fathom why Revenant wasn't designed that way as well.So you're saying that it would be a good thing for Revenant to infinitely cast Unrelenting Assault with Inspiring Reinforcement? I still fail to see why people say Revenant is badly designed altogether, the profession as I came and go playing it for long has showed me how well thought out it is and that the majority if not 90% of the players that play Revenant can't even make their legends work together at all to achieve the way the class was meant to be.

When Anet had decided to give only one weapon set for the Revenant, it's pretty much for a good reason. Let you know, most of the time I rarely swap weapon playing it if at all. It could have worked if the game didn't end up so bloated as they had to cater to the difficulty users already had understanding it altogether which is baffling because it's not really that complicated.

They could have designed Revenant to only have cooldowns on Weapon skills, but no energy cost.Utility skills would consume the Energy via upkeep/channeling. After all, Revenants are supposed to channel the memories of the Mists.

I still fail to see why people say Revenant is badly designed altogetherHaving skills require multiple resources is not a design many are happy with.Especially when the other professions' skill do only require one resource.Another point towards the bad design idea many have is the obvious lack of utility skills and the inability to customize utilities.And then we also have the new loadout system resetting the order of Legends and Utility skills.

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@Ovark.2514 said:It must have gotten buried under all that stuff on the table.

Revenant was literally absent from the meta for half of that time, what 5 years are you talking about? Also it recieved 2 traitline reworks and countless balance adjustments, weapon skill reworks(offhand sword, staff comes to mind, and I don't even play much revenant, there might be more). How can you even present this continous attention as "gotten buried under all that stuff"?

@Ovark.2514 said:

@MementoMortis.4258 said:The only thing that's broken in this game IMO is the ability to
attack while evading
. It still seams crazy to me that this is even a thing.

It defiles the very foundation of the combat mechanics this game was based on. It's been growing like a cancer for years along with power creep.

Unrelenting Assault and Pistol Whip both have low/no cool-downs so they can be spammed throughout a fight. Not to mention that both classes have copious blinds as well. I know I don't have to tell you how broken Mirage is but, it's a fact that a good Mirage can effectively kite 2-3 attackers with only a few brief moments of vulnerability, all while dealing damage to multiple targets. Doesn't make sense. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone have long CDs which makes sense.

Entering in to a group fight on point in P1-P3, it's not uncommon for me to only land 1-2 hits while holding point, before dying or running.

This is how rev is was designed to be broken. Here are the fixes that will make rev not broken: Require LoS on Sword 5 and Phase Traversal. Remove the bonus 25 energy from Riposting shadows. Remove the 1/4s activation from Facet of Light and make Infuse Light an interruptible channeled ability. Add some sort of energy cost to the Facet Consume abilities. Unrelenting Assault now only deals very minor damage for every strike except the last, which does significant damage. Surge of the mists now has a 1/2s wind-up.

Yeah, this would remove shiroglint revenant from pvp. Everyone and their mother has on demand interrupts in this meta, Infuse Light and Surge of the Mists wouldn't be casted in teamfights ever again. But I guess that's your goal, otherwise you'd have suggested something that's not equivalent with the deletion of the spec.

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@MementoMortis.4258 said:it's a fact that a good Mirage can effectively kite 2-3 attackers with only a few brief moments of vulnerability, all while dealing damage to multiple targets.Proves ?Where is this mirage ?Even misha can't doing this versus same level opponents.It's funny how people are still thinking mirage is fine and op with only 4 in top 100.

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@"viquing.8254" said:It's funny how people are still thinking mirage is fine and op with only 4 in top 100.

We have 9 professions, with 2 elite specs each, which makes a sum of 27.100 divided by 27 is about 3.7, or rounded up 4.Yes, Mirage is in a fine spot.

But then again, the top 100 doesn't mean anything with all the "Meta-gaming" and matchmaking abuse that's going on.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:It's funny how people are still thinking mirage is fine and op with only 4 in top 100.

We have 9 professions, with 2 elite specs each, which makes a sum of 27.100 divided by 27 is about 3.7, or rounded up 4.Yes, Mirage is in a fine spot.

But then again, the top 100 doesn't mean anything with all the "Meta-gaming" and matchmaking abuse that's going on.

Now take in count the number of viable spec per class and come back with your "looking smart" explanations please.hint : there isn't 27 specs playables.hint 2 : base you math on class regrouping spec.hint3 : you think there is 4 chrono top 100 ? B)

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sure the chasing capabilities are annoying, besides that dealing with a rev is all about watching it's healing skill icon and not burst him to full life again

the bunker one is certainly annoying

sometimes i feel ppl are playing a class thats not supposed to win against the class they claiming to be op

it's like complainting about mirage when I'm playing fresh weaver, if I dont burst them by surprised I'll most likely die if the mirage is playing at the same level as me

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@MementoMortis.4258 said:The only thing that's broken in this game IMO is the ability to
attack while evading
. It still seams crazy to me that this is even a thing.

It defiles the very foundation of the combat mechanics this game was based on. It's been growing like a cancer for years along with power creep.

Unrelenting Assault and Pistol Whip both have low/no cool-downs so they can be spammed throughout a fight. Not to mention that both classes have copious blinds as well. I know I don't have to tell you how broken Mirage is but, it's a fact that a good Mirage can effectively kite 2-3 attackers with only a few brief moments of vulnerability, all while dealing damage to multiple targets. Doesn't make sense. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone have long CDs which makes sense.

Entering in to a group fight on point in P1-P3, it's not uncommon for me to only land 1-2 hits while holding point, before dying or running.

BlindBlockInvulnerability

While attacking is bad too!

All of those generally have modest to long cds. There is nothing in the game that has a quick cooldown that allows you to go invul and block while spamming high powered attacks. In fact it can be argued that block shouldn't even be mentioned, there are many unblockable skills in the game to counter it. Evade has no counter, which is the problem.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Ovark.2514" said:Require LoS on Sword 5 and Phase Traversal.Add LoS requirement to ALL ranged skills, including teleports, portals and shadow steps.

Remove the bonus 25 energy from Riposting shadows.And than remove Energy costs from Utility skills. Energy already is a crippling part of the Revenant design. It doesn't need to get any harder to manage while also having cooldowns. Thief skills only have
either
cooldowns
or
Initiative costs. I cannot fathom why Revenant wasn't designed that way as well.

Yes I did fail to mention how weapon skills should have their energy cost removed and that utilities should have no CD at all. Energy costs may have to be reevaluated ovc.

make Infuse Light an interruptible channeled ability.And let Engineer's during the shrink elixir be interruptible.That shrink finisher is downright cheating. If nothing can interact with them, they should interact with nothing as well.

And while we're at it, give some Thief skills lower damage and "wind-up" animations, too.

This is the reason actual balance discussion can't happen with this game. So many things are broken that the moment you bring up one class or skill type/trait, another person will say "But what about THIS?!!! Your idea is bad because for some reason I can't seem to imagine a scenario in which this change would enter the game along side changes to other classes." All the while forgetting that every decent sized balance patch we've ever had that I can remember has come with changes to every profession. Yes, obviously elixir S is one of the most broken engi abilities atm as my other posts have pointed out. Yes thief PW needs to be changed so it's not so braindead. Yes, there are MANY years of neglect in this mode that can't all be addressed in ONE forum post.

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I don't mind Rev. It's a strong class, but it's got clear defined weaknesses too. Anet did a good job of giving its hard hitting skills proper telegraphs and it struggles against consistent condi pressure. It does well into bursty classes thanks to glint heal, but will have difficulties against bruiser specs. Hilariously enough, Druid beats it 1v1 because it does just enough damage to kill it, can easily sustrain through Herald's damage, and doesn't do enough damage itself to give herald enough value via glint heal.

It just so happens that the current meta favors it. It's kill or be killed meta, everyone is glass. Condi specs like fire weaver and burn guard rely on bursting you down with burning, but have steep drop offs in damage once they've blown their CD's. Herald can easily exploit that. Weaver and Guard don't put out much in the way of cover condis so Herald's limited cleanses can still save them in clutch scenarios. Scourge, the (cough) scourge of any Herald spec has been nerfed into the ground, which removes the best spec for shutting down herald, between it's constant boon corrupts and its high consistent condi output.

Despite all of this, there is still clear and obvious counterplay to a herald. Dodge shackling wave, don't stand in Elemental burst, pause dps when it has glint heal active, don't get hit by the big obvious glowing dragon, be prepared to dodge if you see the windup of phase traversal.

If Anet were to nerf Herald I have a two suggesions.

  1. Specifically target Herald and not Shiro. Nerfing Shiro nerfs both Renegade and Core rev, neither of which are an issue. Ideally, with the sweeping nerfs that Anet will be doing, underpowered specs like core Rev (I personally main Shiro Mallyx core rev) and Renegade will be more playable.
  2. Do not touch Herald in PvE. It's already below the pack in raids and fractals and is often overlooked in favor of Alacrigade or Condi Ren.
  3. Give compensation buffs to Kalla, Ventari, Jalis, and Mallyx. You only see Shiro/Glint because the other legends are so much weaker by comparison.
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@Kuma.1503 said:I don't mind Rev. It's a strong class, but it's got clear defined weaknesses too. Anet did a good job of giving its hard hitting skills proper telegraphs and it struggles against consistent condi pressure. It does well into bursty classes thanks to glint heal, but will have difficulties against bruiser specs. Hilariously enough, Druid beats it 1v1 because it does just enough damage to kill it, can easily sustrain through Herald's damage, and doesn't do enough damage itself to give herald enough value via glint heal.

It just so happens that the current meta favors it. It's kill or be killed meta, everyone is glass. Condi specs like fire weaver and burn guard rely on bursting you down with burning, but have steep drop offs in damage once they've blown their CD's. Herald can easily exploit that. Weaver and Guard don't put out much in the way of cover condis so Herald's limited cleanses can still save them in clutch scenarios. Scourge, the (cough) scourge of any Herald spec has been nerfed into the ground, which removes the best spec for shutting down herald, between it's constant boon corrupts and its high consistent condi output.

Despite all of this, there is still clear and obvious counterplay to a herald. Dodge shackling wave, don't stand in Elemental burst, pause dps when it has glint heal active, don't get hit by the big obvious glowing dragon, be prepared to dodge if you see the windup of phase traversal.

If Anet were to nerf Herald I have a two suggesions.

  1. Specifically target Herald and not Shiro. Nerfing Shiro nerfs both Renegade and Core rev, neither of which are an issue. Ideally, with the sweeping nerfs that Anet will be doing, underpowered specs like core Rev (I personally main Shiro Mallyx core rev) and Renegade will be more playable.
  2. Do not touch Herald in PvE. It's already below the pack in raids and fractals and is often overlooked in favor of Alacrigade or Condi Ren.
  3. Give compensation buffs to Kalla, Ventari, Jalis, and Mallyx. You only see Shiro/Glint because the other legends are so much weaker by comparison.

there is no good condi builds out there, so rev has no counters, simple as that.devs made sure that cmirage bites the dust along with scourge and condi thief.having weak defence against condi is meaningless if there is no viable condi builds out there, and the one that is being played ( fire weaver )still deals good chunk of its damage as power due to 25might stacks.Rev is too tanky and too slippery for what it does, and has answears to ALOT of things.Its too hard to lock it down, even if it gets low on HP it can stall for a long time before it runs or dies.It can go on constant offence and generate ALOT of offensive value that other specs have problems with.Most classes that fit similar role to rev have problems with sustain damage after hight spike, but rev does not.It needs shaves here and there but nothing major, or at least introduce some condi builds back into the meta so the rev can be contested.As it stands right now there is none.

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