PvP Weaver; How do you deal with core fear necro? Heavy condi in general?

[Zexanima.7851]

I'm playing S/D weaver with menders and leadership. I've been running into more core necros than usually lately. Is there an effective way to fight them or should I just gtfo when I see one? All the fears and chills completely screw me over. They can out sustain my damage with shroud while I don't have enough stunbreaks/cleansing to deal with all their fear and condi. I also don't think I have enough CC to keep them locked down.

[steki.1478]

Take middle GM trait on weaver (with water and arcane) and forget that conditions even exist. You have 4 sources of CC so it shouldn't be a big problem to lock them down. Damage on the other hand will be very low unless you swap to condi sw/f or FA sc/f, which both have better CC as well.

[Megametzler.5729]

He's probably running that already.

Core necro is indeed one of the more annoying specs for that build. The damage is not the major issue, it is the sustain and the fears/corrupts. With mender, you will hardly be able to kill it. Even with sage I am often having problems killing it. At the same time, they fear you off point - with fear skills themselves or by corrupting stability. If they can somehow get a cover condi over fear, many condi clears will only cleanse this condi instead of fear, leading to a slow decap or even cap of the point.

So with mender, the only real option is to plan outsustaining them. Do not go for full damage, go for regular cleanses. Water-air-water and ocassionally some CCs using earth. Unless you are significantly better, you will not win this matchup and stall each other at best. The one who gets the +1 first usually wins.

With sages, you have less sustain, but more damage. I sometimes can outsustain their opening and answer with burst myself. Bait out spectral walk, if you can, avoid Staff 4 (which sends conditions back to you - when he swaps to staff with some condis, they will often use it quickly. You still need some luck though). Then wait for shroud end and try a burst. Initiate with some CC, follow up with Pyro Vortex (if possible). They will try to heal then - be prepared to interrupt that. Air 2 is usually the best bet. If this doesn't work, go back to stall again...

Mender's might be able to do the same, but in my experience, it usually only stalls core necros. Sage is more risky, but you can manage to win duels sometimes with some luck and good timing.

Fire weaverwill have an incredibly hard time if the necro has his CDs up. Spectral walk basically makes them immune to burning, and they have too many condi cleanses for fire cleansing. The only chance is to burst during earth 5, but that seldomly works well enough...

[Zexanima.7851]

@Megametzler.5729 said:He's probably running that already.

Core necro is indeed one of the more annoying specs for that build. The damage is not the major issue, it is the sustain and the fears/corrupts. With mender, you will hardly be able to kill it. Even with sage I am often having problems killing it. At the same time, they fear you off point - with fear skills themselves or by corrupting stability. If they can somehow get a cover condi over fear, many condi clears will only cleanse this condi instead of fear, leading to a slow decap or even cap of the point.

So with mender, the only real option is to plan outsustaining them. Do not go for full damage, go for regular cleanses. Water-air-water and ocassionally some CCs using earth. Unless you are significantly better, you will not win this matchup and stall each other at best. The one who gets the +1 first usually wins.

With sages, you have less sustain, but more damage. I sometimes can outsustain their opening and answer with burst myself. Bait out spectral walk, if you can, avoid Staff 4 (which sends conditions back to you - when he swaps to staff with some condis, they will often use it quickly. You still need some luck though). Then wait for shroud end and try a burst. Initiate with some CC, follow up with Pyro Vortex (if possible). They will try to heal then - be prepared to interrupt that. Air 2 is usually the best bet. If this doesn't work, go back to stall again...

Mender's might be able to do the same, but in my experience, it usually only stalls core necros. Sage is more risky, but you can manage to win duels sometimes with some luck and good timing.

Fire weaverwill have an incredibly hard time if the necro has his CDs up. Spectral walk basically makes them immune to burning, and they have too many condi cleanses for fire cleansing. The only chance is to burst during earth 5, but that seldomly works well enough...

Thanks for the feedback! So it seems like I'll just need to practice against them with weaver. I'm still trying to get my skills down to muscle memory so I can pay better attention to my opponents skills. I don't have issues with power builds but condi core necro is hard to read so I usually just rotate through my skills like usual and that gets me dead.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:He's probably running that already.

Core necro is indeed one of the more annoying specs for that build. The damage is not the major issue, it is the sustain and the fears/corrupts. With mender, you will hardly be able to kill it. Even with sage I am often having problems killing it. At the same time, they fear you off point - with fear skills themselves or by corrupting stability. If they can somehow get a cover condi over fear, many condi clears will only cleanse this condi instead of fear, leading to a slow decap or even cap of the point.

So with mender, the only real option is to plan outsustaining them. Do not go for full damage, go for regular cleanses. Water-air-water and ocassionally some CCs using earth. Unless you are significantly better, you will not win this matchup and stall each other at best. The one who gets the +1 first usually wins.

With sages, you have less sustain, but more damage. I sometimes can outsustain their opening and answer with burst myself. Bait out spectral walk, if you can, avoid Staff 4 (which sends conditions back to you - when he swaps to staff with some condis, they will often use it quickly. You still need some luck though). Then wait for shroud end and try a burst. Initiate with some CC, follow up with Pyro Vortex (if possible). They will try to heal then - be prepared to interrupt that. Air 2 is usually the best bet. If this doesn't work, go back to stall again...

Mender's might be able to do the same, but in my experience, it usually only stalls core necros. Sage is more risky, but you can manage to win duels sometimes with some luck and good timing.

Fire weaverwill have an incredibly hard time if the necro has his CDs up. Spectral walk basically makes them immune to burning, and they have too many condi cleanses for fire cleansing. The only chance is to burst during earth 5, but that seldomly works well enough...

Thanks for the feedback! So it seems like I'll just need to practice against them with weaver. I'm still trying to get my skills down to muscle memory so I can pay better attention to my opponents skills. I don't have issues with power builds but condi core necro is hard to read so I usually just rotate through my skills like usual and that gets me dead.

It is less muscle memory but knowing matchups, I guess. :smile: Core necro is just a tough one for many weavers to duel. Mainly because of the many fears forcing you off point if you don't have cleanses or stunbreaks at the ready. And the sustain, which is quite good for a necro build indeed.

Remember you are also much quicker. If you see you lose the point or anything, you can always rotate to the other side node. Or stall mid. or anything. And then LF/RtL back when he full capped and ran somewhere else. This is rather situational though, you'll get the hang of it!

You need some luck predicting fears/corrupts to actually win. So if you kill one, you were definitely better than him! :wink:

[Eddbopkins.2630]

@steki.1478 said:Take middle GM trait on weaver (with water and arcane) and forget that conditions even exist...........or FA sc/f, which both have better CC as well.

With FA, if u drop water for FA air you won't have the cleansing on Regen/swiftness right? So you drop arcana for FA? But then you won't have the synergy with arcana blast or the other one or boon support for your self.

[steki.1478]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@steki.1478 said:Take middle GM trait on weaver (with water and arcane) and forget that conditions even exist...........or FA sc/f, which both have better CC as well.

With FA, if u drop water for FA air you won't have the cleansing on Regen/swiftness right? So you drop arcana for FA? But then you won't have the synergy with arcana blast or the other one or boon support for your self.

FA gives you range as well as high burst to lock down and pressure necro before he fears you. Water is used mainly for extra burst damage, arcane for defense/cc.

[reikken.4961]

I think the issue is that you're using menders. Shroud cuts power damage in half, so the best way to cut through it is with condi. Use sage amulet instead and burn through the shroud, putting them on the defensive, and then they're much easier to deal with.

[Abelisk.5148]

Welcome to your counter. You won't miss it.

[Stallic.2397]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Welcome to your counter. You won't miss it.

Scourge was bad before they got nerfed. Their corrupts and fear obliterate Ele's.

Core fear necromancer are close to the same. Reaper is the only elite that are bearable because the class relies more on power damage, which can be negated

[EUmad.7645]

go power mesmer and keep always a lot of distance. With GS they go down .

[solemn.9608]

In my experience, Fire Sw/D cele (thief rune to bring precision up to 40%) weaver is your best bet in terms of pretty much everything right now. Tanky, hybrid power/condi damage, easy access to 25 might, damage modifiers, ridiculous amount of condi cleanse (water four = 3, water five = 2, water dodge = 1, attune to fire = 1, cleansing sigil = 1) .... 8 condi cleanses that are relatively easy to access/low cooldown.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@solemn.9608 said:In my experience, Fire Sw/D cele (thief rune to bring precision up to 40%) weaver is your best bet in terms of pretty much everything right now. Tanky, hybrid power/condi damage, easy access to 25 might, damage modifiers, ridiculous amount of condi cleanse (water four = 3, water five = 2, water dodge = 1, attune to fire = 1, cleansing sigil = 1) .... 8 condi cleanses that are relatively easy to access/low cooldown.

I will have to try cele out, but using dagger offhand is pretty rough, isn't it? I mean, it does have that awesome dagger air 4 skill, but focus has that all-important invuln plus plenty of much-needed projectile hate and, with the fire build, being able to cast/detonate fire aura on fire 5 is key for condi cleanse, no?

[Megametzler.5729]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@solemn.9608 said:In my experience, Fire Sw/D cele (thief rune to bring precision up to 40%) weaver is your best bet in terms of pretty much everything right now. Tanky, hybrid power/condi damage, easy access to 25 might, damage modifiers, ridiculous amount of condi cleanse (water four = 3, water five = 2, water dodge = 1, attune to fire = 1, cleansing sigil = 1) .... 8 condi cleanses that are relatively easy to access/low cooldown.

I will have to try cele out, but using dagger offhand is pretty rough, isn't it? I mean, it does have that awesome dagger air 4 skill, but focus has that all-important invuln plus plenty of much-needed projectile hate and, with the fire build, being able to cast/detonate fire aura on fire 5 is key for condi cleanse, no?

Also, cele has way less damage and healing potential. It can add some toughness, which can be helpful in certain situations, but usually not worth it. Speaking from my own experience here.

And you are absolutely right about the fire aura thing. It is one of the reasons fire weaver is so dominant currently and absolutely depends on focus offhand. The constant aura cleansing is huge, though core necro will remain a tough one if he manages to keep corrupting stability.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@solemn.9608 said:In my experience, Fire Sw/D cele (thief rune to bring precision up to 40%) weaver is your best bet in terms of pretty much everything right now. Tanky, hybrid power/condi damage, easy access to 25 might, damage modifiers, ridiculous amount of condi cleanse (water four = 3, water five = 2, water dodge = 1, attune to fire = 1, cleansing sigil = 1) .... 8 condi cleanses that are relatively easy to access/low cooldown.

I will have to try cele out, but using dagger offhand is pretty rough, isn't it? I mean, it does have that awesome dagger air 4 skill, but focus has that all-important invuln plus plenty of much-needed projectile hate and, with the fire build, being able to cast/detonate fire aura on fire 5 is key for condi cleanse, no?

Also, cele has way less damage and healing potential. It can add some toughness, which can be helpful in certain situations, but usually not worth it. Speaking from my own experience here.

And you are absolutely right about the fire aura thing. It is one of the reasons fire weaver is so dominant currently and absolutely depends on focus offhand. The constant aura cleansing is huge, though core necro will remain a tough one if he manages to keep corrupting stability.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Focus seems mandatory for the fire weaver build. It has pretty much everything fire weaver needs while dagger really doesn't bring anything to the table other than air 4. Now for water weaver, where you don't have the cleanse on fire aura/detonate and you have better sustain, I think dagger offhand is a much more viable choice. Also, the mobility is relatively more useful because your damage is so much less. It's really important to stay on them with the pressure.

I also agree on the celestial stats. While toughness is useful, I don't think it's worth giving up a chunk of everything else. It seems to me that having more healing would benefit pretty much any weaver build more than toughness would. Playing with Sage just feels right to me. It's an almost perfect stat balance for fire weaver, with the extra health cushion to survive a little punishment and healing power to take advantage of those excellent heal combos in water/earth for rapid recovery. Yet it has full power and condi on it, too, so you're quite bursty and dangerous if opponents get careless! Perfect!

[lLobo.7960]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I also agree on the celestial stats. While toughness is useful, I don't think it's worth giving up a chunk of everything else. It seems to me that having more healing would benefit pretty much any weaver build more than toughness would. Playing with Sage just feels right to me. It's an almost perfect stat balance for fire weaver, with the extra health cushion to survive a little punishment and healing power to take advantage of those excellent heal combos in water/earth for rapid recovery. Yet it has full power and condi on it, too, so you're quite bursty and dangerous if opponents get careless! Perfect!

I play celestial Sw/d weaver in pvp and really prefer the celestial amulet.Keep in mind toughness is not the only stat you get over sage.You loose a some power but you get precision and ferocity... That is a little over 20% crit chance and 30% crit dmg.And that toughness is quite nice to have with so many burst builds going around.

[Yasai.3549]

Run Celestial.

Mender's Sword is a a little outdated in current times because it was widely played back when Condi pressure was less impressive and people didn't ram an entire cargo ship into yu in an instant.

Celestial will yield lesser stats than normal, but the trade off is that yu will be more "tanky" through ambient healing when yu get Regen, swap to Water, cast skills while Signet of Restoration is in effect.

Gives some Toughness too, to help with burst.

Run Scrapper runes depending on matchup, since most bursts happen in melee range. Run Leadership instead if facing down alot of Corrupts/Condi pressure.

Heal/Condi Cleanse burst is to swap to Water, Dodge, press Water 2, swap to Earth and use Earth 2 to blast the Water Field.

If yu are worried about damage, then understand that yu are gonna now be playing somewhat of a hybrid sort of build, so yu output the most damage by sticking to the target and applying damage and condis with mainly Primordial Stance + Molten Skin and some skills, and auto attacks.

Don't try to go for fancy skill combos, because Weaver, and especially Sword, isn't really a combo sort of weapon.

The only combo I can think off is to CC people with Perfect Weave and then dropping that Churning Earth on them, or to use Lightning Flash + some skills to surprise enemies.

[Megametzler.5729]

So I had a look into this. I compared the normal water weaver build, not fire, useless rune. PVP setting.

Base amulet is sage. Compared to this: mender and celestial.

Mender gets about 13% power damage, looses 55% condi damage. 2.2% less health, but 31% more healing.

Celestial gets 1.3% power damage, looses 31% condi damage. 7.5% less health and 6.2% less healing. You win 46% toughness though, which results in about 24% more armor - about the same in power damage reduction.

You decide what you want to use.

[solemn.9608]

Cele gives you more effective damage + healing/tankiness compared to a stat set that tries to accomplish achieving the same stat thresholds. That is the nature of cele - it gives you more bang for your buck, that is what it does. Weaver makes use of every stat cele gives you, it's pretty much optimized for Weaver. Sage amulet is my preferred secondary, it's good, but weak to reapers, warrior, power mes, thief, .... anything that runs burst power damage and can gank. Someone will inevitably say "but you can just evade" --- yeah I know, you can evade condi too, but it gets difficult when you're 1v3 lol. If you run cele you can actually 1vX pretty consistently. edit: but you need to get your precision above 40%, which is why I run rune of the thief.

On focus vs dagger ... I run focus when playing lightning Sw weaver because without fire traitline I end up needing the earth 4 condi cleanse + invuln and some projectile hate is useful. For fire weaver, you are mostly going to be in melee range, and you have enough mobility to clear gaps vs ranged builds very well if you're clever. You don't need an invuln because with cele your sustain is already good enough. People often forget that we're in the business of optimizing a build, not having every available assist in the game, you do not need an invuln, you simply don't, not on cele fire weaver, you have enough sustain already. Dagger will allow you to actually get kills and 1vX effectively o__o

I can't understate the following. Every time I've 1v1'd a fire weaver running focus, they barely even put up a fight, barely even scratched me, and as soon as their invuln + arcane shield passive is up they go down. I am aware that some top-tier weavers use it - having status/being a top player doesn't automatically make every build decision they make correct hehe. Honestly every time I see a fire weaver running focus, they're not very good. Lol

Again, I know focus is good for condi cleanse as well, but with dagger you have ... water four = [1+2=]3, water five = 2, water dodge = 1, attune to fire = 1, cleansing sigil = 1) .... 8 condi cleanses that are relatively easy to access/low cooldown. If you still need more cleanse then you're not putting enough pressure on the players that are applying condis to you.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"solemn.9608" said:Cele gives you more effective damage + healing/tankiness compared to a stat set that tries to accomplish achieving the same stat thresholds. That is the nature of cele - it gives you more bang for your buck, that is what it does. Weaver makes use of every stat cele gives you, it's pretty much optimized for Weaver. Sage amulet is my preferred secondary, it's good, but weak to reapers, warrior, power mes, thief, .... anything that runs burst power damage and can gank. Someone will inevitably say "but you can just evade" --- yeah I know, you can evade condi too, but it gets difficult when you're 1v3 lol. If you run cele you can actually 1vX pretty consistently. edit: but you need to get your precision above 40%, which is why I run rune of the thief.

On focus vs dagger ... I run focus when playing lightning Sw weaver because without fire traitline I end up needing the earth 4 condi cleanse + invuln and some projectile hate is useful. For fire weaver, you are mostly going to be in melee range, and you have enough mobility to clear gaps vs ranged builds very well if you're clever. You don't need an invuln because with cele your sustain is already good enough. People often forget that we're in the business of optimizing a build, not having every available assist in the game, you do not need an invuln, you simply don't, not on cele fire weaver, you have enough sustain already. Dagger will allow you to actually get kills and 1vX effectively o__o

I can't understate the following. Every time I've 1v1'd a fire weaver running focus, they barely even put up a fight, barely even scratched me, and as soon as their invuln + arcane shield passive is up they go down. I am aware that some top-tier weavers use it - having status/being a top player doesn't automatically make every build decision they make correct hehe. Honestly every time I see a fire weaver running focus, they're not very good. Lol

Again, I know focus is good for condi cleanse as well, but with dagger you have ... water four = [1+2=]3, water five = 2, water dodge = 1, attune to fire = 1, cleansing sigil = 1) .... 8 condi cleanses that are relatively easy to access/low cooldown. If you still need more cleanse then you're not putting enough pressure on the players that are applying condis to you.

Okay. I'll give it a go. Thanks for the explanation.

Edit: Just to follow up. I tested out celestial amulet and it does look very promising. I didn't think it would feel so much more solid defensively, but I guess given how little time weaver needs to recover, being able to hang on just a couple of seconds longer under pressure is all they really need. I also think I misjudged the impact on damage output. It definitely still feels threatening! I seemed to be handling those dangerous power burst types better than before.

That's just a small sample, but as I said, it does look promising and I'm going to continue playing with the celestial amulet and see how it goes. On dagger offhand, I don't think it's the right choice for me. Focus just feels better.

Thanks for the discussion! It's been helpful!

[kodesh.2851]

I much prefer tempest or core FA for fighting any flavor of necro. On weaver I usually go fire/sage and find it pretty even, just try not to let them stall the fight long enough for them to get a plus

[Milosz.5938]

Become a Friebrand :) ? ... sorry that was not funny joke. But for example I'm trying to run absolutly full power against condi... my tactic: "kill as fast as possible or die with honor" / I'm using focus offhanded

[MyPuppy.8970]

Can't say for weaver, but on core DD, running power spec with good amount of condi cleanse, and burst aqap is more effective to me than being more defensive. I'll lose fight of attrition with core nec anyway, so better not let him breathe.