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Shadow in the ice end is too weird (LS5 ep2 - Heavy spoilers)


ugrakarma.9416

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Bangar is too dumbed down, one thing is being blind by ambition, one thing is being "cursed", but hes gotta enough evidence that he cant be turn into "jormag champion" without pay a price, and still insists on that path, even worse, hes smart for everything except this.

Its seems they wrapped all female characters into Crecia, shes too worried about the commander when he fall, her reaction its like if shes was kasmeer, jory or Taimi.

Braham turned into wolf, and supossely spanked them, and they just gone? so the brave charr just run? the enraged norm let they go? he even didnt get his bow back? its just like a parent discipline a child and "now u can go i have slaped u alredy enough".

Bangar tried to kill commander, and when commander woke up, he just "its all ok, nothing happened" then Aurene says "let us just sit and watch whats coming next"... what??

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While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

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Bangar's a paranoid maniac. He was getting old and more mentally ill even before Jormag started corrupting him. Now, as the Kodan put it, "his voice is not his own". It's not stupidity, it's total mental takeover by Jormag. I don't think his behavior is off, considering how deeply corrupted/mentally ill he is.

Uhhh... this just confuses me. Like.... no? Crecia is Crecia. I don't get what point you're trying to make, but I think it's totally off.

Yeah that is strange, but I think the key here is 'be patient'. We'll get the details of this in the next release.

Pretty much the same answer as #3. They could've concluded this episode a little more smoothly, and thought about the way they portrayed things a little more carefully, but honestly, I imagine the beginning of Ep 3 is going to explain 'what happened when Commander passed out'

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The ending for them to not talk about it is the classic "Say nothing happened to hide the horrible thing that happened" plot.From the sound of things I think Rytlock's "cub" may have lost a arm or a Eye or both when Braham wevnt complete Berserk Wolf on them.

It was certainly a on the moment must act then ask question later thing since the Commander was bleeding out fast and they did not have time to stop braham's berserk state from probably what I am assuming sounded like Braham ripping off Ryland's arm.

Still it is a slow process but Braham is learning and at least facing his mistakes that took him until now to finally try to make up for unlike other characters who never try to get better nor accept the fact they are a "pain in the butt"

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

This isn't what happened, though.

That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

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I dont understand how a simple arrow shot was enough to almost kill the commander.

Yes its a magic bow but come on!

Remember when we got send flying a few hundred meters and smash full force into a wall from kralks attack?

The commander had some broken bones at most but thats it.

Some old charr with a magic bow is now on the same level as balthazar in PoF?

And how the frick did they get away after braham got his ssj transformation?

Braham still useless as ever huh?

The fact that both charr made it out alive pisses me off to the 10th level.

Dont care if it brings a war wirh the charr or hurts mr flame sword.

Both will be dead by the end of the saga.

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

This isn't what happened, though.

That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

I did forget him mentioning the voices taking his troops. I was really hoping to get more background on the spirits of the wild, but it feels like all of the lore is getting replaced with Braham, Braham, Braham. Wonder where we'll be going next anyway now that we're waiting on Bangar to make a move first.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

This isn't what happened, though.

That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

I did forget him mentioning the voices taking his troops. I was really hoping to get more background on the spirits of the wild, but it feels like all of the lore is getting replaced with Braham, Braham, Braham. Wonder where we'll be going next anyway now that we're waiting on Bangar to make a move first.

I expect the next location will be more into the Charr Region since we know now Bangar will move to get more charr to support him with his Propaganda supporting him.

What better place to get it than in Blood Legion territory.

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

This isn't what happened, though.

That weird realm is the commander's psyche. The doppelganger wins = Jormag's whispers become too much to resist. Bangar explicitly stated he came down to kill the champion for propaganda reasons, AND to get rid of a detrimental force that's affecting his soldiers. Jormag's building up a weak point in our heads, which is our hate/dislike towards Bangar, in order to slowly coerce us.

The spirits you're right about. Too little information. Too convenient.

I did forget him mentioning the voices taking his troops. I was really hoping to get more background on the spirits of the wild, but it feels like all of the lore is getting replaced with Braham, Braham, Braham. Wonder where we'll be going next anyway now that we're waiting on Bangar to make a move first.

I expect the next location will be more into the Charr Region since we know now Bangar will move to get more charr to support him with his Propaganda supporting him.

What better place to get it than in Blood Legion territory.

Yes I think we are moving to Chart lands for the next episode or two now

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Maybe, but why would we need to go anywhere new Charr related? His seat of power is in Grothmar and that's where the legions have already established as a meeting ground.

I suppose we could pull the flame legion into it as that could be Bangar's way of gaining some sort of power against Jormag, but aren't most of the flame legion already in... what's the vanilla zone where the dungeon's at? lol

I suppose there's also the burning forest and some possible incentive to go there to retrieve some useful weapon against Jormag related to the titans?

Some incentive from Rhytlock to attempt to end the Foefire in an attempt to divert attention away from Bangar and his current plans? To establish himself or someone else as the Khan-ur or something? I honestly have no clue about Charr politics.

I don't think there were any centaur in that area in Guild Wars 1, but during the teaser at Pax we did see a heavily wooded area with centaur and human slaves. I doubt that's in the Charr lands due to neither really being in that region, but who knows what could have happened in the time since.

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:I dont understand how a simple arrow shot was enough to almost kill the commander.

Yes its a magic bow but come on!

Remember when we got send flying a few hundred meters and smash full force into a wall from kralks attack?

The commander had some broken bones at most but thats it.

Some old charr with a magic bow is now on the same level as balthazar in PoF?

And how the frick did they get away after braham got his ssj transformation?

Braham still useless as ever huh?

The fact that both charr made it out alive pisses me off to the 10th level.

Dont care if it brings a war wirh the charr or hurts mr flame sword.

Both will be dead by the end of the saga.

As to this, I guess because we were already incapacitated by the Whisper and Jormag. I'll have to replay it again but it seemed like he shot us while we were communing with Jormag and that arrow is what interrupted it. So in a sense, even if he shot and severely injured us he sort of saved our sanity? I don't know. It's all pretty fuzzy so I'll probably play through it again real quick. Either way though, we did just fight an elder dragon champion and Rhytlock and Crecia. Where as with Balthazar we fought him and only him, the second time with Aurene's help.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:

  • Bangar is too dumbed down, one thing is being blind by ambition, one thing is being "cursed", but hes gotta enough evidence that he cant be turn into "jormag champion" without pay a price, and still insists on that path, even worse, hes smart for everything except this.Jormag's whispering to Bangar, since before the Icebrood Saga began, as confirmed by devs (the Icebrood Saga trailer was Jormag talking to Bangar) this has obviously messed with his thinking.

  • Its seems they wrapped all female characters into Crecia, shes too worried about the commander when he fall, her reaction its like if shes was kasmeer, jory or Taimi.Keep in mind she'd been defending Bangar and his actions the entire time. So the moment Bangar just ups and shoots the Commander without warning is a huge slap in the face of "I can no longer deny he's gone mad". I saw Crecia's reaction less concern for the Commander and more being in a state of shock and trying to do something, anything, to avoid conflict.

  • Braham turned into wolf, and supossely spanked them, and they just gone? so the brave charr just run? the enraged norm let they go? he even didnt get his bow back? its just like a parent discipline a child and "now u can go i have slaped u alredy enough".If nornwolf Braham proved too strong for them to easily take down, then a tactical retreat makes sense. Braham isn't their target, so why take a risky battle? The charr are more than just "brave", they're tactical.

  • Bangar tried to kill commander, and when commander woke up, he just "its all ok, nothing happened" then Aurene says "let us just sit and watch whats coming next"... what??That's not what happened at all. If you talk further with Aurene, she states that killing Bangar would change nothing, because he's just a small piece of the puzzle (or "one thread among many" as she puts it). They know they need to stop Bangar, but what can be done? Chase them down as they have been? Proved useful. Say "no, I killed Drakkar!"? that's just he's said, she said arguments and is pointless to make (also childish). Plus the Commander still has to recover from that attack - I doubt they were instantly healed.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."Jormag's not exactly on a time table mortals are. And their "wanting to talk" is 99.9% likely to be tricks and traps. Plus it's not like Jormag went "bye", the 'piece of them' was destroyed.

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?Issue of using generic terminology for something specific. The Spirits aren't dragon minions, they were turned, persuaded, under force by Jormag, like all of Jormag's followers initially are. It would seem that Spirits of the Wild cannot be corrupted into dragon minions, thus unlike dragon minions they could be convinced to not follow Jormag - they still had free will, in other words, much like Mordrem Guard.

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?Depends on if the spirits continue to back Jormag or if they just back Braham from hereon. Hard to say. It could go either way ArenaNet wants.

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lolMakes some degree of sense - nature spirits are the proginators and source of their species - when Owl died, all owls suffered, and Minotaur is literally called the "granddaddy of all minotaurs" implying that first came the spirits, then the races. Norn and kodan lore also postulates that all things have nature spirits tied to them.

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:I dont understand how a simple arrow shot was enough to almost kill the commander.

Yes its a magic bow but come on!

Remember when we got send flying a few hundred meters and smash full force into a wall from kralks attack?

The commander had some broken bones at most but thats it.Quite a bit more than broken bones, and doesn't really matter. A burning arrow to the chest is still a fucking burning arrow to the chest. Even the strongest body builder in the world can succumb to a single knife wound.

Besides, we were also exhausted from:

  1. Fighting icebrood
  2. Fighting Drakkar
  3. Getting burned by Sohothin, which can slay a demigod.
  4. Battling Jormag's avatar
  5. And then finally being pierced by a burning arrow capable of piercing Elder Dragon hide.

And how the frick did they get away after braham got his ssj transformation?

Braham still useless as ever huh?

The fact that both charr made it out alive pisses me off to the 10th level.I somehow doubt that Ryland made it out unscatched, and keep in mind Braham would have prioritized the Commander's safety, so whether Braham left them or they ran, once they separated from the Commander he wouldn't chase.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Maybe, but why would we need to go anywhere new Charr related? His seat of power is in Grothmar and that's where the legions have already established as a meeting ground.Blood Keep != Blood Citadel, which is Bangar's seat of power. We still don't quite know where the Blood Citadel is.

Blood Keep is merely a waystation guarding the pass between the Far Shiverpeaks and the Blood Legion territories.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:I dont understand how a simple arrow shot was enough to almost kill the commander.

Yes its a magic bow but come on!

Remember when we got send flying a few hundred meters and smash full force into a wall from kralks attack?

The commander had some broken bones at most but thats it.

Some old charr with a magic bow is now on the same level as balthazar in PoF?

And how the frick did they get away after braham got his ssj transformation?

Braham still useless as ever huh?

The fact that both charr made it out alive pisses me off to the 10th level.

Dont care if it brings a war wirh the charr or hurts mr flame sword.

Both will be dead by the end of the saga.

As to this, I guess because we were already incapacitated by the Whisper and Jormag. I'll have to replay it again but it seemed like he shot us while we were communing with Jormag and that arrow is what interrupted it. So in a sense, even if he shot and severely injured us he sort of saved our sanity? I don't know. It's all pretty fuzzy so I'll probably play through it again real quick. Either way though, we did just fight an elder dragon champion and Rhytlock and Crecia. Where as with Balthazar we fought him and only him, the second time with Aurene's help.

What i found interesting after replaying the episode.

Jormag tells Crecia and Rhytlock that the commander would kill ryland and banger , which we ofc deny.

But i was fully ready to down both of them right there.

And who knows what would have happend if the arrow mist or something.

Jormag was not that far of here.

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I think the entire Shadow in the Ice plot was written out of a bullet point format.

The story, while was kinda fine, had a very very weird pacing.

It felt like they were squeezing two Episode's worth of story into one Episode, which made me not enjoy it so much.

Braham kind of gave me the vibe that he "grew too fast" especially since he was still being a little dingdong not long ago. No one changes this fast.

Jormag tries to be mysterious while contradicting himself/herself.Let's talk. No Let's fight. Let's talk while fighting. Nah nah, let's talk while yur killing my mouthpiece. Nah let's talk later. (what the flying f)

Bangar suddenly shows up being all "THIS WAS THE PLAN THE WHOLE TIME!" and commits kill stealing.

The only thing which seem correctly paced was the internal conflict between Rythlock and Crecia, and that wasn't even the focus of the episode.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:I think the entire Shadow in the Ice plot was written out of a bullet point format.

The story, while was kinda fine, had a very very weird pacing.

It felt like they were squeezing two Episode's worth of story into one Episode, which made me not enjoy it so much.You just described the narrative's pacing since Season 2, if not all of GW2.

Jormag tries to be mysterious while contradicting himself/herself.Let's talk. No Let's fight. Let's talk while fighting. Nah nah, let's talk while yur killing my mouthpiece. Nah let's talk later. (what the flying f)Jormag never wants to fight, but is willing to. Jormag's just been trying to talk, but keep in mind, Jormag's a pathological liar - to Jormag, "talking" is "persuading", and deals seem to be temporary (Jormag moved south, despite promising Asgeir they wouldn't).

Bangar suddenly shows up being all "THIS WAS THE PLAN THE WHOLE TIME!" and commits kill stealing.That wasn't really the case. Bangar states that the whispers had been taking his soldiers, so he redirected (without his army) towards Drakkar to kill it and end the whispers. He's smart enough to realize that the situation presents an opportunity for his own making, and with losing members of his army, he needs to re-bolster his forces.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:what??

Here's the thing: I don't think Jormag is the Dragon of Lies like everyone has been treating it. They're the dragon of Chaos.

Consider this... Some NPCs are being told what they want to hear. Some are being shown what they fear. Some are being tricked into doing things they didn't want. Some are obsessing over finding answers they already know. Some are having long-buried pain brought to the fore. Some have been given hope of reversing their bad fortunes. Some have blinded by desires. Some are having their desires used to undermine their confidence.

As a result everyone is either working at odds or not working together at all

Think of how running down a tunnel to face down a dragon lieutenant is a day that ends in a "y" for the Commander but they were in no way in control of the situation this time. Everything has been continually going pear-shaped for them since they arrived in Grothmar, but the Commander hasn't actually been doing anything different from their norm. . Everything fell apart for the Commander until Aurene stepped in.

The theme of "things aren't what they seem at first glance" was front and center in the announcement trailer and it has been an ongoing theme in all three installments thus far. This is also why I suspect Braham's power-up isn't what it seems. It came way too easily.

Obviously I could be wrong and the pissbabies' theory that devs are just making it up as they go along and hoping things work themselves out in the end might be right. Either way the story is being presented in drips and drops and it seems like something that will only be clear with the power of hindsight.

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I think Braham's transformation is intentionally left in the dark. By the sounds of it he definitely crippled Ryland, but the protest of Crecia and Rytlock put an end to it before he died. I'm sure they would have stopped him from killing their cub.

Personally I liked the ending. Seeing Aurene was beautiful, but the dialogue was missing a lot of parts I would have liked to hear. Everybody just waiting there like nothing ever happened felt weird.

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:So just out of curiosity, is the ending different if you lose or win the fight against Jormag's Shadow clone of yourself?

I heard people talking about the Commander hearing voices in their ending but I won my battle so I did not hear any voices in my ending.

No idea, but I might try it out seeing as Braham isn't in there to rez me.

I did let it beat on me for like 10 minutes at various health percentages hoping it would have more to say, but it didn't.

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I really loved the ending, and folks have already clarified the counter points I would have made but I am confused about exactly how Aurene lead them to the Eye of the North. I actually totally missed that the doppelganger fight was the commander succumbing to the whispers, but that's brilliant.

Firstly, Jhavi was not with them when Bangar shot the Commander, but she is with them when the commander wakes up, implying that they didn't go straight from Jaga Moraine to the Eye of the North. I find it hard to believe that they walked with a wounded commander half way across the Far Shiverpeaks. Did Aurene create a portal? Did they get a sweet dragon ride?

I appreciate the narrative beat of glossing over it, because seeing the EotN loading screen out of no where and then BOOM hello Aurene was a delight, but I'd have loved some clarity.

And also ... who fixed the floor in the main chamber of the EotN?

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@"Amaren.9326" said:I really loved the ending, and folks have already clarified the counter points I would have made but I am confused about exactly how Aurene lead them to the Eye of the North. I actually totally missed that the doppelganger fight was the commander succumbing to the whispers, but that's brilliant.

the dialogue is vague but suggest that Aurene "guided"(some vision?) the crew in some way.

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I liked the ending, but the setup for Bangar's next move seems kinda forced. After all, who would most of Tyria believe, the PC who's helped save the world countless times and helped everyone along the way, or Bangar, who's known for being manipulative and not that great of a guy. Even if Bangar and/or the renegades decide to start a war, they're still way outnumbered, both militarily and in numbers, by Aurene, the rest of the races, the Charr against him (many of the Legion leaders already seem to favor the PC), and the Pact, who have probably largely recovered from Kralk by now. Unless Bangar manages to somehow free and summon Jormag to his side, I don't see him and his supporters as having much of a chance at having a large scale conquest.

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@Poormany.4507 said:I liked the ending, but the setup for Bangar's next move seems kinda forced. After all, who would most of Tyria believe, the PC who's helped save the world countless times and helped everyone along the way, or Bangar, who's known for being manipulative and not that great of a guy. Even if Bangar and/or the renegades decide to start a war, they're still way outnumbered, both militarily and in numbers, by Aurene, the rest of the races, the Charr against him (many of the Legion leaders already seem to favor the PC), and the Pact, who have probably largely recovered from Kralk by now. Unless Bangar manages to somehow free and summon Jormag to his side, I don't see him and his supporters as having much of a chance at having a large scale conquest.

I don't think Aurene would step in on something like that. I think she would sit it out for the sake of maintaining her reputation. She may help us recover, or empower us some way, but I don't think she would go around nuking people with crystal breath.But I agree. I guess our reputation may not hold up as strong against Bangar with some of the less-informed Charr legions though. They may not even care about our deeds due to their culture.

It is pretty dumb though, that Bangar's play is convincing the legions to follow him because he killed a dragon champion. Versus us, who have killed 3 actual elder dragons, a fallen human deity, numerous dragon champions, and have an elder dragon on our side. It's a pretty weak selling point to us, the players. I'm not sure what it would take to justify it being reasonable motive for the Charr legions.

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