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Genesis.5169

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Have you tried playing against condition builds the same way you do Power builds?

Of course not. You don't play against every class exactly the same way, let alone play against power builds the same way you do against condi builds. You have to change out utility skills and your approach on the basis of who you're facing. And if you seriously think blinds, blocks, and dodges mitigate the majority of condition damage the same way they mitigate the majority of power damage, you must have stopped playing PvP in 2015 when pistol/pistol HGH and boon strip necro were the high profile condi/celestial builds.

We are very far removed from the days where just dodging an engineer's Blowtorch or a necromancer's Plague Signet would single-handedly win you 1v1s. Condition builds these days are relentless by comparison, and both mesmer and necromancer just have access to too many condi applicators these days to bother slotting additional blocks or blinds into your build. You gain significantly more mileage just putting 1-2 condition cleansing skills on your bar. You definitely want to dodge as many shatters as you can, but the truth is that mesmers reapply conditions much faster than your endurance bar will refill.

Your best defense is literally just activating Purge Gyro every 25 seconds, like I said before.

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Translation: "No, I haven't bothered to learn which skills on a condition build hurt most and attempt to avoid them."

Do you adapt your skills based on who you are fighting? Ideally, but the basic strategy for defense works equally well no matter who you're fighting: avoid the hardest hitting skills. You don't need to cleanse what you never get hit with and you don't need to survive damage you don't take.

Do you avoid everything? No, and you shouldn't. Focus on avoiding the worst, not all of it entirely.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:I don't recall ever saying you mitigate the majority of condi damage that way just like you don't mitigate the majority of Power damage that way.

You literally asked me: "Have you tried playing against condition builds the same way you do Power builds? You know, dodging, blocking, blinding?"

Dodging, blocking, and blinding are not as equally effective versus condi builds as they are versus power. If that was the case, no one would have to slot any condition removal skills on their bar. You came into this discussion trying to defend a completely absurd talking point, and you still feel the need to misconstrue my statements:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:You said yourself why you get overwhelmed by conditions on a regular basis.

I never said any of that, actually. In fact I said quite the opposite. What I actually said is that condi builds are really effing boring to fight against. I never found condi builds difficult to counter. I have no idea how it is for holosmith since I just bought PoF like last week and haven't yet touched it, but as a scrapper you literally just ran both Elixir C and Purge Gyro versus mesmer/necro heavy teams. You could even stand in thief death blossoms all day. The class was already braindead enough to 1v2 at far all game long; handling a condition mesmer or thief 1v1 wasn't that difficult.

Either have the respect to respond to what I actually write or just don't reply at all. Thanks.

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Dodging/blocking/blinding are equally effective against Condition builds as Power builds. Condition builds don't attack any faster or slower than Power. They may burst just like Power, or they may be sustained...just like Power. If you think they aren't, it's because you don't see the lack of immediate punishment for failing as a reason to not attempt to do so. Or because you can cleanse later, you don't need to defend now. I don't know which is it, but thinking that a high active defense build that's great against Power builds sucks against condition builds is completely wrong. Maybe it's great against burst builds (of all types) or maybe it's great against sustained damage builds (of all types), but the division between Power and Condition damage isn't actually relevant there.

Also, I've never run into a Scrapper who relied just upon Purge Gyro and Elixer C and ignored their active defense against condition builds (Death Blossom doesn't hit that hard, so saying you could tank that all day doesn't mean much). Well, none that lasted long, anyway.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Dodging/blocking/blinding are equally effective against Condition builds as Power builds ... thinking that a high active defense build that's great against Power builds sucks against condition builds is completely wrong.

If what you were saying was true then there would be no need for condition removal skills to be in the game.

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@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Dodging/blocking/blinding
are
equally effective against Condition builds as Power builds ... thinking that a high active defense build that's great against Power builds sucks against condition builds is completely wrong.

If what you were saying was true then there would be no need for condition removal skills to be in the game.

What?How do you get to that end exactly can you explain that?

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:Dodging/blocking/blinding
are
equally effective against Condition builds as Power builds ... thinking that a high active defense build that's great against Power builds sucks against condition builds is completely wrong.

If what you were saying was true then there would be no need for condition removal skills to be in the game.

What?How do you get to that end exactly can you explain that?

It's really not that complicated, man.

If active defenses like blocks and dodges were equally effective versus condition damage builds as they are versus power damage builds, then there'd absolutely be no need to run condition removal skills on your bar or in your trait lines. But I think we all know that is simply not the case for two reasons: (1) there are unblockable condi skills like Corrupt Boon and (2) condi builds apply sufficient pressure oftentimes just by auto-attacking. This is the case in literally every facet of the game. Next to using Shrapnel Grenade and Blowtorch off cooldown, it's Incendiary Powder and Incendiary Ammo that always carried some of the heaviest weight in the condi engi damage rotation in raids. You used to actually be able to walk up to someone in PvP with Incendiary Ammo activated and 100-0 them from stealth before Napalming their downed corpse and invuln-stomping them with Elixir S.

We did this for years.

To do as they suggested, to "try playing against condition builds the same way you do power builds," would get you absolutely trashed. I have no idea who either of you are or what ratings you tend to play in, but there historically have only really been two real counters to boon-strip/condi necro: run a ton of condi cleanse in your build or simply don't rely on boons. Unfortunately, for some classes, like elementalist and engineer, the latter just isn't really an option; this is why for literally this game's entire existence necromancer has been the kryptonite to both those professions and always emerges as a meta profession any time elementalist or engineer climb on top. It happened with cele rifle, it happened with d/d cele, it happened with p/p HGH, and it happened with both scrapper and tempest.

You used to be able to win 1v1s against necromancers as an engi by effectively dodging Plague Signet and Feast of Corruption and by meta-gaming their automatic 3 condi transfer through the pistol, but nowadays there's just nothing you can really do. Between HGH and the hammer auto you're just pumping out too many boons to effectively control it from being corrupted, and there's so many different conditions flying around all the time that your traits are activating and deactivating without much active involvement.

Heart of Thorns brought a lot of changes to the game that -- to many veterans -- both bloated APM while simultaneously dumbing down the combat, and there's not really a better representative of that change than how condition damage builds have shifted from 2015 onwards.

If my comments still don't make sense to you, then I guess it will remain a mystery for you. Maybe one day these words will mean something to you.

And if not, oh well.

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By your logic, there would be no need to run skills that give Protection, traits that reduce damage taken, or inflict Weakness. There are, though. Active Defense is universal in effectiveness, no matter what kind of build you're fighting. But it's not supposed to stop everything. That's where condition cleansing and Protection/Weakness come in.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:By your logic, there would be no need to run skills that give Protection, traits that reduce damage taken, or inflict Weakness. There are, though. Active Defense is universal in effectiveness, no matter what kind of build you're fighting. But it's not supposed to stop everything. That's where condition cleansing and Protection/Weakness come in.

It's funny you say that when there are, in fact, many PvP builds that do not rely on access to protection. Some professions like thief don't even have native access to it. That's the funny thing about power metas that people in this thread keep trying to explain to you: power metas are usually a little more open to experimentation and diversity.

But I'm glad you iterated this, because I think it's central to the main issue I originally voiced: all of these things you're talking about, like protection and weakness, are active defenses. What differentiates them from straight condi removal is that they're activated before the damage is taken. That's why fighting against power builds also generally ends up requiring a bit more perception and awareness than fighting against a condi build does.

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Thieves also have the highest level of active negation in the game (since you want to call Protection active defense). They actually have got good Weakness uptime, though, which serves the same purpose, and there has never been a meta thief build without that.

The point is that Protection/Weakness and condition cleanse are more or less equivalents for the respective damage types. By pretending that active defense is sufficient for Power damage, but no good against Condition damage is a flat-out lie.

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@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:The point is that Protection/Weakness and condition cleanse are more or less equivalents for the respective damage types. By pretending that active defense is sufficient for Power damage, but no good against Condition damage is a flat-out lie.

Protection/weakness go into play before the damage is taken, while condition cleanses go into play after the damage is taken.

This. distinction. matters.

One is active defense. The other is reactive.

Outside of passive traits like Adaptive Armor, which was never really competitive with Final Salvo, there are really only two ways to actively reduce condition damage, and they're both kind of garbage: light aura and resistance. Resistance is fairly rare, and the only classes that really have ample access to it are revenant with demon stance and warrior. Resistance can also be stripped or corrupted like any other boon. Light aura is a bit less rare, but it's still pretty difficult to access it, as very few professions even get light fields/auras, let alone light fields that are worth slotting into their build alongside leap finishers. Light aura is also pretty terrible in that they opted to take away the vulnerability stacking in favor of condi damage reduction while leaving the retaliation -- an anti-power boon -- in place. To use the current dev team's favorite buzz term, Light Aura truly lacks a "purity of purpose" at the moment. And not only is light aura pretty difficult to get, but it isn't really all that powerful compared to the options provided versus power builds.

Light Aura only reduces condition damage by 10%, whereas protection reduces power damage by 33%. Weakness furthermore halves the damage output of half their hits, and I can permanently sustain that on anyone through the E-Gun auto-attack, Tranquilizer Dart. Weakness also has the advantage of slowing their endurance regeneration, which means it can be used offensively and defensively -- a feature that Frost Aura similarly shares by both chilling enemies and reducing my damage taken by 10%.

Condition damage is very obviously balanced on the basis of condition removal skills existing, which is why they're overwhelmingly more common and on every profession -- unlike resistance and light aura. Your ability to effectively counter condi builds is reliant on how many condition removal skills are on your bar; any assertion otherwise is just false.

I'm amazed that anyone would even bother trying to argue otherwise, and yet here we are.

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  • 1 year later...

Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it. All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population. If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.

Now that the dust has settled do you guys really think it was a good idea to destroy condition in pvp?If so why? How has pvp gotten any better?

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@Genesis.5169 said:Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it. All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population. If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.

Now that the dust has settled do you guys really think it was a good idea to destroy condition in pvp?If so why? How has pvp gotten any better?

This is a meme, right?

It's gotta be a meme.

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Mesmer main here.

@Genesis.5169 said:Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it.Condi mirage is a mediocre/niche choice in this meta. It has a lot of projectile attacks which is countered by ele, firebrand and even thieves.That's why it feels bad.

All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population.That's pretty farfetched.

If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.Condi mirage and core oneshot mesmer is playable, but they are a shadow of their former selves. I want axe and portal to be relevant again.

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@Genesis.5169 said:Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it. All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population. If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.

Now that the dust has settled do you guys really think it was a good idea to destroy condition in pvp?If so why? How has pvp gotten any better?

Something something necro post something

But yes. I still hate conditions more then 1. shots.

Dont get me wrong, i hate both.

But the problem with 1shots lies more in stealth/range.

I would not have a problem with power mesmer if he could not Ohko out of stealth.

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@BadMed.3846 said:We're just going through stages of required nerfs. Mesmer brokenness comes to light further and further with every nerf. We must keep nerfiing the Mesmer until it gets balanced. It is perfectly OK.Even if mesmer would be deleted you would be still in your s3 but blame the mesmer :)@DanAlcedo.3281 said:I would not have a problem with power mesmer if he could not Ohko out of stealth.Remembers FA ele oneshots You(and the others) would still cry regardless

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A necromancer cast Feast of Corruption on me and I dodged it. The conditions didn't apply. I assume this is a bug of some sort?

Also I got hit by a power attack but was unable to retroactively block it four seconds later when my block came off cooldown. I assume this is a bug as well. Anet get on this please, your game is very buggy.

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@Curennos.9307 said:A necromancer cast Feast of Corruption on me and I dodged it. The conditions didn't apply. I assume this is a bug of some sort?

Also I got hit by a power attack but was unable to retroactively block it four seconds later when my block came off cooldown. I assume this is a bug as well. Anet get on this please, your game is very buggy.

you fool! you were supposed to dodge ->dodge->dodge->block->pary->aegis->dodge and then stealth!those are the basics of combat. you made simple mistake of not dodging 6 times in a row and paid the price for it!

/sobv sarcasm

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Then we will be right back here at the forums everyday, complaining, whining, and moaning until Mesmer is on par with revenant :o

Everyone get your pitchforks

Remember when Revenant was legit bad in the face of POF until Sword Offhand got it's own POF power creep?

My how the times changed.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:Quaggan still wonders why Elusive Mind wasn't touched by magical nerf stick.

when I googled elusive mind gw2, first thing that poofed into the browser was Exuhastion XDElusive Mind -> grandmaster trait, when you dodge you get exuhasted. xd

Yep i have no idea why they nerfed elusive mind so hard it may aswell not be on the trait lists.

@Tayga.3192 said:Mesmer main here.

@Genesis.5169 said:Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it.Condi mirage is a mediocre/niche choice in this meta. It has a lot of projectile attacks which is countered by ele, firebrand and even thieves.That's why it feels bad.

All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population.That's pretty farfetched.

If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.Condi mirage and core oneshot mesmer is playable, but they are a shadow of their former selves. I want axe and portal to be relevant again.

I Knew this was coming two years ago this is why i took this long break i come back and find out my fears came true the completely destroyed every condition build in the game and pvp has suffered for it.

I see do not understand why people would rather be bursted down then slowly killed with dots.People to lazy to cleanse?

@Genesis.5169 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Then we will be right back here at the forums everyday, complaining, whining, and moaning until Mesmer is on par with revenant :o

Everyone get your pitchforks

Remember when Revenant was legit bad in the face of POF until Sword Offhand got it's own POF power creep?

My how the times changed.

@Morwath.9817 said:Quaggan still wonders why Elusive Mind wasn't touched by magical nerf stick.

when I googled elusive mind gw2, first thing that poofed into the browser was Exuhastion XDElusive Mind -> grandmaster trait, when you dodge you get exuhasted. xd

Yep i have no idea why they nerfed elusive mind so hard it may aswell not be on the trait lists.

@Tayga.3192 said:Mesmer main here.

@Genesis.5169 said:Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it.Condi mirage is a mediocre/niche choice in this meta. It has a lot of projectile attacks which is countered by ele, firebrand and even thieves.That's why it feels bad.

All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population.That's pretty farfetched.

If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.Condi mirage and core oneshot mesmer is playable, but they are a shadow of their former selves. I want axe and portal to be relevant again.

i Knew this was coming two years ago this is why i took this long break i come back and find out my fears came true the completely destroyed every condition build in the game and pvp has suffered for it.

I see do not understand why people would rather be bursted down then slowly killed with dots.People to lazy to cleanse?

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:Nearly two years later, condition is definitely dead and pvp is no better for it. All we have done is force condition users out of the game thus further reducing the player population. If you disagree with this notion state why i've just returned back to pvp been playing for a week now about 20 or so hours and looks like we are ruled by power burst meta and all mesmer builds have been gutted.

Now that the dust has settled do you guys really think it was a good idea to destroy condition in pvp?If so why? How has pvp gotten any better?

Something something necro post something

But yes. I still hate conditions more then 1. shots.

Dont get me wrong, i hate both.

But the problem with 1shots lies more in stealth/range.

I would not have a problem with power mesmer if he could not Ohko out of stealth.

I seriously have no idea why anet believe they should balance pvp around people who "feel" and "not like" things you guys are not worth balancing over because you guys dont take the time to understand counterplay and what you have thats my 2 cents.

Come on guys 2 years later give me your opinions.

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@Genesis.5169 people dont like conditions for several reasons.1 its another thing they have to look out for and keep in mind. You dont have to THINK when and how to cleanse if condi builds arent viable. makes the game easy and more newb friendly.2 When you die to condi, they pretend that nothing hit them and just broken condi kills them for free, while in fact they ate 5+ abilities. Its much easier to pretend that you played properly and died cuz X broken then accept that you fucked up.

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@"Genesis.5169" said:People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

vs power - 1 well timed dodge = 0 to minimal damage, the rest you can shrug off or out evade... Assuming they stay. (Also they can't blink and decoy twice unless chrono.) I don't consider that "no counter play".

vs condi - more passive application than is possible to avoid while contesting point and winning long term by essentially keeping application through all opposing resources.

I don't disagree that there isn't a problem with this game, and possibly both builds, assuming you refer to Chaos' super-speed, (because I see 0 problems with power mirage) but yes; with the amount of evasion, blocks, invluns, and the like (signet of stone, endure pain, etc.) in this game I am FAR more willing to fight the thing where I push them off point simply from having map awareness, and good anticipation. The ONLY thing power has that is unhealthy and problematic to the health of the game, is how easy it can run away after whiffing.

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