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Balance Patch Preview - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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A few points for consideration on my first pass of these:

I'm really stoked to hear ya'll focusing on counterplay, that's a direction I'm been hoping you'd take for a long while now. I'm excited we are reducing damage across the board. We'll have to see how the damage nerfs shake out. I expect their increased cadence on balance changes is directly tied to making such across the board changes, allowing you to tune more quickly.

My issue is you're talking about counterplay but only planning to increase the cooldowns on automatic traits – like Defy Pain and Instant Reflexes for example. These types of traits are antithetical to enjoyable counter play because they are not player-triggered. Decreasing how often they go off is better than nothing, but the problem with these traits is it's the game playing your character for you. There should be no traits where a health point threshold automatically triggers defensive actions. Because the players should be making the decisions on when to invoke those defenses.

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Hell yes! Thank you Cal Cohen and team! Reeling in the power creep was more than necessary, I was kinda worried that you'd go too light on the original change, but what I see now gives me hope that things will improve! Thank you so much for your work and keep at it! People will be mad about their class getting nerfed, but your outlined vision is solid! Stay strong and keep delivering!

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This is a joke right? These patch notes cannot be serious...Everyone will run full trailblazer/dire now because power wont do any dmg whatsoever.

If this patch goes live its actually be the final blow that will kill the game mode...

When we complain about wvw balance, we are not talking about the power coefficients (in majority of the cases at least) we are talking about some classes being able to do a lot while others offer nothing to their groups.

These changes ARE HORRIBLE.What you will create is every group will not run:2 minstrel Firebrands,2-3 trailblazer scourges1 Spellbreaker.

Diversity will DIE completely.

Also. Why would you lower EVERY CC down to 0.01 co-eff?????Different CCs fill in different purposes.All this does is that it will make some forms of CC completely worthless because there will no point to use them since there will always a better one.

idk.I think you need reconsider this.For once, admit you might be wrong and actually reconsider before you push something like this.....

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Wind of Disenchantment still needs some look at, nerfing the target cap is a move in the good direction, but it won't change the meta for smaller groups. Big groups can just run in with warriors still and perma chain bubble on them giving no counter play to it. Should just reduce the range of the skill, so you have more space to move around it, or make it castable on the ground instead of chanelled aroud the caster

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Anyway, when thinking about reducing the impact of damage in this game, increasing base HP and toughness across all 9 classes seems way simpler than changing hundreds of skills...just my 2 cents.

Basically, these intended changes are throwing away more than 7 years of constant balancing by changing almost everything at the same time...

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@Vova.2640 said:This is a joke right? These patch notes cannot be serious...Everyone will run full trailblazer/dire now because power wont do any dmg whatsoever.

If this patch goes live its actually be the final blow that will kill the game mode...

When we complain about wvw balance, we are not talking about the power coefficients (in majority of the cases at least) we are talking about some classes being able to do a lot while others offer nothing to their groups.

These changes ARE HORRIBLE.What you will create is every group will not run:2 minstrel Firebrands,2-3 trailblazer scourges1 Spellbreaker.

Diversity will DIE completely.

Also. Why would you lower EVERY CC down to 0.01 co-eff?????Different CCs fill in different purposes.All this does is that it will make some forms of CC completely worthless because there will no point to use them since there will always a better one.

idk.I think you need reconsider this.For once, admit you might be wrong and actually reconsider before you push something like this.....

no you won't because scrapper's purity of purpose still has no icd, their cleanses didn't get touched.

these changes are gonna do the exact opposite of killing the game, they will goddamn change it after 2 and half years of firebrand scourge spellbreaker weaver filling 90% of map slots.

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Sounds like going forward they can make adjustments faster and on a more regular pace so they can respond to the meta. Overall i agree with a lower baseline damage for the harder hitting skills and having to combo things for max damage rather then just hitting a single button. I also agree with hard CC loosing most of its damage, that should be your setup, it should not be downing people before you even hit with your burst.

I still would like to see some of the skills that do too many things in one button press get addressed, but that should come in future patches.

Gotta start somewhere.

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@RedBaron.6058 said:

@RedBaron.6058 said:Classes are so different in GW2 that applying the same damage reduction across the board is a bad idea.

I just hope that enough people remain playing this lovely game through this new balance and iteration process...You are right, but this was, for once, exactly what was advertised to its pretty pointless to get all riled up right now.

I also believe it was something that needed to be done. I just hope they succeed within a reasonable timeframe so that people have no objective reason to be riled up. If some people then subjectively goes off the rails, well that's on them. If people couldn't see this comming they have not been paying attention.

ANet needs to create 3 algorithms - PvE, PvP and WvW - to balance all classes considering a number of factors like Damage, Mitigation, CC, Mobility, Healing, etc.

For example, the value of mobility is different in PvE, WvW and PvP.

And if Damage is what ANet wants to reduce, then they need to balance the other factors to compensate across classes.Well they are doing that. I mean, if you look at what the first post says and then just browse over the changes you can draw some very crude conclusions in that they are slashing down all healing further than all damage. They are removing all damage coefficiency from heavy CC skills. They are giving boons and cleanses similar treatment around a 0.5 slash in stacks and durations along with increased cooldowns.

They are giving alot of the conditions a treatment of balancing out stacks versus uptimes with fewer stacks and longer uptimes (hopefully they couple this with some look at scaling, which I have no read anything about yet). So boons are getting a heavier slash than 0.5 combined on average. Conditions are getting less of a slash than 0.5 from the few classes I've looked at so far (builds I enjoy myself). Cleanses seem to get similar treatment as boons with both stacking and cooldown changes. There is very little mentioned about rips and CC. They are putting big immunity utilities on 5min cd.

So a (again super crude and sweeping) estimate summary on balance issues would be:

Tank > Damage > HealingConditions > CleansesCC > BreaksRips > BoonsCondition > Power damage* Note: I don't mean it will be better, I mean it will lose comparatively less.

Condition pressure > Condition burstForeseeable control issues = favours ranged playIncreased base tanks = favours melee playDecreased healing = favours supplementation with fieldsPower pressure > Power burstScalability issues with CC and conditions (damage and soft CC)* This is an urgent possible post-drop issue to address given the past 2-3 years.

I'm not going to go deeper into it than those very broad and not always entirely accurate remarks. It is up to you and your guilds to figure things out for yourselves B) .

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I expected so much more.Okay, we've got an overall reduction in damage and heal, maybe the fights will last longer.But there's no change in the class problems related to the WvW.

Examples :on Mesmer

  • All clones and phantasms of Mesmer are instantly killed, so all the skills related to breaking or generation of clones or phantasms are still useless.Except for roaming.

  • The wells of the chronomancer are still useless in WvW.

  • Necro pets are still useless and throw themselves into the aoe to die without having done anything.

  • Ranger, spirits same.

  • As a thief he will always be able to one shot surely all the class with not too much life or shot because the sign of assassin has not been touched.

And finally the problems related to the role of supports.

  • The druids, scourge heal, herald, elem and all will always be non-existent because it does not bring what the FB brings so easily. ( dispell, stab +other buff , instant)Having aoe healing, based on the field with an after cast is ridiculous we move all the time in mcm.FB heal, buff and dispell, always ahead of him in movement for the most part.With all the other healers, we have to predict hypothetically where our allies will be in 3s if we want to give them heal, buff or other.The worst being the balls of the ventari revenant totally random.

There are so many other problems, ....Too much hope.NB :I was expecting a reduction in damage, heals and buff depending on how many targets are hit dynamically,It would have changed the bus vs bus.Allways a dream.

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@LINKAZZATORE.8135 said:

@Vova.2640 said:This is a joke right? These patch notes cannot be serious...Everyone will run full trailblazer/dire now because power wont do any dmg whatsoever.

If this patch goes live its actually be the final blow that will kill the game mode...

When we complain about wvw balance, we are not talking about the power coefficients (in majority of the cases at least) we are talking about some classes being able to do a lot while others offer nothing to their groups.

These changes ARE HORRIBLE.What you will create is every group will not run:2 minstrel Firebrands,2-3 trailblazer scourges1 Spellbreaker.

Diversity will DIE completely.

Also. Why would you lower EVERY CC down to 0.01 co-eff?????Different CCs fill in different purposes.All this does is that it will make some forms of CC completely worthless because there will no point to use them since there will always a better one.

idk.I think you need reconsider this.For once, admit you might be wrong and actually reconsider before you push something like this.....

no you won't because scrapper's purity of purpose still has no icd, their cleanses didn't get touched.

these changes are gonna do the exact opposite of killing the game, they will kitten change it after 2 and half years of firebrand scourge spellbreaker weaver filling 90% of map slots.

Guardian cleanses got nerfed and having no cooldown on Purity of purpose isnt a solution to upcoming condition meta. Why? Cause the condition re appliance rate is crazy strong right now and wont be much weaker after the patch.If we were to go on a full condition blob right now then the condition appliance rate is 2-3x higher compared to what scrappers and firebrands can clear atm. Power creep is stronger for now so thats why we arent on condi meta.After the condi cleanse nerf and condition stack appliance mini nerf, it will not be enough. If they want to make it work then they have to boost up condi cleanses or nerf condi appliance rate even harder.

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@LINKAZZATORE.8135 said:

no you won't because scrapper's purity of purpose still has no icd, their cleanses didn't get touched.

these changes are gonna do the exact opposite of killing the game, they will kitten change it after 2 and half years of firebrand scourge spellbreaker weaver filling 90% of map slots.

you're kidding right? have you read these? lolno one else will be able to do anything anymore. Power dmg will hit like a wet noodle. Pair that with 3k+ armor from dire/trailblazer/minstrel... and you have power skills critting for <2k...

They could have just adjusted every class base hp and armor slightly to increase TTK and nerf a few problematic skills. This is over-doing. Plain and simple.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Executioner's Scythe: Reduced power coefficients from 2.0/2.6/3.2 to 0.01/0.015/0.02 (Above 50%/Below 50%/Below 25%). Increased stun duration from 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds

who tf are you gonna execute with a 500 dmg crit lol.

Defy Pain: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 secondsLast Stand: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 secondsEarth's Embrace: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 secondsFinal Shielding: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

I'm actually speachless...................

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Thank you so damn much! This preview gives me hope for WvW for the first time since late HoT. Please don't get discouraged by people getting mad that their precious classes are getting nerfed. The game needs a deep cut against the power creep. Keep up the good work!

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Here is my proposal:

  1. Forget all these proposed changes;
  2. Increase base HP and Toughness of all 9 classes, by a % adjusted to the class characteristics;
  3. Work from there and tweak base HP and Toughness of each class as necessary.

P.S. - Do not throw away more than 7 years of classes balancing.

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When we complain about wvw balance, we are not talking about the power coefficients (in majority of the cases at least) we are talking about some classes being able to do a lot while others offer nothing to their groups.

These changes ARE HORRIBLE.What you will create is every group will not run:2 minstrel Firebrands,2-3 trailblazer scourges1 Spellbreaker.

Diversity will DIE completely.

All of this!

WvW is actually more like PvE than PvP, so the balance should actually lean towards that. We do large scale fights. I mean we use kitten food and utility buffers ffs. It’s more fast paced than structured PvP so ‘some’ imbalance is necessary.

We need to diversify the roles of other classes in this game.

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