Debunking Tempest Healing Myths (WvW)

[God.2708]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@God.2708 said:You forgot to include swapping into water attunement doing a cleanse (Presumably 5 per 20s, though technically you could get up to 5 per 8.5s), the cleanse from rebound (10 per 75s), and since they are swapping out of water.,,

There’s a very good reason I didn’t include the cleanse into swapping water attunement.Firstly, that trait (it’s called cleansing wave) requires you to leave water to make use of it. Leaving water means you lose cleansing from Overload Water (plus a hoard of

Not a trait, Arcane gives you regen upon swapping into water attunement which gives an additional 5 per 20 to the cleansing water build. (and if you take the trait though you cleanse 2 conditions on 5 allies upon swapping into water). It is not a great percentage of overall cleanses, no. But again, you are looking at numbers that are only realistically going to occur if you are sitting under AC fire and cleansing pulsing cripple or bleeding. A cleansing water build with trooper runes cleanses multiple condis at once with most of its clears, which gives it a much better advantage when it comes to clearing stacks of condis and getting to relevant conditions like immob.

It is very unusual for a fight to simply be a 100% sustain fight that would necessitate sitting in water 100% of the time. Unless yes, you are sitting underneath a hoard of ACs. There's some situational awareness that comes with all builds. I do agree soothing mist is the way to go if you are a solo tempest, but the more tempests you add the more the cleansing water build becomes favorable (or do D/Wh with fire and powerful aura, cleanses ~10% less than the cleansing water build, heals way less obviously, but gives a ton of unique utility).

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@God.2708 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@God.2708 said:You forgot to include swapping into water attunement doing a cleanse (Presumably 5 per 20s, though technically you could get up to 5 per 8.5s), the cleanse from rebound (10 per 75s), and since they are swapping out of water.,,

There’s a very good reason I didn’t include the cleanse into swapping water attunement.Firstly, that trait (it’s called cleansing wave) requires you to leave water to make use of it. Leaving water means you lose cleansing from Overload Water (plus a hoard of

Not a trait, Arcane gives you regen upon swapping into water attunement which gives an additional 5 per 20 to the cleansing water build. (and if you take the trait though you cleanse 2 conditions on 5 allies upon swapping into water).

Ah I see now. Okay ya your right I didn’t factor that in. But ya those together still accounts for a total of 90 conditions (with Windbourne an additional 100 conditions) which is indeed enough to cover the gap left behind from leaving water to cast them.

But I’ll just go back to a more original point, that there still is not enough reason to actually leave water. The only reason I would ever leave water is to cast air 5 and earth 4 for some CC’s IF the commander calls for it. I usually use my CCs defensively while doing a fake retreat before a reverse, which is still support role rather than using the CC in an offensive manner. But during most fights, keeping your teammates at 100% health 100% of the time really is important, Because once people go downstate and it goes rally v rally, that time you spent fiddling around in fire attunement can cascade into guardians not able to heal through enough pressure, dying, enemy rallies and then leading to a Zerg wipe.

Lastly the original point of the thread was that dodges and OW are the most powerful cleansing abilities (and some of the strongest healing abilities too btw) and that they should be used constantly to do good cleansing without a cleanse build (which means staying in water.)

If your play style is to switch attunements a lot, then you can go another build, but do you really think you are support if your supporting your allies 25% of the time?

[Rowena.9375]

We run arcdps for our fights. Even with up to 25 people in a squad, I'm almost always top cleanses and in the top 5 for dps inbound. We always seem to be up against condi blobs, so the cleanses are critical for us. If we have the right number of firebrands and a rev or two, we have great sustain in a group of 15-20. I am a dodging fool. I probably don't use staff 1 as often as I should as I'm not usually targeting an enemy when I'm shucking and jiving to stay on tag while throwing out those heals.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Grey Mane.9487 said:We run arcdps for our fights. Even with up to 25 people in a squad, I'm almost always top cleanses and in the top 5 for dps inbound. We always seem to be up against condi blobs, so the cleanses are critical for us. If we have the right number of firebrands and a rev or two, we have great sustain in a group of 15-20. I am a dodging fool. I probably don't use staff 1 as often as I should as I'm not usually targeting an enemy when I'm shucking and jiving to stay on tag while throwing out those heals.

If you face against condi blobs more so than power (here in NA it’s 99% power meta) then going more condition oriented is perfectly okay if you feel it’s necessary.

But ya if you find yourself in water, in between rotation of utilities, should be spamming 1. It is a filler skill, but it is an important filler that you should use when you can. You also don’t have to aim at a target to use staff 1. You aim it at the ground (with your tag as the target usually) and it will still heal people. In other words the skill doesn’t require an enemy target for the heal to go off.

[God.2708]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@God.2708 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@God.2708 said:You forgot to include swapping into water attunement doing a cleanse (Presumably 5 per 20s, though technically you could get up to 5 per 8.5s), the cleanse from rebound (10 per 75s), and since they are swapping out of water.,,

There’s a very good reason I didn’t include the cleanse into swapping water attunement.Firstly, that trait (it’s called cleansing wave) requires you to leave water to make use of it. Leaving water means you lose cleansing from Overload Water (plus a hoard of

Not a trait, Arcane gives you regen upon swapping into water attunement which gives an additional 5 per 20 to the cleansing water build. (and if you take the trait though you cleanse 2 conditions on 5 allies upon swapping into water).If your play style is to switch attunements a lot, then you can go another build, but do you really think you are support if your supporting your allies 25% of the time?

It is not particularly difficult to overload water, swap out of water at the ~8s CD mark, and then swap back in once it comes off CD and use shouts and earth blasts to cover the gap. Maintains approximately 66% support uptime if you define support as spamming water 1 because that's all you're doing sitting in water anytime overload water isn't up.

And I get the original point, but overload water is interruptible. If a tempest was interested in cleansing specifically they'd take FtB over Aftershock (which you have the CD wrong for btw, it has 45s CD in WvW) which vastly improves their condition cleansing over time with the reduced CD and leans the overall cleanses much more in favor of the shouts vs overload water (FTB + WTPA cleanses almost as much as overload water just by themselves in a cleansing water build).

Dodging is a lot of cleansing but it also has an ICD so there is nothing stopping you from leaving the attunement for the 8.5s with proper timing and utilizing the earth dodge to blast since evasive arcanas ICD is attunement dependent. There's some extra blasts (dodge + eruption + transmute earth), more CCs (earth 4+5, air 5+3), more cleanses (air 4). You are throwing all of that away so you can spam staff 1 some more and get overload water back 4.25s sooner (and banking on it not getting interrupted).

To summarize, if you are specifically camping water just to camp water you are doing things wrong barring certain niche situations (like sitting under AC fire). I agree with the other myths though, but do contend that cleansing water is superior to soothing mist the more tempests you add to a squad.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@God.2708 said:but do contend that cleansing water is superior to soothing mist the more tempests you add to a squad.

I can agree that the more tempests are in the group (if you have more than one tempest per 13 people) then soothing mist does lose value. In that situation it’s fine to switch some traits around, or even run a different build if you feel it conflicts with the other tempests too much

But also consider that as you go cleansing you are lowering the value of your cleansing va scrappers who are competing for the same cleanses (and also do it better by converting conditions into boons)

Again about staff 1, you are limited in seeing how much healing it actually does. When it is stacked with regens and soothing mist you are blanket healing for 3k healing per second on a lot of people at a time. 3k per second healing is nothing to scoff at, even in burst situations.

As for FTB and WTPA cleansing it’s definitely not more than Overload Water still...I’m not sure which build setup you could be talking about. If you are running FTB then you aren’t getting anything out of cleansing waters because no regen (not to mention FTB has very little utility for support)

Unless I’ve missed something there, your getting 20 condicleanse per WtPA and 10 condi cleanse per FTB. If you are running Fire traitline, then I just don’t see how you’d be as useful as an arcane ele in terms of utility (no cleanse on dodge...no geyser Rez...more attunement and overload downtime)

[God.2708]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@God.2708 said:but do contend that cleansing water is superior to soothing mist the more tempests you add to a squad.Unless I’ve missed something there, your getting 20 condicleanse per WtPA and 10 condi cleanse per FTB. If you are running Fire traitline, then I just don’t see how you’d be as useful as an arcane ele in terms of utility (no cleanse on dodge...no geyser Rez...more attunement and overload downtime)

Ele is really in a fun state and honestly a support elementalist could get away with 3 different armor sets and like 4 different trait set ups and perform a similar but unique role with any one of them. Healing focus, Cleanse focus, Offensive CC focus, Boon focus. It's identity struggle at the moment is that it can't do 3 of them at once without sacrifice, at best two, which makes scrapper more appealing since it can do all of them at an acceptable level and provide stealth to boot.

If you're looking at a minimalistic party set up that is irrelevant and you can relegate massive green numbers to the tempest. But it makes for bad pug builds because you can't expect pugs to understand the nuances that go into it to make it succeed. Though topics like these are definitely beneficial to help alleviate that.

On the FtB topic, it gives a nice burst of might (7 stacks on 10 people is as much as a revenant typically maintains) and is instant cast so you can layer it with FF for a triple condi clear. It + WtPA is not as much as AS, but I think if you crunch the numbers up above you'll find using it + WTPA + FF results in the shouts performing superior clear levels over a fight compared to overload water, with no risk of interruption (though they should be utilized together, it's rare you need to clear 1 or 2 condis on 10 people, more like you need to clear 4+)

Fire traitline runs better with D/WH where you have a reason to actually swap into fire and abuse sunspot for 5 man clears via powerful aura. It is definitely a condi cleanse and boon upkeep focused build though and sacrifices a lot of healing.

[Krizalio.2759]

What a great topic !I want to introduce a little of my analysis.Superior Sigil of Life vs Superior Sigil of Benevolencehttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwQYOMGWJm2WntbA-zRJYjRBfZEUBUdC47hIAbg3S/bWA-eI took this build as a basis, but you can substitute your numbers in healing power and concentration (in oil formula)Skill formulas from wiki.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SDKaMdu-JZCVvFRbbVo-BRuRa4ZszV1UG2HrqluuG8g/edit?usp=sharing

If I made a mistake somewhere, I will be very grateful if you tell me.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Krizalio.2759" said:What a great topic !I want to introduce a little of my analysis.Superior Sigil of Life vs Superior Sigil of Benevolencehttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwQYOMGWJm2WntbA-zRJYjRBfZEUBUdC47hIAbg3S/bWA-eI took this build as a basis, but you can substitute your numbers in healing power and concentration (in oil formula)Skill formulas from wiki.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SDKaMdu-JZCVvFRbbVo-BRuRa4ZszV1UG2HrqluuG8g/edit?usp=sharing

If I made a mistake somewhere, I will be very grateful if you tell me.

Thanks. I appreciate that you like the discussion and doing the right maths to determine what’s best for your build setup.

I made this thread a while back before the big patch change. A lot of healing was dialed down, and I haven’t played my elementalist much since patch.

As of my thoughts right now, heal ele is in a spot where it can barely hang in there in terms of healing capability. The nerfs to geyser, overload Water and staff1 hit the healing builds pretty hard, and all that’s left for ele in my opinion, are the cleansing builds, despite how mediocre it is in comparison to engineer.

As for life vs. benevolence, the relationship between healing modifiers and healing power is dependent on the proportionality of the amplitude of the healing.

For Example, if you use a skill that has a heal amplitude of 100,000, and you have benevolence, you are healing for an extra 12,000 health (12%). To reach an equivalent amount via healing power means you’d probably have to invest in thousands of healing power to reach the same number of 12,000 (the exact number of stats to invest depends on heal power scaling)

But when heal amplitude is low like 1000, than 12% in healing mods is 120 additional healing, and reaching the equivalent healing only requires very small investment of healing power (again depending on the scaling.)

So in conclusion, because healing in general has gone down massively on the class due to the nerfs, healing power stats is in general, more impactful than healing modifiers, on a case by case basis.

[Infusion.7149]

It depends on the base heal amount. The heal coefficients were nerfed but the base heals are largely intact.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Krizalio.2759" said:What a great topic !I want to introduce a little of my analysis.Superior Sigil of Life vs Superior Sigil of Benevolence

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwQYOMGWJm2WntbA-zRJYjRBfZEUBUdC47hIAbg3S/bWA-e

I took this build as a basis, but you can substitute your numbers in healing power and concentration (in oil formula)Skill formulas from wiki.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SDKaMdu-JZCVvFRbbVo-BRuRa4ZszV1UG2HrqluuG8g/edit?usp=sharing

If I made a mistake somewhere, I will be very grateful if you tell me.

Thanks. I appreciate that you like the discussion and doing the right maths to determine what’s best for your build setup.

I made this thread a while back before the big patch change. A lot of healing was dialed down, and I haven’t played my elementalist much since patch.

As of my thoughts right now, heal ele is in a spot where it can barely hang in there in terms of healing capability. The nerfs to geyser, overload Water and staff1 hit the healing builds pretty hard, and all that’s left for ele in my opinion, are the cleansing builds, despite how mediocre it is in comparison to engineer.

As for life vs. benevolence, the relationship between healing modifiers and healing power is dependent on the proportionality of the amplitude of the healing.

For Example, if you use a skill that has a heal amplitude of 100,000, and you have benevolence, you are healing for an extra 12,000 health (12%). To reach an equivalent amount via healing power means you’d probably have to invest in thousands of healing power to reach the same number of 12,000 (the exact number of stats to invest depends on heal power scaling)

But when heal amplitude is low like 1000, than 12% in healing mods is 120 additional healing, and reaching the equivalent healing only requires very small investment of healing power (again depending on the scaling.)

So in conclusion, because healing in general has gone down massively on the class due to the nerfs, healing power stats is in general, more impactful than healing modifiers, on a case by case basis.

I would argue your point of ele 'barely' hanging in there in terms of healing. Yes, healing got nerfed but so did damage - especially power. The old Water, Arcane, Tempest staff build is not performing that well, I agree. However, Water, Fire, Tempest Dagger + Warhorn / Focus with Soldier Rune and aurashare is insanely strong. Massive cleanses + a lot of healing from auras.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:I would argue your point of ele 'barely' hanging in there in terms of healing. Yes, healing got nerfed but so did damage - especially power. The old Water, Arcane, Tempest staff build is not performing that well, I agree. However, Water, Fire, Tempest Dagger + Warhorn / Focus with Soldier Rune and aurashare is insanely strong. Massive cleanses + a lot of healing from auras.

Look. I'm don't want to argue with you about builds or whatever. i've played heal/supports for a long time (going as far back as solo druid raid healing in WoW and Gw1 E/Mo bonding on UWSC's), and I've analyzed healing on a level beyond just gw2 game mechanics (pure mathematics) and you can tell through just mathematics alone what has worked well and what only "appears" to work well.

For example, you can present to me a build like Water/Fire/Tempest and say that it does good cleansing and good healing, therefor it's good. But i can tell you that, prior to patch i was healing for 10x more, and cleansing 10x more, and doing 10x in utility than what you can currently do (or did) on W/F/T build. So when you say something is "good" that is "bad" to me because I've experienced WAY better performance from the class. Not saying the build is bad, i'm just saying that relatively speaking, it doesn't meet the standards of what i would consider good, based on what i know what it was formerly capable of.

I mean tell me...can you currently solo heal a group of 15 with this build? Can you currently fight outnumbers 2 to 1 with this build in a open field guild fight? I know it can't...not saying that with regards to your build or play-style, but it's just in the maths. There simply isn't enough there anymore to do those things.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:I would argue your point of ele 'barely' hanging in there in terms of healing. Yes, healing got nerfed but so did damage - especially power. The old Water, Arcane, Tempest staff build is not performing that well, I agree. However, Water, Fire, Tempest Dagger + Warhorn / Focus with Soldier Rune and aurashare is insanely strong. Massive cleanses + a lot of healing from auras.

Look. I'm don't want to argue with you about builds or whatever. i've played heal/supports for a long time (going as far back as solo druid raid healing in WoW and Gw1 E/Mo bonding on UWSC's), and I've analyzed healing on a level beyond just gw2 game mechanics (pure mathematics) and you can tell through just mathematics alone what has worked well and what only "appears" to work well.

For example, you can present to me a build like Water/Fire/Tempest and say that it does good cleansing and good healing, therefor it's good. But i can tell you that, prior to patch i was healing for 10x more, and cleansing 10x more, and doing 10x in utility than what you can currently do (or did) on W/F/T build. So when you say something is "good" that is "bad" to me because I've experienced WAY better performance from the class. Not saying the build is bad, i'm just saying that relatively speaking, it doesn't meet the standards of what i would consider good, based on what i know what it was formerly capable of.

I mean tell me...can you currently solo heal a group of 15 with this build? Can you currently fight outnumbers 2 to 1 with this build in a open field guild fight? I know it can't...not saying that with regards to your build or play-style, but it's just in the maths. There simply isn't enough there anymore to do those things.

Wow! No need to be so defensive. And no need to flex - I am a long-time healer myself across all games I play, tempest gw2 included.Regarding your points about the 'new' aurashare d/w fire water tempest ---- you bring TONS of utility with constant aura applications. As you know, every aura has its own unique effects. So add this to aura on heal, cleanse on shout + extra cleanse from Soldier Rune and you have got yourself a GREAT build. Games change, so it's either 'adapt or perish'.

P.S. Pre-nerf, even in terms of raw healing, tempest wasn't on top. Ventari Herald was, and probably is still due to insane modifiers. Not that the build is great since it just 'heals'.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:Wow! No need to be so defensive. And no need to flex - I am a long-time healer myself across all games I play, tempest gw2 included.Regarding your points about the 'new' aurashare d/w fire water tempest ---- you bring TONS of utility with constant aura applications. As you know, every aura has its own unique effects. So add this to aura on heal, cleanse on shout + extra cleanse from Soldier Rune and you have got yourself a GREAT build. Games change, so it's either 'adapt or perish'.P.S. Pre-nerf, even in terms of raw healing, tempest wasn't on top. Ventari Herald was, and probably is still due to insane modifiers. Not that the build is great since it just 'heals'.

Like i said, your "great" is "meh" to me. it's just a different standard. In order for a build to be "great" you'd have to solo heal 15-20 man or be able to hold your own in a 15v30 GvG with the build. My Staff 1 auto can still even after patch, heal more than what you can pump out with aura sharing. Has nothing to do with the build and if its good or not. Has to do with how capable it is.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:Wow! No need to be so defensive. And no need to flex - I am a long-time healer myself across all games I play, tempest gw2 included.Regarding your points about the 'new' aurashare d/w fire water tempest ---- you bring TONS of utility with constant aura applications. As you know, every aura has its own unique effects. So add this to aura on heal, cleanse on shout + extra cleanse from Soldier Rune and you have got yourself a GREAT build. Games change, so it's either 'adapt or perish'.P.S. Pre-nerf, even in terms of raw healing, tempest wasn't on top. Ventari Herald was, and probably is still due to insane modifiers. Not that the build is great since it just 'heals'.

Like i said, your "great" is "meh" to me. it's just a different standard. In order for a build to be "great" you'd have to solo heal 15-20 man or be able to hold your own in a 15v30 GvG with the build. My Staff 1 auto can still even after patch, heal more than what you can pump out with aura sharing. Has nothing to do with the build and if its good or not. Has to do with how capable it is.

You are contradicting yourself. So, please enlighten me ---- "As of my thoughts right now, heal ele is in a spot where it can barely hang in there in terms of healing capability." Is ele heal still OP? Is your staff ele still OP and able to sustain 15v30 GvG? To be honest, your healing argument is redundant because, as I mentioned before, if only raw healing would be enough to sustain a Zerg, Ventari would do it better. Also, Firebrand had quite hefty nerfs to its healing output ---Still staple in every squad group. This brings me back to my point that healing AND utility - be it it buffs, auras etc, - not just healing power are what make a goof support build. Another build that does it even better than Aura Tempest is Support Shout SLB.

[God.2708]

@"Krizalio.2759" said:What a great topic !I want to introduce a little of my analysis.Superior Sigil of Life vs Superior Sigil of Benevolencehttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwQYOMGWJm2WntbA-zRJYjRBfZEUBUdC47hIAbg3S/bWA-eI took this build as a basis, but you can substitute your numbers in healing power and concentration (in oil formula)Skill formulas from wiki.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SDKaMdu-JZCVvFRbbVo-BRuRa4ZszV1UG2HrqluuG8g/edit?usp=sharing

If I made a mistake somewhere, I will be very grateful if you tell me.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LCm6EqBXF0lXZ9SvdyV2hbKtnzeVxb3juzfoJid5sPo/edit?usp=sharing

I tidied it up a bit for you on the second sheet. Conditionally formatted it to highlight in red when benevolence was worse. I'm also 99% certain that sigil of lifes extra healing power doesn't get applied to the bountiful maintenance oils calculation.

I'll suggest that your concept needs work though. Outgoing healing modifiers apply to heals only on allies. So if I heal 5 targets, 4 of them are getting the extra 12.5% healing but with a sigil of life 5 people are taking advantage of the extra 250 healing. So you'd need to expand the formulas to properly account for that if you wanted to be truly scientific about it. A more correct comparison would likely look something like:

((Base heal + (Healing power modifier)) (Number of targets - 1) Outgoing healing modifier + (Base heal + (Healing power modifier))

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

P.S. Pre-nerf, even in terms of raw healing, tempest wasn't on top. Ventari Herald was, and probably is still due to insane modifiers. Not that the build is great since it just 'heals'.

No. Tempest was always the strongest raw healer up until patch. Ventari, even though it’s decent was no match against Tempest for a number of reasons. Mostly because it lacked critical utilities, like condition cleanse Rez potential, it also lacked self healing, and sustain healing. Ventari rev is only good low target burst healing and passive blanket healing, both mechanics gated by cooldown times.

if only raw healing would be enough to sustain a Zerg...

Also on a more fundamental note, nearly every ability in the game boils down to 2 values (3 actually but we can ignore the 3rd since it’s not relevant here)

That’s Healing, and Damage.

Frost aura you can classify as a utility. But fundamentally it boils down to healing. If I hit you for 10k damage, and you have frost aura up, then you instead take 9k damage, which essentially means you healed for 1k. Likewise if you have magnetic aura up, and if I were to hit you with a ranged projectile for 10k, you would take 0 damage and you essentially healed for 10k.

So now, one could create scenarios in which you could add the potential of these numbers ranging from ineffective to most effective.As an example, If you took a million damage, frost aura in this case would heal you for 90,000. If you took no damage with Frost aura up than you healed for 0.

So now you can do the math and then determine the differences, aiming for more and more realistic scenarios. You’ll find that the numbers are staggeringly low in comparison to skills that just raw heal like staff 1.

In conclusion, I’m not saying frost aura or any other utility is useless. Both mechanics are technically supposed to be used together. But raw healing is technically “better” and should be prioritized as such.

[Krizalio.2759]

@"God.2708" said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LCm6EqBXF0lXZ9SvdyV2hbKtnzeVxb3juzfoJid5sPo/edit?usp=sharing

I tidied it up a bit for you on the second sheet. Conditionally formatted it to highlight in red when benevolence was worse. I'm also 99% certain that sigil of lifes extra healing power doesn't get applied to the bountiful maintenance oils calculation.

I'll suggest that your concept needs work though. Outgoing healing modifiers apply to heals only on allies. So if I heal 5 targets, 4 of them are getting the extra 12.5% healing but with a sigil of life 5 people are taking advantage of the extra 250 healing. So you'd need to expand the formulas to properly account for that if you wanted to be truly scientific about it. A more correct comparison would likely look something like:

((Base heal + (Healing power modifier)) (Number of targets - 1) Outgoing healing modifier + (Base heal + (Healing power modifier))

Thank you so much.About the oil formula. I do not know much about the intricacies of mechanics. But judging by the wiki ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gain_X_Based_on_Y ), thenConversions are based on stats from the following sources:Attributes gained naturally from levelAll gear (stats on armor, weapons, trinkets, etc)Rune flat stat bonuses (all runes)Trait bonuses that give statsStacking SigilsFlat bonuses from FoodFlat bonuses from Utility

Therefore, I figured that should be included in the formula.

The fact that Behe does not heal himself, I know, first of all I wanted to evaluate healing to allies, but I completely forgot that I also need healing. And this also affects the overall performance, as you have shown.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

P.S. Pre-nerf, even in terms of raw healing, tempest wasn't on top. Ventari Herald was, and probably is still due to insane modifiers. Not that the build is great since it just 'heals'.

No. Tempest was always the strongest raw healer up until patch. Ventari, even though it’s decent was no match against Tempest for a number of reasons. Mostly because it lacked critical utilities, like condition cleanse Rez potential, it also lacked self healing, and sustain healing. Ventari rev is only good low target burst healing and passive blanket healing, both mechanics gated by cooldown times.>

Wrong. Tempest never had the highest raw healing OUTPUT in game ever. It has always been Ventari, at least until the last patch. You are again missing the point here ---- I already said that Ventari is far from BIS support/heal for the SAME things that you mentioned. But - could you tempest ever do a 15-17k burst heals? Ventari tablet could.Thanks.

[God.2708]

@Krizalio.2759 said:

@"God.2708" said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LCm6EqBXF0lXZ9SvdyV2hbKtnzeVxb3juzfoJid5sPo/edit?usp=sharing

I tidied it up a bit for you on the second sheet. Conditionally formatted it to highlight in red when benevolence was worse. I'm also 99% certain that sigil of lifes extra healing power doesn't get applied to the bountiful maintenance oils calculation.

I'll suggest that your concept needs work though. Outgoing healing modifiers apply to heals only on allies. So if I heal 5 targets, 4 of them are getting the extra 12.5% healing but with a sigil of life 5 people are taking advantage of the extra 250 healing. So you'd need to expand the formulas to properly account for that if you wanted to be truly scientific about it. A more correct comparison would likely look something like:

((Base heal + (Healing power

modifier))

(Number of targets - 1)

Outgoing healing modifier + (Base heal + (Healing power

modifier))

Thank you so much.About the oil formula. I do not know much about the intricacies of mechanics. But judging by the wiki (

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gain_X_Based_on_Y

), thenConversions are based on stats from the following sources:Attributes gained naturally from levelAll gear (stats on armor, weapons, trinkets, etc)Rune flat stat bonuses (all runes)Trait bonuses that give statsStacking SigilsFlat bonuses from FoodFlat bonuses from Utility

Therefore, I figured that should be included in the formula.

The fact that Behe does not heal himself, I know, first of all I wanted to evaluate healing to allies, but I completely forgot that I also need healing. And this also affects the overall performance, as you have shown.

Huh. Thought stacking sigils fell under a different category. I stand corrected! Edit: And that difference does make sigil of life superior.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

P.S. Pre-nerf, even in terms of raw healing, tempest wasn't on top. Ventari Herald was, and probably is still due to insane modifiers. Not that the build is great since it just 'heals'.

No. Tempest was always the strongest raw healer up until patch. Ventari, even though it’s decent was no match against Tempest for a number of reasons. Mostly because it lacked critical utilities, like condition cleanse Rez potential, it also lacked self healing, and sustain healing. Ventari rev is only good low target burst healing and passive blanket healing, both mechanics gated by cooldown times.>

Wrong. Tempest never had the highest raw healing OUTPUT in game ever. It has always been Ventari, at least until the last patch. You are again missing the point here ---- I already said that Ventari is far from BIS support/heal for the SAME things that you mentioned. But - could you tempest ever do a 15-17k burst heals? Ventari tablet could.Thanks.

You haven't done research or any real analysis. But because you BELIEVE that Ventari Rev has the "highest raw healing" you automatically believe this to be so...without any proofs, or without doing any kind of REAL analysis other than "I see big green numbers there for i'm right."

Tempest can do (or at least it did...not sure if it still does) upward of 20-30k burst heals, if not more so because Tempest has access to more than just one. Not to mention it can effect 10 Targets, unlike Healing Rev's tablet. Wash the Pain Away, Rebound, and Overload Water are all 12-15K+ burst healing abilities that effect 10 targets...and can be combo'd and overlap with other abilities to make the burst even higher. such as the following:Overload Water -> Dodge =20k Burst.WTPA! -> Dodge = 22k Burst.Rebound/Geyser rez -> Water Overload/WTPA! -> Dodge = 30k+ burst.

You are again missing the point here ----

So what point do i keep missing? I keep addressing everything you are saying with a clear and concise answer.1) Tempest was the best raw healer in the game...For many reasons.2) Staff 1 auto can still even after patch, probably, heal more than what you can pump out with aura sharing.3) due to #2 above, what does that say about an aura-share based build when it can't even match the raw healing of just Staff 1 after nerfs? Full Heal Ele was obliterated by the Patch, with the Geyser change being the biggest wound. The only thing left to play is aurashare or WFT. And Aurashare can not do what staff was able to do pre-patch like 15v30 or solo sustain squad of 20. So yes on my original statement...Ele is struggling to find a place in WvW as a healer...and it was even usurped by condition cleanse minstrel warrior on metabattle...i mean that's just insult to injury.

[God.2708]

There's a communication disconnect here where you are assuming his 15-17k burst heal refers to total healing when he is referencing the ventari healing a single target. It is more like a 70-80k burst heal. Feel free to crunch the numbers but a Herald ventari healer absolutely swamps the green number output of an elementalist. It just has to wield the horribly awkward tablet to do it while elementalist spam hits 1.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@God.2708 said:There's a communication disconnect here where you are assuming his 15-17k burst heal refers to total healing when he is referencing the ventari healing a single target. It is more like a 70-80k burst heal. Feel free to crunch the numbers but a Herald ventari healer absolutely swamps the green number output of an elementalist. It just has to wield the horribly awkward tablet to do it while elementalist spam hits 1.

No there is no miscommunication. Single target burst for what I said is 12-15k per target...overlap with other bursts in a combo and it’s 20-30k Per target up to 10 targets. If we want to talk total healing for all targets, ele was easily 15k x 10 which is twice as much as what Ventari can do because we have 10 target heals.

The calculations for WtPA is 150k healing alone, same with Rebound, same with OW and same with Geyser on downed. Like I said no miscommunication. I know exactly what I’m talking about. YOU have to crunch the numbers.

[God.2708]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@God.2708 said:There's a communication disconnect here where you are assuming his 15-17k burst heal refers to total healing when he is referencing the ventari healing a single target. It is more like a 70-80k burst heal. Feel free to crunch the numbers but a Herald ventari healer absolutely swamps the green number output of an elementalist. It just has to wield the horribly awkward tablet to do it while elementalist spam hits 1.

No there is no miscommunication. Single target burst for what I said is 12-15k per target...overlap with other bursts in a combo and it’s 20-30k Per target up to 10 targets. If we want to talk total healing for all targets, ele was easily 15k x 10 which is twice as much as what Ventari can do because we have 10 target heals.

The calculations for WtPA is 150k healing alone, same with Rebound, same with OW and same with Geyser on downed. Like I said no miscommunication. I know exactly what I’m talking about. YOU have to crunch the numbers.

The single target burst in an absolutely ideal scenario from WTPA is 11k. Unless your group is tighter than some freshly woven woolen knickers the first tick is going to miss most people and now you're left with a ginormous burst heal of 5k. Which I'll grant is nice to drop on 10 people in a 240 radius (which still isn't very big), but it's also on a 25s CD. A ventari rev puts out an 8k burst heal every 4s. So you did 110k healing in 25s if you're entire group in need of healing is within a 180 radius, and a ventari rev did... 200-230k healing (depending on how much you have to move the tablet).

I'm not sure I'm the one who needs to work the numbers.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"God.2708" said:The single target burst in an absolutely ideal scenario from WTPA is 11k. Unless your group is tighter than some freshly woven woolen knickers the first tick is going to miss most people and now you're left with a ginormous burst heal of 5k. Which I'll grant is nice to drop on 10 people in a 240 radius (which still isn't very big), but it's also on a 25s CD. A ventari rev puts out an 8k burst heal every 4s. So you did 110k healing in 25s if you're entire group in need of healing is within a 180 radius, and a ventari rev did... 200-230k healing (depending on how much you have to move the tablet).

I'm not sure I'm the one who needs to work the numbers.

See you are purposefully manipulating the narrative here. What you are talking about is sustained healing...We were talking about burst healing. Sustained healing is healing that occurs over the course of X amount of seconds. Burst healing is a healing sequence that ideally happens instantaneously.

in terms of BURST Healing, WTPA > Nature's Harmony because it effects more targets 150k > 80k.In terms of sustain healing, Nature's Harmony > WTPA... obviously, because you can use NH more often that WTPA over the course of X seconds...minutes...whatever.

But that still doesn't mean Healing Revenant has better sustained healing than Tempest, because tempest has MANY more skills that it can use over the course of an arbitrary amount of time, while Ventari has much MUCH less at it's disposal.

So if you add up all the things Ventari can do and compare it to Tempest for sustain healing, you'll find that Tempest beats Ventari. The one thing Ventari has is sharing Regeneration to more than 25 people at a time (Yes it's capable of doing this with Draconic Echo) and thus it can blanket heal an entire zerg for 1.2k healing per second. But this also doesn't equate to being a "good" healer because it has only this mechanic for it's healing (The other being Ventari's Pulse Healing on Aspect). Try to heal people taking more than 1.2k damage per second? Too bad your Revenant can't do anything for you until Ventari comes off cooldown, Tempest says hello.

Just to list out all the possible approximate healing that both Ventari and Tempest can do for sustained healing (Let's take an arbitrary time of 180 seconds) -

Ventari (2k HP 150% mods):1) Regneration - 1.2k x 25 Allies per 90seconds/180 seconds = 2.7 million2) Legendary Centaur Stance - 2.5k x 5 Allies (x3 uses) per 20 seconds/180seconds = 330,0003) Nature's Harmony - 16k x 5 Allies (x3 uses) per 20 seconds/180seconds = 2.16 million4) Project Tranquility - 600 x 5 Allies(x3 uses) per 20 seconds/180seconds = 86,000 (? Need's clarification)5) Mender's Rebuke - 13k(x5) - (x2 uses) per 20 seconds - 18/180 = 468,0006) Renewing Wave - 32k(x5) + 31k(HOx5) - 12/180 = 760,0007) Call of the Centaur - 49k(x5) (x1 uses per 20 seconds) - 9/180 = 444,0008) Rejuvenating Assault -3.7k(x3) + (12.4k)(HOx2) (1 use ever 2 seconds) 90/180 = 1.5 millionTotal = Approx 8.4 million.

~~Anything else? let me know if i missed something. ~~Btw if you are wondering why Regeneration is per 90 seconds, is because you can't perma it on 25 people while switching between Legendary stances. Also with NH, it's 16k healing x 5 allies x 3 uses (roughly 10 seconds of cooldown) plus 10 seconds of off cooldown when switching between stances, for a total 3 uses per 20 second intervals. This is also done for PT (x3 uses)

Tempest:1)Soothing Mist(x13) - 130,000 Healing per 10 second "cooldown"/ 2.34 Million per 3min2)Staff 1(x5) - 7,500 Healing per 1 second/180 seconds = 1.3 million3) Overload Water(x10) - 190,000 Healing per 17 seconds/180 seconds =1.9 Million4) WTPA!(x10) - 130,000 Healing per 20 seconds/180 seconds = 1.2 Million5) Rebound!(x10) - 130,000 Healing per 75 seconds/180 seconds = 240,0006) Aftershock!(x10) - 30,000 Healing per 35 seconds/180 seconds = 150,0007) Flash Freeze!(x10) - 60,000 Healing per 25 seconds/180 seconds = 420,0008) Evasive Arcana(x5) - 30,000 Healing per 10 seconds/180 seconds = 540,0009) Geyser on downed(x5) - 50,000 healing per 16 seconds/180 seconds = 550,000 (Can ignore. Situational Utility.)10) Geyser (Regular)(x5) - 12,000 healing per 16 seconds/180 seconds = 139,000 (Can ignore. Situational Utility.)Total = 8 million - 8.6 million

These numbers above i already include the Regeneration that they apply , and the number of targets they effect is also already included (i put in parenthesis the number of targets they effect.)

So now, just eye ball it. Who has more raw sustained healing you think? Take a wild guess. I put the total there also, but please feel free to fight on the behalf of Ventari. I'm sure i missed something that can boost those numbers up...just need an extra 3 million source of healing.

Edited for updated numbers.