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What are "casual" and "hardcore" in GW2?


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I created this thread because there seems to be a common misunderstanding that says casual equals poor skills (or something not quite so demeaning). By the same token, there's another misunderstanding that hardcore means elitist or vicious. Neither is true in Guild Wars 2.

This thread is created so we can help each other understand each other. Please keep any discussion civil. For THIS thread, it really doesn't matter which group is more numerous. Just discuss what the terms mean to you, and also your perspective as to what they mean to the rest of the player base.

(I envision this thread being something we can point to whenever there's a discussion on other threads about the differences.)

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In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled yet - he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

...

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

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@"Daddicus.6128" said:In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled
yet
- he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

By your definition, the first player is a hardcore, and the second one is a casual. By my point of view (and probably by the point of view of a lot of people), it's exactly the opposite.

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

This definition should be rewarded with a sticky, so that such conversations may never occur again.

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Well, in my own definition it depends on the hours they invest into the game. Casuals don't invest a lot of time, hardcore people do.That said, there are only a few hardcore people around, most people that call themselves hardcore aren't.Skill level and what kind of content they play doesn't really matter, as long as they are invested.

Someone that PvP all day, every day would be hardcore.Someone that only logs in once a week to raid for 5-7h wouldn't be hardcore by my definition, that's even more casual than a lot of people.

Edit: E.g. someone like Asmongold in WoW is hardcore, even though he didn't clear mythic raids

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All the hardcore people left long ago because Anet made it clear that we werent wanted. They destroyed wvw and spvp over this by removing team queue. Raids are dead because the community refuses to learn them and will cry if anet add more. In the week and a half i have returned even FoTM isnt what its supposed to be i barely cleared T4s and i couldnt get any CMs done.

They have mostly left i was hardcore when i did play and i would be again but so far it seems in the 2 years i was gonna they have only doubled down in tha philosophy thus further alienating that sector of the player base.

Just my 2 cents so far.

Regarding your question a hardcore player isnt about time spent but the skill that they have the aptitude to get what they want. A casual can play 10 hours a week and accomplish nothing a hardcore can play 5 hours a week and accomplish everything. Best example there are plenty of pvpers who are great who do not play more hours then casual silver ranked people and yet the silver ranked would play more.

Another good example is a fightning game you and I could have 300 hours of play time but if you chose to play spend that time casually and no labbing punishment and combos and counter hit attacks and i Did spend time doing that I am going to crush you.

Edited For clarity.

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I guess I would ask: Why does it matter?

We all have our opinion of what each is, and consensus is difficult to come by, and quite useless in fact.

Other than being able to say:‘Dude, everyone says your a casual and I have a thread to prove it!’

Or‘I am a hardcore!!! Bow to my greatness!!’

It’s kinda pointless..

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@"Daddicus.6128" said:In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled
yet
- he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

...

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Only thing I'd add is there's possibly a time component - hardcore players generally spend more time on average playing their chosen game/s than casuals, but I think you'd have a tough time putting exact numbers on it because there's so many other factors.

But for example I definitely consider myself a casual player. I've been playing GW2 since release (or since the first public beta if you want to count that), I've played every single profession at least a bit, I've got a character in full ascended, have completed loads of stuff in-game and have played at least a bit of every game mode. But every so often I'll click on a topic on this forum with a title like "new player looking for advice" and I can't even understand the questions they're asking! I'm not even sure what some of the words mean in the context of GW2. They've had the game for a week or two and already they're asking about the specifics of the maths behind how stats work and technicalities I didn't even know exist, but are apparently fundamental to playing with any kind of competence.

It doesn't matter how long we've been playing, those people are much more hardcore GW2 players than I'll ever be.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:I guess I would ask: Why does it matter?

We all have our opinion of what each is, and consensus is difficult to come by, and quite useless in fact.

Other than being able to say:‘Dude, everyone says your a casual and I have a thread to prove it!’

Or‘I am a hardcore!!! Bow to my greatness!!’

It’s kinda pointless..

This is kinda important for Guild Wars 2 in particularly shortly after HoT launch Anet had to make a choice, there were plenty of players crying they couldnt traverse the world say it was too hard and plenty of players saying its lvl 80 expansion content its supposed to be hard. Anet made a choice then to nerf all of HoTs and when PoF came out you could tell that the HoTs choice weighed in on PoF.

And sPvP and WvW was utterly destroyed by the position anet took against hardcore people and for casuals if this game design direction was ruled so much by this divide i'd agree with you but it is. Time and time anet has proven this from pvp to raids to the nerfing of HoTs.

Let me add this note anet also refused to add new raids because of this they didnt want to get the community of casuals mad about content they couldnt enter even tho they had no intentions of entering just like pvp. Anet is ruled by this design philosophy even if the playerbase with in that sector of the game does not want such decisions being made.

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@Danikat.8537 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:In another thread (
), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled
yet
- he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

...

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Only thing I'd add is there's possibly a time component - hardcore players generally spend more time on average playing their chosen game/s than casuals, but I think you'd have a tough time putting exact numbers on it because there's so many other factors.

But for example I definitely consider myself a casual player. I've been playing GW2 since release (or since the first public beta if you want to count that), I've played every single profession at least a bit, I've got a character in full ascended, have completed loads of stuff in-game and have played at least a bit of every game mode. But every so often I'll click on a topic on this forum with a title like "new player looking for advice" and I can't even understand the questions they're asking! I'm not even sure what some of the words mean in the context of GW2. They've had the game for a week or two and already they're asking about the specifics of the maths behind how stats work and technicalities I didn't even know exist, but are apparently fundamental to playing with any kind of competence.

It doesn't matter how long we've been playing, those people are much more hardcore GW2 players than I'll ever be.

Time has been and always be an excuse for people who dont have talent.A casual and a hardcore player can spend 10 hours in one week and accomplish very different things. It's knowledge and skill that's always seperated us. You can say knowledge and skill come with time i can say thats true, but i can also say if your a mmo veteran like me with a full time job you just understand better how to spend your time and you end up accomplishing more in the same amount of time a casual does.

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@"Daddicus.6128" said:In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled
yet
- he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

...

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

The examples given are kind of strawmen, but I share the sentiment that it's attitude that makes the difference.

I often see the "play for fun" statement used in a way that implies other people are not playing for fun. I get tired of the supposition that "play for fun" is the opposite of playing to be effective or proving yourself or being challenged. A lot of people find fun in figuring out how to "play to win". The "other person" that "barely starting playing and is still unskilled" is also having fun learning the game. Maybe need a different phrase from "play for fun", like "plays for the sights and sounds" or "the tourist".

@Strider Pj.2193 said:I guess I would ask: Why does it matter?

Introduce any sort of group or team content and suddenly the dude playing for the sights and sounds is the fullback running around the field, out of position, acting like a clown while the other team is taking the ball to the goal. That may be fun for the fullback, but not for anyone else on the team. It's a type of anti-social behavior.

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I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an asshole towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

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@"Cynder.2509" said:I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

What good old days are you talking about?I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:In another thread (
), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled
yet
- he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

...

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Only thing I'd add is there's possibly a time component - hardcore players generally spend more time on average playing their chosen game/s than casuals, but I think you'd have a tough time putting exact numbers on it because there's so many other factors.

But for example I definitely consider myself a casual player. I've been playing GW2 since release (or since the first public beta if you want to count that), I've played every single profession at least a bit, I've got a character in full ascended, have completed loads of stuff in-game and have played at least a bit of every game mode. But every so often I'll click on a topic on this forum with a title like "new player looking for advice" and I can't even understand the questions they're asking! I'm not even sure what some of the words mean in the context of GW2. They've had the game for a week or two and already they're asking about the specifics of the maths behind how stats work and technicalities I didn't even know exist, but are apparently fundamental to playing with any kind of competence.

It doesn't matter how long we've been playing, those people are much more hardcore GW2 players than I'll ever be.

Time has been and always be an excuse for people who dont have talent.A casual and a hardcore player can spend 10 hours in one week and accomplish very different things. It's knowledge and skill that's always seperated us. You can say knowledge and skill come with time i can say thats true, but i can also say if your a mmo veteran like me with a full time job you just understand better how to spend your time and you end up accomplishing more in the same amount of time a casual does.

All I meant is that hardcore players will typically choose to spend more time playing one game, in addition to learning more about how it works and approaching it differently. Not that the only difference is they spend more time on it.

When I first started playing Ultima Online I was really confused by people telling me you could max a skill in a day because I'd spend an hour or so doing it and make barely any progress. It took me a long time to understand that when they said a day they didn't mean what I considered a normal amount of time to play in one day, they meant playing for 8+ hours in one day, because it would never have occured to me to do that.

I'll sometimes play GW2 for 4 hours over the course of a day if I don't have much else to do, but any more than that and I get bored and want to do something else instead. For other people 4 hours is what they do on a weeknight when they don't have much time and just want to get through a few basic things like dailies and meta events they do all the time.

It's a different measurement to how players understand and approach the game, but I think it's one which needs to be included as well.

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Cynder.2509" said:I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

What gold old days are you talking about?I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@"Cynder.2509" said:I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

What gold old days are you talking about?I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Cynder.2509" said:I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

What gold old days are you talking about?I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

People grinded resistances because they were bad. How come MC was cleared so fast in Classic?AQ40 and BWL was easy. Naxx wasn't cleared by a lot because BC release was just a few months away.

Choosing a good specc =/= min maxxing.

Taking a leather wrist piece as plate-wearer because it results in more dps is min-maxing. Something that was done in WotLK for example.

Edit: BWL will most likely be a day 1 clear once it releases during Classic, because people actually min/maxxed for that.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@"Cynder.2509" said:I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

What gold old days are you talking about?I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

People grinded resistances because they were bad. How come MC was cleared so fast in Classic?AQ40 and BWL was easy. Naxx wasn't cleared by a lot because BC release was just a few months away.

Choosing a good specc =/= min maxxing.

Taking a leather wrist piece as plate-wearer because it results in more dps is min-maxing. Something that was done in WotLK for example.

I guess thats fair. Still WoW was far more rigid compared to mmos today and people did check builds and feral druids and arms warriors were locked out of raiding till tbc. But i ceede to that point. I assume you haven't played the other mmos i've listed?

AQ40 and Naxx wasnt easy...

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@Genesis.5169 said:

@"Cynder.2509" said:I'm just sad that nobody plays games in general just for fun and enjoyment anymore. What happened to the old days when people actually enjoyed playing games and saw them as a way of relaxation? Why does everything have to be competitive these days? Why can't we all be nicer to eachother? This and a few other reasons are mainly why i like the time when the majority of games was singleplayer and the only co-op was on the couch. Even back then there were online games but nobody (or at least not everyone) was acting like an kitten towards others.Anyways, why is "casual" a bad thing? Not everyone can sink their entire life into a game. Some people still have a real life. I know plenty of people who played the game since launch and are being badly treated by "hardcore" players. Also I hate that you have to be a showoff to validate yourself these days or others might mistake you for something else despite playing for 7 years and not chose to cluster your characters with legendaries, other prestige items and infusion stacking.Just let people enjoy the game and not make assumptions about anyone based on what you see. You may never know the actual truth behind everyone. Even new players should feel "safe" and veterans should try to reach out and actually help new players instead of being rude towards them. That and many other things will lead to a healthy community which will spread outside of the game so that eventually more people will join and it will become bigger which would help Arenanet.I don't know, but I remember the community actually being much more friendly than it is nowadays. I know there were unfriendly ones even before HoT with the dungeon "elitism" and such but it was never as bad as things are today.Just let's have a nice time together.

What gold old days are you talking about?I remember WoW, Lineage 1 and 2, Aion and Rappelz being 20times more rigid then mmos on the market with well defined goals that you had to group and min/max to get anywhere man lets stop lying about things in the past you make great valid points everywhere else but that.

Don't elude to knowing something you clearly know nothing about, but again every other point you made is right.

Old WoW Raids were never hard, people didn't min/max to do them. Min/maxing wasn't huge back then in WoW, that's why Classic raids are dying so fast. They even took people that weren't max lvl for the Classic world first MC, because the raids are barely difficult.

Next your gonna tell me people didnt have to grind resistances for MC BWL AND AQ.AQ40 and NAX40 and BWL was easy.And people allowed feral druids and arms warriors in raids back then.

People grinded resistances because they were bad. How come MC was cleared so fast in Classic?AQ40 and BWL was easy. Naxx wasn't cleared by a lot because BC release was just a few months away.

Choosing a good specc =/= min maxxing.

Taking a leather wrist piece as plate-wearer because it results in more dps is min-maxing. Something that was done in WotLK for example.

I guess thats fair. Still WoW was far more rigid compared to mmos today and people did check builds and feral druids and arms warriors were locked out of raiding till tbc. But i ceede to that point. I assume you haven't played the other mmos i've listed?

AQ40 and Naxx wasnt easy...

Just played a little bit of Rappelz and Aion, nothing endgame wise. Lock outs to certain classes always happen if the data to min/maxx isn't there. Same thing happened during GW2 release and the 4warr/1mesmer groups.

AQ40 was just long, and Naxx wasn't explored by enough people because of BC release and the lack of Tanks during 4Horseman. They will most likely be first day clears by todays standards.

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@"Daddicus.6128" said:In another thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96377/wp-guild-wars-2s-biggest-problems-as-i-see-them), Astralporing gave one of the best examples of casual vs. hardcore I've yet seen:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Casual is not the same as newbie.

Let's give you an example:We have two people. One is a veteran of the game, that played many years, generally knows how to play, and undestands the game mechanics. He never went out of his way to look for that info, though (and, specifically, practically never uses out-of-game sources), nor did he ever thought about, say, spending several hours at the golem practicing his rotations - everything he knows he picked up naturally, by playing the game. And while he may be aware that some builds/playstyles may be better than others, he picks what he plays by what he finds more fun, not what is most effective (and, as such, he is not above playing, say, a bearbow). He plays the game for story and relaxation, and isn't really interested in stuff like "being challenged" or "proving yourself" - he just wants to have fun. He is also blessed with good perception, hand coordination, timing sense, good reactions and the ability to learn fast.The other person barely started playing, and is still very unskilled - but he intends to change that, fast. He intends to skip the story, and go straight for the challenging content, as he thinks that is what playing the game is all about. He is looking through all the build sites, already planning for his endgame gear, knows what classes and builds will be best and is trying to learn them, and constantly practices his skills. He's just not that skilled
yet
- he's way too fresh, and frankly learning anything takes him a lot of time and effort (perhaps his real talents lie outside the game, who knows).

...

It's not your skill at any given moment that makes you a casual or hardcore. It's your playstyle and attitude towards the game that makes the difference.

^This. It's about how seriously you approach the game and not necessarily about how much time you put into it, which content you prefer, or how skilled you are.

For instance, I consider myself a casual player. But I play a lot because GW2 is the only game I play. It's what I spend my time doing that defines me as "casual", in my mind. I mostly do story/open world content and some unranked PvP with my friend who is fairly new to the game. I'm fractal level 98, PvP level 60, WvW rank 1425. The only thing I've barely touched at all is raiding. So, I do a little bit of everything but I've never done anything seriously (e.g. raiding/WvW guilds, fractal T4/speed groups).

In PvP I played 1 ranked season back during HoT. I was new to PvP and did solo queue as a team healer (tempest auramancer), which I'm told is a terrible idea. I did well, though, finishing the season strong in platinum, 300 rating points above my placement after 250 games played. But the rest of my PvP career has been just playing around with my friends/guild and doing dailies in unranked.

In WvW, I achieved my rank by solo roaming. I already knew how to fight a bit from PvP and over the course of hundreds of 1vx roaming battles I learned how to handle myself in a fight quite well in my estimation, but even now I don't really understand how the game mode works and have no idea how to function as part of an organized team.

I can do fractals and raids, but I've never been a big fan of them. So I only go when friends want to do them and we don't worry about meta builds. We just do our best. But back in the day I used to play WoW, where I was a guild leader, raid leader, primarily a player of tanks (main tank, off tank, all classes) but also filled in as tank or raid heals or DPS. Whatever we needed. That was what I would call "hardcore". It's simply not how I play GW2. But I'm still the same player in every other respect!

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You can't just categorize players with 2 labels. Is the guy the spending 30 to 40 hours a week grinding out achievments and legnedary gear casual? I think not, neither Is the dude that exclusively played silverwastes for 5 years to drop a specific shiny, or the player that did nothing but play the market to gt 1 million gold. If you threw these 3 in any other game mode they would be called casual even though they are hard core in their respective field. The player base is as diversified as the alleged gender spectrum.

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Hmm, personally I wouldn't factor time into whether a person is casual or hardcore. I just did an age check and it seems I've played 4,833 hours over the last 790 days, which averages out to a little more than 6 hours a day. Yet I very much consider myself a casual player. To me, the primary difference is attitude, with skill level being a secondary difference. I think of hard core as the folks who enjoy hard, challenging game play as well as enjoying digging into the minutiae of the game to min/max their characters. As a casual player, I'm looking for a relaxing, minimally challenging game when I play. Hardcore players work on honing their skills to the competitive level. Given my age and physical condition, I'm doing good to get my skills up to an average level and I'm fine with that. Different folks enjoy different things. That's just a simple fact of life. To me, the optimum would for GW2 to embrace both the hardcore and the casual players by making content for both. Even better would be introducing difficulty levels, so folks could choose how challenging they want their game to be.

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