Whispers initial thoughts story thread — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Whispers initial thoughts story thread

New patch is out. Normally this is when I'd be the most excited and joyous about the game but this one really didn't do it for me.
Maybe I was too distracted by how much fun the new strike mission is.

After having a day or so to ruminate on the new story patch I've come to these conclusions:

  1. Map is very pretty, devs killed It here as usual.
  2. I'm liking the new crew we have, Rytlock having someone else to talk to besides Canach is really nice, even if I dont totally agree with where his character is going.
    No taimi also helps the stakes and the raw-ness of the story alot I feel, even if I love her.
    3.If you're going to make a meta world boss so long please make it a challange.

This next point is the crux of why I thought this story step was kinda lame.
4. Jormag is an awful villain so far. This whole whispers thing is a cool idea but every thing it says makes it look weaker and less like I want to join it.
What its trying to temp us with is pathetic.
It has nothing to offer the commander and it has nothing to offer the rest of tyria.
Yes. I want to help you and aurean create a peaceful age of tyria.
Let me just send in my death cult to kill all your friends first, that should let you know I really want to help you.
The fact that Rytlock and Crecia fall to this just makes it insulting.

Jormag isnt threatening like kralkatoric was and it's not playing its cards right to be make us not want to fight it like joko did. (Briefly)

Jormag still holds one card In this, "the threats to come" thing so still salvageable but right now Jormag is a complete joke.

  1. Please keep aurene as this perfect character. That was great.

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    I’m fully the opposite. I find Jormags portrayal so far the redeeming feature of each episode. The map did little for me - it just felt like they wasted the space to explore more interesting stories. It was OK to look at, but not their peak map design quality.

    The story itself was mostly functionsk. My main gripes apart from the length were the cheesy Braham/Yoda dialogue at each spirit and how Drakkar could have used more build up. Or at least a better ending than being soloed by Braham. We have had some great Drahon Champ fights in stories before like Shadow of the Dragon. This deserved a better story fight.

    I did like the Norn PC exclusive dialogue and keeping the story focused on this group of npcs. Whilst the open world fight was poor, Joras descendant getting her revenge was a nice touch

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    My line of thought goes along with Randulf's but less extreme. My biggest disappointment was how little focus Drakkar actually got, and how easy it was to convince the Lost Spirits. I really hope they fix this by bringing Drakkar back as Death-Touched and the Lost Spirits deciding to aid Jormag again. Having wishy-washy spirits would make sense, as their nature would be to fight Jormag, but they've been suffering 150 years of seductions by Jormag.

    Drakkar getting so little focus despite being such a big want by vets is a long standing issue with all returning GW1 foes. Lazarus and Dhuum had the same exact issue, and while Joko got more screen time and has definitely been the better of the four, he was lacking too. Drakkar should have been a reoccurring boss across multiple episodes, like Shadow of the Dragon or The (Death-Branded) Shatterer.

    Heck, ANet has a long standing issue of not properly utilizing the concept of reoccurring second-in-command foes; the Herald of Balthazar and Shadow of the Dragon have been the best done so far, and that says quite a lot given they only have 3 appearances in total and die before the second half of the related plots. IF there is such a figure that any good story has, they die in the first encounter in GW2, despite the possibility of several good choices.

    On top of the Shatterer, for example, Season 4 had introduced Dominus Crystallum, a powerful branded wyvern, fairly early in the LW episode, and this guy survives the battle he was introduced in, but never shows up again. Even the Branded Wyvern in Dragonfall that's never fought but randomly attacks players being renamed to Dominus would have been a nice continuity. But instead of doing either, Dominus never shows up, and Episode 5 decided to introduce the Wraithbringer instead of Shatterer as world boss and Shatterer only shows up again as distant, ambient, aesthetics in Dragonfall. They could have even used Chieftain Kronon, who was just a meager bounty instead.

    My other two issues with this plot would be the map lacking any details about the mysteries we had in GW1 - it's all about the kodan and their (over)reaction to Drakkar being a mouthpiece. I don't think the map was bad, I just think it could have been so much better if they had only paid attention to answering some GW1 lore.

    As for Jormag so far - I like it. The way Jormag's written feels like it's hard to tell whether Jormag is honestly just trying to stop fighting while acting in self-defense and has truly free willed minions, or if they're a true conman trying (and so far failing) to trick the Commander.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    My biggest disappointment was how little focus Drakkar actually got,

    I think I could forgive probably everything else I didn't like if they got this and the fight itself nailed to perfection

    As for Jormag so far - I like it. The way Jormag's written feels like it's hard to tell whether Jormag is honestly just trying to stop fighting while acting in self-defense and has truly free willed minions, or if they're a true conman trying (and so far failing) to trick the Commander.

    Agreed. I genuinely can't work out Jormag's endgame. Now it could end up quite anti climatic, but for now it does draw me through this Saga. I haven't got much else to cling to, but this is something I want to see play out. Drakkar's demise seemed almost a game to Jormag at times, so there is clearly a motivation we can't yet understand behind all this. It's very manipulative and there is a great feeling of being in a cosmic chess game. I think they've over achieved on their goal there if nothing else.

    Not being able to comprehend an Elder Dragons motivations is not something they've always got right in GW2. Here at last I feel they on that path

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its seems a recurring problem Anet build-up a proper villain. Joko was going great til its early death.. The Jormag champions seems over-hyped to out they come into mechanics/challenge.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Agreed. I genuinely can't work out Jormag's endgame. Now it could end up quite anti climatic, but for now it does draw me through this Saga. I haven't got much else to cling to, but this is something I want to see play out. Drakkar's demise seemed almost a game to Jormag at times, so there is clearly a motivation we can't yet understand behind all this. It's very manipulative and there is a great feeling of being in a cosmic chess game. I think they've over achieved on their goal there if nothing else.

    i presented this doubt at ep 01, the "jormag strategy" or goals, is quite unclear.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1103736

    a) why commmander need be lured? hes already not going there because of Bangar?
    b) if commander not intended goes after Bangar, why Jormag want bring to there someone who could stop Bangar?

    hipotesis c) Jormag had fear of Bangar and wants Commander to defend itself by causing a "proxy war", but still make no sense, if this is the case its just a matter of let commander do his job that is stop anyone who wants mess up the magic balance of Elder Dragons.

    d) the real fear of Jormag is Aurene? all this mess is just to setup a lure to bring Aurene into the party?

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    I hope Jormag is less about planting lies, like Mordremoth, and more about biasing and twisting truths, to match the described power of persuasion.

    So, lets say Jormag is genuine. Jormag wants to break end cycle, and preserve the world. Well then, my commander can't allow it. Tyria exists at a focal point of balanced magical energies. This cycle exists as a way for magic to rise and fall in balance... Preservation (ice magic?) is but one side of this scale. So I see Jormag offering to preserve the world a threat. A threat to balance, and therefore a threat to what keeps Tyria in place.
    Joko called the commander a agent of chaos and destruction. Well if Jormag is threatening to preserve the world, this commander will gladly balance that out... Someone has to be there when things start getting "preserved" too well. In the mean time Bangar seems to be causing a bunch of chaos himself.

    It is true, that chaos seems to have an upper hand lately, and Jormag could help push things back into order. But Jormag is a dragon, and that kinda of help is liable to push things too far. Being frozen is the same as being ripped apart. Either way it is being not very alive.

  • Would anyone like to talk about the fact that this book exists in the previous chapter, stating that the Norn prophecy about cracking the tooth is lie (and that the spirits of the wild were part of that keeping that lie secret) then, in the next episode, spirit of the wild Wolf is yakking about how Braham is a 'Norn of prophecy'?

    The lore has been contradicting itself really hard within single episodes, too. In the first one, Braham tells us he is a Norn and therefore has to 'do this myself', before immediately asking you to use the Raven mastery to open a door for him. Then, minutes later, Jhavi tells you that the Raven mastery is a power only available to Norn with no explanation for why my character, a Human, was able to use it.

    Also unexplained: Why is Braham a giant ghost when talking to the spirits of the wild? Does he have the power of astral projection? When did he obtain it? Why is he using it instead of accompanying you around the map and 'doing it himself' like he claimed he was going to? Why did Bangar leave without also killing the only people who could discredit his claim of killing Drakkar firsthand? If everyone was incapacitated, who carried the party to Aurene's lair?

    Every single negative thing the spirits accused Braham of were proven to be true during the course of this story, and even when we were shot in the face by Bangar, it was Aurene (an elder dragon!) that remedied the situation, not Braham. Despite all of this, he's depicted as the hero of the day and fully redeemed despite not actually doing much of anything. Feels bad.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    Would anyone like to talk about the fact that this book exists in the previous chapter, stating that the Norn prophecy about cracking the tooth is lie (and that the spirits of the wild were part of that keeping that lie secret)

    If you read carefully, nothing in that book actually says anything about making up a prophecy. The lie was just to cover up that Jormag let Asgeir go, gave up the fang, and suggested the norn move south.

    Asgeir was never credited with foretelling the prophecy of Jormag's defeat.

    That was always attributed to the Spirits of the Wild, or to no one in particular.

    There is also no mention of the Spirits of the Wild in that book.

    So no, this isn't a contradiction in lore.

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    In the first one, Braham tells us he is a Norn and therefore has to 'do this myself', before immediately asking you to use the Raven mastery to open a door for him.

    You're twisting the words. Let's quote shall we:

    The blood they spilled is on my people's hands. I'm norn. It's my duty to make them answer for it.

    Braham never says he must do it alone, just that he must partake in the act. Very huge difference than what you're implying.

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    Then, minutes later, Jhavi tells you that the Raven mastery is a power only available to Norn with no explanation for why my character, a Human, was able to use it.

    She never said that non-norn couldn't use the Raven lens. Hell, she outright states that she and Almorra intended to use them. What she says was norn only was:

    Raven lenses reveal the spirit essence we leave behind—but it only works on norn. I used that to guide you here, to me.

    To make it clear, what she's saying "only works on norn" is "the spirit essence we leave behind", not the spirit lense. This is why the only time we can witness past events via the Raven lens, it shows the actions of norn. Whether it's Jhavi or Asgeir.

    TL;DR - No contradictions, you're misinterpreting and adding hidden meaning where there is none.

    Also unexplained: Why is Braham a giant ghost when talking to the spirits of the wild? Does he have the power of astral projection? When did he obtain it? Why is he using it instead of accompanying you around the map and 'doing it himself' like he claimed he was going to?

    While the projection thing is a bit weird, he never said he would need to go to the spirits by himself - you're now not only misinterpreting, you're trying to associate two wholly unrelated events.

    Why did Bangar leave without also killing the only people who could discredit his claim of killing Drakkar firsthand?

    Because he was literally under assault by a strong norn, and by the sounds of it, Ryland got injured. I would be unsurprised if next time we see him, he has a clawed out eye or something. Furthermore, there is no way for Rytlock, Crecia, and Braham to prove Bangar is lying - it would literally be a he-said-she-said argument, which would only serve him in rallying the charr ("the norn want to take credit for something they could not do in a hundred years!" or something), and the group simply aren't his priority - Jormag and (re)building an army is.

    That's why Bangar left without wiping out the party. Because he was under attack, would gain little from pursuit, had an injured ally, and they were running away.

    If everyone was incapacitated, who carried the party to Aurene's lair?

    Only the Commander was incapacitated. Bangar only shot the Commander. Rytlock, Crecia, and Braham were (largely) unharmed from the event.

    Every single negative thing the spirits accused Braham of were proven to be true during the course of this story, and even when we were shot in the face by Bangar, it was Aurene (an elder dragon!) that remedied the situation, not Braham. Despite all of this, he's depicted as the hero of the day and fully redeemed despite not actually doing much of anything. Feels bad.

    Whoever said Braham is fully redeemed? So far, only you. Who said Aurene remedied any solution? Only you.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There is also no mention of the Spirits of the Wild in that book.

    "Everything I've done, I've done for my people. The Spirits of the Wild saw that. It's why they sent me their aid. Why they helped me slay Frostfang."

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To make it clear, what she's saying "only works on norn" is "the spirit essence we leave behind", not the spirit lense.

    "Raven lenses reveal the spirit essence we leave behind—but it only works on norn" If that is the case, shouldn't it only be a Norn holding a Raven lens that's able to see the essence? Why would a non-Norn player be able to see anything? Shouldn't it have been Braham who points out that they saw something?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While the projection thing is a bit weird, he never said he would need to go to the spirits by himself

    It's still unexplained by the story. My point stands.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Bangar left without wiping out the party. Because he was under attack, would gain little from pursuit, had an injured ally, and they were running away.

    I don't recall seeing Ryland injured, but I do recall the Commander, and both Charr being downed and disoriented by dragon influence. Braham wolfing out might normally be taken as a legitimate threat, but Bangar's just proven he can one-shot the dragon slayer with his rootie tootie point and shootie bow and arrow.

    It still seems odd that he wouldn't just execute the loose ends and move on, and the bow seems like it'd make short work of anyone, given its upgrades and ability to crack the tooth.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Only the Commander was incapacitated. Bangar only shot the Commander. Rytlock, Crecia, and Braham were (largely) unharmed from the event.

    Aside from Braham, everyone else was recovering from having the teeth knocked out of them by the Commander, who was forced to attack them until they were incapacitated. They might have been alert enough to stand when Bangar arrived, but well enough to traverse a blizzard landscape with dead weight in tow? Less plausible.

    I'd appreciate if you were less hostile in your responses. You have a right to disagree with me, but bolding your insults doesn't make them less insulting.

  • @AgentMoore.9453 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There is also no mention of the Spirits of the Wild in that book.

    "Everything I've done, I've done for my people. The Spirits of the Wild saw that. It's why they sent me their aid. Why they helped me slay Frostfang."

    -rollseyes- You completely ignored the entire point just to nitpick? Seriously dude?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To make it clear, what she's saying "only works on norn" is "the spirit essence we leave behind", not the spirit lense.

    "Raven lenses reveal the spirit essence we leave behind—but it only works on norn" If that is the case, shouldn't it only be a Norn holding a Raven lens that's able to see the essence? Why would a non-Norn player be able to see anything? Shouldn't it have been Braham who points out that they saw something?

    Only norn can leave behind spirit essence. It's nothing about who can see it with the use of magical devices that are not in any way sapient.

    Obviously a non-sentient device isn't going to be limited to a specific group.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While the projection thing is a bit weird, he never said he would need to go to the spirits by himself

    It's still unexplained by the story. My point stands.

    The projection? Sure. In your long-winded post that's literally the only thing that still stands.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Bangar left without wiping out the party. Because he was under attack, would gain little from pursuit, had an injured ally, and they were running away.

    I don't recall seeing Ryland injured, but I do recall the Commander, and both Charr being downed and disoriented by dragon influence. Braham wolfing out might normally be taken as a legitimate threat, but Bangar's just proven he can one-shot the dragon slayer with his rootie tootie point and shootie bow and arrow.

    It still seems odd that he wouldn't just execute the loose ends and move on, and the bow seems like it'd make short work of anyone, given its upgrades and ability to crack the tooth.

    The screen fades out the very moment Braham and Ryland clash. But you can hear Ryland scream in pain - not roar in battlerage or whatever, scream in pain. Rytlock and Crecia got back up after the Whisper of Jormag was defeated, winded but not immobilized. Bangar "just proved" nothing really; a fire arrow to the chest is still a fire arrow to the chest, and that doesn't mean that Braham would let himself get shot since Bangar used a surprise attack.

    And ignoring the fact that the group was retreating and Ryland injured, and the group wasn't Bangar's priority, it's also clear that Bangar has plans for Rytlock and Crecia, given the cinematic in Bound By Blood where he taunts Rytlock - if he wanted Rytlock out of the way, he no doubt would have gotten rid of him a long time ago, and he likely wants to avoid killing Crecia to maintain Ryland's loyalty (it wouldn't be a good thing for his new second-in-command to desert because you decided to kill his mom, who was a long standing faithful second-in-command for decades).

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Only the Commander was incapacitated. Bangar only shot the Commander. Rytlock, Crecia, and Braham were (largely) unharmed from the event.

    Aside from Braham, everyone else was recovering from having the teeth knocked out of them by the Commander, who was forced to attack them until they were incapacitated. They might have been alert enough to stand when Bangar arrived, but well enough to traverse a blizzard landscape with dead weight in tow? Less plausible.

    I'd appreciate if you were less hostile in your responses. You have a right to disagree with me, but bolding your insults doesn't make them less insulting.

    The Commander would have avoided doing much more than incapacitating them momentarily, to the best of their ability. Those kinds of things you can recover from decently well. Especially when there's a guardian in your group.

    And my post had no insult. I bolded a TL;DR, so that it would have focus.

    Kind of like how you bolded your "it's all a lie!" hyperbole.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    This seems like a good place to share what I just encountered in NPC dialogue in Still Waters. Two Vigil, an Asura and a Sylvari, were talking about how the Asura was analyzing and trying to de-mystify the whispers. The last bit of the exchange went something like this:

    Sylvari: "To quantify it. To be able to fight it."
    Asura: "Yes. So many have been turned by the whispers. He tried to stop, but he couldn't."
    Sylvari: "What?"
    Asura: "Nothing, forget I said that."

    Naturally, a huge question comes out of this: HE WHO? STOP WHAT?

    Did Drakkar want to stop the whispers? One of the options that Jormag can say as you enter the lair during the Drakkar meta is that Drakkar "is an innocent." Which could imply that Jormag is forcing Drakkar to act on its behalf, if you believe anything Jormag says. Turns the whole fight against Drakkar into a huge tragedy...

    Even more darkly...did Jormag try to stop the whispers? Could something be compelling Jormag? Jormag has hinted of things to come even darker than itself, which at this point is pretty kitten dark. What could compel an Elder Dragon? One thing for sure, I'm betting it's not Braham's bow in Bangar's paws. I have a feeling that when/if we get to see that confrontation, Jormag will straight up eat Bangar and use that bow as a toothpick. No, it would have to be something else. Something very, very bad.

    Thoughts? Lyssa seems too obvious. For some reason that THING from Deepstone springs to mind, or something like it...Lovecraftian horrors indeed...

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    Would anyone like to talk about the fact that this book exists in the previous chapter, stating that the Norn prophecy about cracking the tooth is lie (and that the spirits of the wild were part of that keeping that lie secret) then, in the next episode, spirit of the wild Wolf is yakking about how Braham is a 'Norn of prophecy'?

    Belief is a powerful enough thing in the real world. In a magical world like Tyria, belief can literally make reality -- just ask any Mesmer. And besides, who said the book and Wolf were talking about the same prophecy? Wolf certainly didn't. And here's why.

    It is important to note that like most Norn, Braham himself believes the legend of the tooth, as evidenced by his own dialogue and actions starting in LS3 and ever since. Braham cracked the tooth; having done so, his cultural duty as a Norn is to fulfill the legend of the tooth, to kill Jormag or die trying. His prior "failure" (due to an inadvertent long distance interruption by Taimi and the Commander) earned him the nickname "Vowbreaker" as Jhavi first called him -- implying that she too believes the legend of the tooth, and notably, she hasn't called Braham "Vowbreaker" since. So the truth of the tooth at this point is largely irrelevant, since everyone that matters believes it. The lie of the tooth had good intentions, but the present situation is the lie's unintended consequences; now to maintain the lie, it's up to Our Heroes and the Spirits of the Wild to help the man-child Braham rise to the monumental task that "prophecy" has set before him. There's a lesson about faith vs. reality in here somewhere. "Some say it's just a part of it -- We've got to fulfill the book..."

  • So killing that ambassador removed ability to whisper beyond Jormag's lair. So killing ambassador-losing abilities is opposite to eating magic-gaining abilities. Does that mean impact on mindset also?
    Aurene knows more than before, is more serious.
    Second thing about ambassador is: it's part of him outside of main body, so Jormag can made ambassadors of: shadow/death and mind/plant, to solve problem with conflicting magic inside own body. No need to go inside Jormag to solve that one.

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Even more darkly...did Jormag try to stop the whispers? Could something be compelling Jormag? Jormag has hinted of things to come even darker than itself, which at this point is pretty kitten dark. What could compel an Elder Dragon? One thing for sure, I'm betting it's not Braham's bow in Bangar's paws. I have a feeling that when/if we get to see that confrontation, Jormag will straight up eat Bangar and use that bow as a toothpick. No, it would have to be something else. Something very, very bad.

    Thoughts? Lyssa seems too obvious. For some reason that THING from Deepstone springs to mind, or something like it...Lovecraftian horrors indeed...

    I doubt a mere demon would be capable of commanding an Elder Dragon, and the gods seem to take a "no interacting with Elder Dragons" approach so I doubt it's Lyssa (I'm also doubtful that Lyssa's evil or anything as folks theorize from Balthazar). It's been suggested by devs in Q&As that the other Elder Dragons suffer from Torment, maybe Jormag's torment is compelling them to act in a way they'd rather not.

    @Mem no Fushia.7604 said:
    So killing that ambassador removed ability to whisper beyond Jormag's lair. So killing ambassador-losing abilities is opposite to eating magic-gaining abilities. Does that mean impact on mindset also?
    Aurene knows more than before, is more serious.
    Second thing about ambassador is: it's part of him outside of main body, so Jormag can made ambassadors of: shadow/death and mind/plant, to solve problem with conflicting magic inside own body. No need to go inside Jormag to solve that one.

    Hard to say on both accounts. On the account of losing the ability - maybe the whispers goes back to Jormag, and he can implant it into a new host. Drakkar was effectively just a shell for this power in the end, and while the Whisper of Jormag vanished... magic is a static, and cannot be destroyed, merely change forms; so did it change forms (dissipated, return to the world's magic, etc.), or did it return to Jormag?

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    All these squares make a circle.