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Soldier's Focus (and associated traits) are horrifically low value


Jzaku.9765

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I was worried reading the early patch notes, and having tried it now that the patch is out only confirms the issue - Soldier's Focus 15s ICD is WAY too long.

What is this mechanic supposed to achieve?

  • 3 Might on triggering Soldier's Focus with Marching Orders - Is this intended to supplement Warrior Might party generation? It makes very little sense as a trait; If stacking might for your party was your objective, there is no other might generation in the Tactics line to key off Phalanx Strength - so you would need to get more might generation from another line anyway. The problem here is that both Strength AND Disc(with Berserker Decap spam) generate SO MUCH might that this 3 might every 15s doesn't even need to exist. It's just way too slow.

    • Suggestion: If the team is adamant about keeping the 15s ICD, make this trait give value over time in some manner in addition to the 3 might - Maybe add a nerfed version of the old Tactics Trait Inspiring Presence: grant 5 Healing power for every stack of Might on the warrior.
  • 970 Healing (0.8 Healing Power Mod) with Soldier's Comfort - I'm sure this is just here in preparation for some kind of support warrior espec with access to better healing, but the value proposition of a ~2.5k heal in full healing gear every 15s is laughably low to take the space of a trait since Warrior has no stream of constant Healing (like Druid Staff, or Ele Water). Not to mention how Warrior gameplay has always been centered around landing your Burst Skills as often as possible to trigger your various other traits so you can't hold this in your back pocket without compromising your gameplay. (IMO this also applies to Shout Healing)

    • Suggestion: If the concern was the Warrior randomly healing too much in competitive game modes, this seems like the perfect place to add in some team Regen access to Warrior to allow them to trickle heal, because they have almost none right now.
  • 3s Skill CD reduction with Martial Cadence - It just seems really clunky and hard to utilize. This is the one I'm most unsure about - Warrior weapon skills trend towards low CD low value, so this seems most useful for a build that runs high value long CDs like Shield or (new)Warhorn. This trait is definitely balanced around the 15s ICD, so it has to pretty much do something completely different if the ICD of Soldier's Focus is to be looked at.

    • Suggestion by Lan Deathrider.5910: Make it grant team Alacrity instead to mitigate this clunkiness, and can easily scale with any future changes to the ICD of Soldier's Focus.
    • There are only 2 classes that can reasonably stack Alacrity right now in the game, Chrono (who also does quickness) and Rev (who does it 10 man with Renegade). Since you're explicitly giving up Phalanx Strength for Martial Cadence as it's in the same slot, you heavily cut into your ability to stack party Might - it seems perfectly reasonable to me to have Warrior be a 5 man alacrity stacker, but struggles to provide much else to the team other than dps.
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@Jzaku.9765 said:I was worried reading the early patch notes, and having tried it now that the patch is out only confirms the issue - Soldier's Focus 15s ICD is WAY too long.

What is this mechanic supposed to achieve?

  • 3 Might on triggering Soldier's Focus with Marching Orders - Is this intended to supplement Warrior Might party generation? It makes very little sense as a trait; If stacking might for your party was your objective, there is no other might generation in the Tactics line to key off Phalanx Strength - so you would need to get more might generation from another line anyway. The problem here is that both Strength AND Disc(with Berserker Decap spam) generate SO MUCH might that this 3 might every 15s doesn't even need to exist. It's just way too slow.
    • Suggestion: If the team is adamant about keeping the 15s ICD, make this trait give value over time in some manner in addition to the 3 might - Maybe add a nerfed version of the old Tactics Trait Inspiring Presence: grant 5 Healing power for every stack of Might on the warrior.

I think they did it like it is now because of Mender's Might + Might Makes Right and wanted to shy away from giving TOO much self sustain to the warrior via tactics (ha). I think you are right however that 3 stacks every 15s is kind of low considering a warrior can get back to back bursts off. Perhaps the solution is to remove the ICD from Soldier's Focus and put CDs onto Soldier's Comfort and Martial Cadence instead? That way a Warrior can pump out party might throughout the fight and the Druid can focus on other things.

  • 970 Healing (0.8 Healing Power Mod) with Soldier's Comfort - I'm sure this is just here in preparation for some kind of support warrior espec with access to better healing, but the value proposition of a ~2.5k heal in full healing gear every 15s is laughably low to take the space of a trait since Warrior has no stream of constant Healing (like Druid Staff, or Ele Water). Not to mention how Warrior gameplay has always been centered around landing your Burst Skills as often as possible to trigger your various other traits so you can't hold this in your back pocket without compromising your gameplay. (IMO this also applies to Shout Healing)
    • Suggestion: If the concern was the Warrior randomly healing too much in competitive game modes, this seems like the perfect place to add in some team Regen access to Warrior to allow them to trickle heal, because they have almost none right now.

If they remove the ICD on Soldier's Focus as I mention above I'd put the ICD on Soldier's Comfort to be 5s. That way a Berserker can't uberspam healing with Decapitate, but every warrior would be able to put out a steady stream of healing.

  • 3s Skill CD reduction with Martial Cadence - It just seems really clunky and hard to utilize. This is the one I'm most unsure about - Warrior weapon skills trend towards low CD low value, so this seems most useful for a build that runs high value long CDs like Shield or (new)Warhorn. This trait is definitely balanced around the 15s ICD, so it has to pretty much do something completely different if the ICD of Soldier's Focus is to be looked at.

This averages out to a net reduction in weapon skill CDs that is independent of weapon equipped. They should have just made it a flat CD reduction rather than the round about way. In a long fight, you'll see the reduction certainly, but in a short engagement it would depend on what skills you used. What they should probably do instead one of two things:

Change Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus grants alacrity to allies in addition to might with a 5s duration on a 12s cd.ORChange Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus reduces the weapon skill CDs of affected allies by 3s with the current 15s CD.

Both aid the party more, but the first one is something that wouldn't be so abrupt to have happen in the middle of a rotation.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Change Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus grants alacrity to allies in addition to might with a 5s duration on a 12s cd.ORChange Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus reduces the weapon skill CDs of affected allies by 3s with the current 15s CD.

Both aid the party more, but the first one is something that wouldn't be so abrupt to have happen in the middle of a rotation.

I love the Alacrity idea. Now that they explicitly decoupled Alacrity from it's Chrono association by changing it's buff animation it's time to stop being so shy with adding it to other classes. It makes sense for the Warrior's Soldier's Focus to be able to steel the nerves of their allies. I would make it 6s every 12s ICD though to be able to permanently upkeep it with full boon duration.

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@Jzaku.9765 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Change Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus grants alacrity to allies in addition to might with a 5s duration on a 12s cd.ORChange Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus reduces the weapon skill CDs of affected allies by 3s with the current 15s CD.

Both aid the party more, but the first one is something that wouldn't be so abrupt to have happen in the middle of a rotation.

I love the Alacrity idea. Now that they explicitly decoupled Alacrity from it's Chrono association by changing it's buff animation it's time to stop being so shy with adding it to other classes. It makes sense for the Warrior's
Soldier's Focus
to be able to steel the nerves of their allies. I would make it 6s every 12s ICD though to be able to permanently upkeep it with full boon duration.

Not that I disagree with permanent upkeep, but I think some other classes would balk at warrior getting that, but then it is a grandmaster trait. The benefit of the other option is that it would stack with Alacrity and allow the whole party to do even more damage.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Change Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus grants alacrity to allies in addition to might with a 5s duration on a 12s cd.ORChange Martial Cadence so that Soldier's Focus reduces the weapon skill CDs of affected allies by 3s with the current 15s CD.

Both aid the party more, but the first one is something that wouldn't be so abrupt to have happen in the middle of a rotation.

I love the Alacrity idea. Now that they explicitly decoupled Alacrity from it's Chrono association by changing it's buff animation it's time to stop being so shy with adding it to other classes. It makes sense for the Warrior's
Soldier's Focus
to be able to steel the nerves of their allies. I would make it 6s every 12s ICD though to be able to permanently upkeep it with full boon duration.

Not that I disagree with permanent upkeep, but I think some other classes would balk at warrior getting that, but then it is a grandmaster trait. The benefit of the other option is that it would stack with Alacrity and allow the whole party to do even more damage.

There are only 2 classes that can reasonably stack Alacrity right now in the game, Chrono (who also does quickness) and Rev (who does it 10 man with Renegade). Since you're explicitly giving up Phalanx Strength for Martial Cadence as it's in the same slot you heavily cut into your ability to stack party Might it seems perfectly reasonable to me to have Warrior be a 5 man alacrity stacker, but struggles to provide much else to the team other than dps.

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@Jzaku.9765 said:

@otto.5684 said:Tying team healing to landing burst is never going to work. And 15 sec ICD is ridiculous.

There's always longbow. I think the concept in general is fine - Warrior achieving their form of support by being offensive/aggressive sets its playstyle apart from the other classes.

Tying team healing to Bursts can work with a different CD.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:I think a reducing CD the longer you are in combat could work. 15s first burst, 12s next, 9, 6, etc.

Would that be an easy thing to implement though?

The difficulty of a solution isn't something a consumer needs or should be concerned about. Consumers are good at identifying problems, not necessarily solutions. I offered one as an example, but it's more likely than a completely separate solution is what would actually be done.

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@ButterPeanut.9746 said:

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:I think a reducing CD the longer you are in combat could work. 15s first burst, 12s next, 9, 6, etc.

Would that be an easy thing to implement though?

The difficulty of a solution isn't something a consumer needs or should be concerned about. Consumers are good at identifying problems, not necessarily solutions. I offered one as an example, but it's more likely than a completely separate solution is what would actually be done.

True statement. Would just having a lower CD work best? Players have rotations down to muscle memory and keep track of CDs in their head. I think making Martial Cadence just a flat reduction would work best.

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What about if Soldier focus grants 3 might and 3 stability? Well considering you have to hit the burst to gain those boons and there is cooldown 15 secs I think it make a good stability so it's not monopolized by guardian.I feel like only give 3 might with 15 secs CD is way too weak, easy way let's take a look of Herald, press 1 Facet, Grants might more than 3 all day everyday as long as the facet not consumed.

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  • 3 months later...

@RedShark.9548 said:All those traits being reliant on hitting bursts make them unreliable anyways.I wouldnt want them to put more into that and nerfing something else in return.

Yet, being reliant on hitting with a burst attack is self balancing. Blind shuts it all down. With that in mind it would not be out of line to reduce the CD on Soldier's Focus and its related traits. Even no CD would be fine since they all rely on hitting with Bursts, which have their own CDs and can be shut down easily.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"RedShark.9548" said:All those traits being reliant on hitting bursts make them unreliable anyways.I wouldnt want them to put more into that and nerfing something else in return.

Yet, being reliant on hitting with a burst attack is self balancing. Blind shuts it all down. With that in mind it would not be out of line to reduce the CD on Soldier's Focus and its related traits. Even no CD would be fine since they all rely on hitting with Bursts, which have their own CDs and can be shut down easily.

Yea, but putting more stuff into those traits, that are so easily shut down makes them unreliable, for example that heal on it... "oh i need to heal my group, better hit that f1 burst, nevermind i got blinded, have to rebuild adrenalin, wait for cd or swap weapon, or my group is already dead when im done, yay"

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:All those traits being reliant on hitting bursts make them unreliable anyways.I wouldnt want them to put more into that and nerfing something else in return.

Yet, being reliant on hitting with a burst attack is self balancing. Blind shuts it all down. With that in mind it would not be out of line to reduce the CD on Soldier's Focus and its related traits. Even no CD would be fine since they all rely on hitting with Bursts, which have their own CDs and can be shut down easily.

Yea, but putting more stuff into those traits, that are so easily shut down makes them unreliable, for example that heal on it... "oh i need to heal my group, better hit that f1 burst, nevermind i got blinded, have to rebuild adrenalin, wait for cd or swap weapon, or my group is already dead when im done, yay"

Hey, even you carry SiO. Use it before the burst hits. GG no blind and the heal hits. That only works so many times granted, but it is a way. Sight Beyond Sight would be another way, but then you're taking SBS instead of something better.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:All those traits being reliant on hitting bursts make them unreliable anyways.I wouldnt want them to put more into that and nerfing something else in return.

Yet, being reliant on hitting with a burst attack is self balancing. Blind shuts it all down. With that in mind it would not be out of line to reduce the CD on Soldier's Focus and its related traits. Even no CD would be fine since they all rely on hitting with Bursts, which have their own CDs and can be shut down easily.

Yea, but putting more stuff into those traits, that are so easily shut down makes them unreliable, for example that heal on it... "oh i need to heal my group, better hit that f1 burst, nevermind i got blinded, have to rebuild adrenalin, wait for cd or swap weapon, or my group is already dead when im done, yay"

Hey, even you carry SiO. Use it before the burst hits. GG no blind and the heal hits. That only works so many times granted, but it is a way. Sight Beyond Sight would be another way, but then you're taking SBS instead of something better.

I sometimes do that, but it still doesnt guarantee the hit and needed heal for your group, they can still dodge, block or just cc you in your animation. Anything that needs a specific interaction with an enemy is unreliable.

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:All those traits being reliant on hitting bursts make them unreliable anyways.I wouldnt want them to put more into that and nerfing something else in return.

Yet, being reliant on hitting with a burst attack is self balancing. Blind shuts it all down. With that in mind it would not be out of line to reduce the CD on Soldier's Focus and its related traits. Even no CD would be fine since they all rely on hitting with Bursts, which have their own CDs and can be shut down easily.

Yea, but putting more stuff into those traits, that are so easily shut down makes them unreliable, for example that heal on it... "oh i need to heal my group, better hit that f1 burst, nevermind i got blinded, have to rebuild adrenalin, wait for cd or swap weapon, or my group is already dead when im done, yay"

Hey, even you carry SiO. Use it before the burst hits. GG no blind and the heal hits. That only works so many times granted, but it is a way. Sight Beyond Sight would be another way, but then you're taking SBS instead of something better.

I sometimes do that, but it still doesnt guarantee the hit and needed heal for your group, they can still dodge, block or just cc you in your animation. Anything that needs a specific interaction with an enemy is unreliable.

That is still my point. Given this fact they severely under tuned Soldier's Focus and its reliant traits.

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  • 1 year later...

Soldier's Focus was buffed a WHOPPING 50% this patch, and I'm still very confident that it (and associated traits) are awful. I don't understand how this exists in the same world as Staff Mirage putting out 8 stacks of 15s Might for 10 people with no investment. It's insulting. 

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2 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Soldier's Focus was buffed a WHOPPING 50% this patch, and I'm still very confident that it (and associated traits) are awful. I don't understand how this exists in the same world as Staff Mirage putting out 8 stacks of 15s Might for 10 people with no investment. It's insulting. 

Its the sum of the traits that depend on Marching Orders' CD that needs to be considered.

 

What would be best is for there to be NO CD on it, so that every Burst gives those 3 might stacks in an AoE, and THEN give CDs to things like Soldier's Comfort and Martial Cadence.

 

In fact what might be best is for Empower Allies to further reduce the current CD of Marching Orders, either directly or based on a condition to be met such as when you dodge or use a heal or elite skill.

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