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Balance Patch Preview - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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With all this talk of profession balance, please remember to further evaluate runes and sigils. There are still some outlying overperformers, Tormenting Runes being the most notable to me, especially with sustain being brought down. Play a Mallyx Rev and tell me that the runes are balanced in any way, shape, or form.

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@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:With all this talk of profession balance, please remember to further evaluate runes and sigils. There are still some outlying overperformers, Tormenting Runes being the most notable to me, especially with sustain being brought down. Play a Mallyx Rev and tell me that the runes are balanced in any way, shape, or form.

While I agree, I don't think they have developed the tech to split runes and sigils between PvE/WvW, so we kinda have to compromise with the PvE crowd.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Arctisavange.7261 said:I really dont believe anet reads anything in their own thread. Experience in this forum has shown multiple times that the more new topics players make about specific concerns, the more attention those issues will get.

You think they’ll read this thread?

Prolly will read the title. After more ppl make more new topics about disliking anets need to make condition pirateship meta, should get more attention into their eyes.

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@Elementalist Owner.7802 said:Overall the power adjustment looks great, and I'm very excited to see this in action. I do have one concern, and that is with cleanses. While I think it's fantastic that you're looking to reduce the burst potential of conditions and extend their durations instead, I strongly suggest toning down cleanse abilities such as Manta of Lore and Fumigate, which are not listed on these notes. Having the right balance of conditions/cleanses makes for some interesting gameplay decisions, for example:

I have confusion stacks on me, and my opponent has all of their defenses on cooldown. They also have another strong condition they can hit me with such as chill or slow. I have a few options. I can choose to cleanse the confusion and attack them while their defenses are down, and hope to evade the chill/slow when they inevitably use it on me. Or I can attack through the confusion, sacrificing a chunk of my health but keeping my cleanse for when they apply their other condi(s), so I can cleanse them all at once.

Being able to constantly cleanse everything makes for easy-mode, uninteresting gameplay. Take my example and play it through now. Oh, I have confusion on me? I'll just cleanse that real quick. Enemy applies slow/chill? I'll go ahead and cleanse that too!

I do understand the fear of conditions becoming out of control again, so I understand why you would be cautious with the nerfs to cleanses. I had just hoped to at least see these skills on the list.

Youre speaking from a roaming perspective right now but you dont mention anything from blobbing perspective. Just because on roaming you face enemies who have anti condition utilities, doesnt make cleansing we have right now OP. Theres a counter build to absolutely everything, even in sPvP so youre looking things completely out of reality.

The fear of conditions is cause before the current power creep meta, there was condition spam meta with pirateship. It was so horrible, so dull and was blatantly killing the enjoyment in WvW mass scale fights. Back then the condi cleanse was also stronger compared to how it is now and yet you still died easily to conditions cause in a 50 man blob the amount conditions being casted was INSANELY huge. The condition re appliance rate compared to cleanse rate clearly will favor the first part by miles as soon as the nerf patch goes through.

Additionally nobody sane enough can make any sort of melee pushes with 1 or 2 seconds of stability, thats just insane. You got crowd control skills and movement impairing conditions hitting you from 1200 range and somehow that 1-2 seconds of stability is suppose to get you to melee range? What even?`

Anyway in mass scale PvP, WvW new meta based on current patch notes will be condition with full scale pirateship, something we experienced before and utterly hated.

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My feedback is that this is too extreme and too late in the game.

Stats are not changing. Neither is most abilities just their numbers.

All this will do is raise TTK, make certain classes that have been a certain way for years far less enjoyable (whether they are viable or not even), and ensures that classes with no mobility/defense will still face the same issues they always have. (Example, a fresh air weaver is basically toast now.)

Ultimately, I may represent a minority, but I don't mind the crazy sustain/damage we have currently. I like the speed of the TTK. I agree some classes need some tweaks, but overall, this just feels drastic and not fun.

Perhaps I am just getting old, but I've been playing this game since Alpha. I primarily only play wvw/pvp. I don't even think I've beaten zhaitan on any char. This smells of unfun and frustrating.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi Everyone,

Today we’re previewing the upcoming balance update. We’re starting with a bit of process and general thoughts, then following up with a pile of patch notes. Note that this post is identical for the PvP and WvW subforums (minus the changes to PvP build items), but duplicated for the purpose of more easily obtaining mode-specific feedback.

This post will only be discussing the competitive splits. Check out the rest of the update at https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96747/balance-patch-preview-global

The scope of this update ended up being slightly unreal in the raw number of changes, but there are only a handful of underlying ideas that were then considered against every skill and trait in the game. It so happens that there are a lot of those around here, and so a lot of changes ended up being made.

These changes are not final, and we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review. Some of the upcoming functional changes still need to be looked at for potential splits as well, but we feel that the overall list is in a good enough spot to gather feedback.

Future Balance Cadence

This patch is unusual in that it’s more about establishing a new paradigm than it is a regular balance update, and the result is a giant set of changes. Moving forward with competitive balance, we want to make smaller adjustments more often. The specific cadence for balance will always depend on our overall release schedule, but ideally it will be closer to every 4-6 weeks, while still having the opportunity to make minor tweaks outside of the regular balance update. The goal here is to have better flexibility to fix problems in a timely manner.

PvP and WvW

For this initial update, the bulk of the splits are being applied to both PvP and WvW because the underlying ideas are applicable to both modes. The end result is going to be radically different and moving forward we will be doing more separation and targeted adjustments on a per-mode basis.

Now we’re going to dive into more detail on some of the main targets of the update and our main goals moving forward. If you have no interest in power coefficients, damage calculations, or other assorted jargon you may want to scroll down until you hit the start of the patch notes.

Damage

For this update, we’re targeting a 2.0 power coefficient as the new baseline for big damage skills. These are the skills like Eviscerate; skills that exist to deal large amounts of damage and not do much else. Skills that provide more and more value in other aspects (cc, sustain, mobility, defense, etc.) will have lower power coefficients. In some cases, we’ve pared down the secondary value and in others we’ve shaved the damage. It really comes down to what the desired purpose of the skill is, and as such how much of the skill’s power budget should be spent on damage. The 2.0 is not a hard cap, just the general top-end for single hit, high damaging abilities.

One thing to keep in mind with damage calculation is the differences in weapon strength. For example, a 2.0 coefficient with an axe is approximately equivalent to a 1.82 coefficient with a hammer due to the hammer’s higher weapon strength.

With a marauder amulet and no outside modifiers, a 2.0 coefficient with a 1-handed weapon equates to about a 3.9k crit against a light-armor target. Our goal here is that players should need to invest into damage traits, slot offensive utility skills, and sequence abilities around might and vulnerability stacks in order to achieve significant damage numbers.

Condition damage reductions are a bit less math-y, but we’re continuing to push conditions toward less burst potential by reducing the number of stacks and extending durations where it makes sense. Some of this is handled on the skill level, and we’re also making heavy reductions to traits that apply conditions on hit, on crit, or on other conditions being applied.

Cooldowns and Durations

We want cooldowns to be felt. Longer cooldowns promote more calculated usage of skills; if skills are used poorly it should create an opportunity for the enemy to push their advantage. Shorter durations of high impact buffs have a similar effect. Skillful timing is going to be rewarded, and poor usage is going to be exploitable by enemies. In some cases, it’s still going to make sense to have a longer duration attached to a longer cooldown, but most of the time we’re looking at shorter durations for things like stability, protection, quickness, high might stacks, among others.

Sustain

Raw healing is always going to be closely tied to damage. As damage comes down, healing needs to be reduced as well. As mentioned above, we want to see more opportunity between cooldowns to push through damage, so we’re primarily targeting skills and traits with lower cooldowns or constantly pulsing heals.

Instant Skills and Passive Traits

Counterplay is important. Skills that have a major impact on an enemy player should allow that player the opportunity to react, which means that we want to avoid instant skills that do large amounts of damage or hard cc. In general, this means that instant skills are going to deal less damage or focus more on a secondary effect where applicable. Traits that fire instant skills, or that trigger an offensive effect under easy to fulfill conditions (on hit, on crit, mid-high health threshold, etc.) received similar considerations.

We’ve also done a pass on traits that provide automatic defensive triggers. Traits that negate incoming CC or grant hard damage mitigation are getting large cooldown increases. Lesser defensive procs (protection on cc, auto condition cleanse, etc.) are also receiving longer cooldowns or reduced effectiveness, though not as extreme. We want to promote more active gameplay and this update is a good opportunity to make heavier adjustments to these passive traits.

Patch Notes

Moving on to the patch notes. Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have some time to iterate. We look forward to seeing your feedback.

-The Systems Team

This is a joke right? If not, joke's going to be on you. This will absolutely push away some players.

I was pretty upset with this myself. I'll give it a try but I have a feeling this is the nail in the coffin.

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Nah they wont adjust it more then likely. As of now the meta based on balance patches is heading to full blown condition orientation which still deals a ton of damage, so either way the lords should still melt.Problem now is gona be also getting inside the towers or even keeps, given that they are sieged up and sieges like arrowcarts, cannons and mortars wont get any nerf on their power damage. That means given healing also will get nerfed, then its gona be pretty hard to sustain while trying to crack inside, especially if you also add in freecasting defenders on the walls or even a blob camping inside.

So in your case as solo, you better pray theres nobody with a AC inside the tower.

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@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@Arctisavange.7261 said:I really dont believe anet reads anything in their own thread. Experience in this forum has shown multiple times that the more new topics players make about specific concerns, the more attention those issues will get.

You think they’ll read this thread?

Prolly will read the title. After more ppl make more new topics about disliking anets need to make condition pirateship meta, should get more attention into their eyes.

On the contrary, people started leaving the game in masses when it prominently the melee meta. When condition came into play, people started coming back. I know melee players don't like to hear this but it's a simple fact. Most people do not share the sentiment of melee or melee boon-ball combat. It's about as boring as boring can get along with it being highly restrictive to other classes.

Barely anybody want to go back to the warrior/guardian meta of old. The only counter to that is condition, so if the melee players want to play melee, then their groups need to be organized in such a way that eliminate the condition users first engaging. But I already know what it comes down to, players want to run in spamming #1 with every boon on the book on them. They don't want to take damage, if they take any damage (such as a ranger hitting them for 1-2k), they scream to nerf the class. If they hit with the bunch of conditions because their group can bother to organize a couple of resistance-givers into their parties, they want conditions rendered completely ineffective.

Enough people have left the game already, the only way they can possibly tilt that back and hopefully bring more people in, is to tilt the battle in favor of ranged, condition, and/or ranged AoE. If that means for the betterment of the game that some melee players get mad, quit, and stop posting for unnecessary nerfs to classes that are already ineffective as is, then so be it.

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@Arctisavange.7261 said:Nah they wont adjust it more then likely. As of now the meta based on balance patches is heading to full blown condition orientation which still deals a ton of damage, so either way the lords should still melt.Problem now is gona be also getting inside the towers or even keeps, given that they are sieged up and sieges like arrowcarts, cannons and mortars wont get any nerf on their power damage. That means given healing also will get nerfed, then its gona be pretty hard to sustain while trying to crack inside, especially if you also add in freecasting defenders on the walls or even a blob camping inside.

So in your case as solo, you better pray theres nobody with a AC inside the tower.

Hmmm I hadn’t even started to think about siege dmg with changes to sustain. Gonna be so much fun to hit ybs objectives she says sarcastically ?

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Yikes. Good intentions with terrible execution. More frequent balance is good, but damage changes and cooldown increases miss the mark. You need skill and class overhauls entirely and to remove a lot of expansion content from WvW.

People naively whining about TTK won it seems lol. Final nail in the coffin for GW2's PvP scene is my guess.

This doesn't really seem to change anything about some builds being wildly better than others or any real facet of the gameplay or metas in general except for the fact that fights will just be about slapping each other until eventually someone flubs a rotation. There are now no high-impact skills to properly punish people with, and WvW remains imbalanced more than before due to a lack of accessibility in gear options. Sure boon access is lessened, but the windows of counterplay that were opened are massively cut down with the lowered damage values to core weapon skills, traits, and abilities that it doesn't really matter. HoT/PoF armor combos are going to reign supreme by larger margins than ever because they have way more innate sustain and just more stats in general. TTK wasn't the issue as much as some misinformed people kept screaming, and builds that invested heavily in damage were already weak. TTK was only a problem because external factors keep bolstering damage and sustain too much on specific builds and combinations that rode too heavily in both. Notably, shared boons, Warclaw, and food.

Tier7 food also just got even more significant. 10% DR and a push to having the most stats possible are going to be even more important because gameplay will be relegated to builds with high uptime for damage and sustain. To which, builds that already lacked either or one or the other were hard-nerfed, and a lot of stuff that made off-meta choices semi-viable cut down dramatically.

I'm also not seeing any changes to proc sigils which were probably the effects most guilty of lacking counterplay due to raw damage rather than traits.

You have to admit most of the HoT+ content needs to be reworked and nerfed hard. PoF especially. The core game is and was not terribly imbalanced and a refusal to revert the expansion powercreep and making broad strokes including attacking stuff including perfectly-reasonable core game/core weapon skills is just obtuse for the sake of being obtuse.

If you don't acknowledge that expansion stat combos, T7 food, Warclaw, and most of PoF designs were massive mistakes there's no saving this mode and frankly all this effort was wasted because the modes WILL die for good.

Your ex-pro players and AT winning scene, longtime core group of players, WvW fanatics and buildcrafters ALL near-unanimously agree with what's wrong and have been shouting for very targeted changes for years.

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Those tears here made this patch preview already worth. All the "one-shot macro power build" lovers crying and producing more salt than Helseth in a whole year. I really think the patch will be great. We may finally get some duels worth fighting or fighting back when someone sneaks up on you.

Greatly appreciate what's coming

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:Yikes. Good intentions with terrible execution. More frequent balance is good, but damage changes and cooldown increases miss the mark. You need skill and class overhauls entirely and to remove a lot of expansion content from WvW.

People naively whining about TTK won it seems lol. Final nail in the coffin for GW2's PvP scene is my guess.

This doesn't really seem to change anything about some builds being wildly better than others or any real facet of the gameplay or metas in general except for the fact that fights will just be about slapping each other until eventually someone flubs a rotation. There are now no high-impact skills to properly punish people with, and WvW remains imbalanced more than before due to a lack of accessibility in gear options. Sure boon access is lessened, but the windows of counterplay that were opened are massively cut down with the lowered damage values to core weapon skills, traits, and abilities that it doesn't really matter. HoT/PoF armor combos are going to reign supreme by larger margins than ever because they have way more innate sustain and just more stats in general. TTK wasn't the issue as much as some misinformed people kept screaming, and builds that invested heavily in damage were already weak. TTK was only a problem because external factors keep bolstering damage and sustain too much on specific builds and combinations that rode too heavily in both. Notably, shared boons, Warclaw, and food.

Tier7 food also just got even more significant. 10% DR and a push to having the most stats possible are going to be even more important because gameplay will be relegated to builds with high uptime for damage and sustain. To which, builds that already lacked either or one or the other were hard-nerfed, and a lot of stuff that made off-meta choices semi-viable cut down dramatically.

I'm also not seeing any changes to proc sigils which were probably the effects most guilty of lacking counterplay due to raw damage rather than traits.

You have to admit most of the HoT+ content needs to be reworked and nerfed hard. PoF especially. The core game is and was not terribly imbalanced and a refusal to revert the expansion powercreep and making broad strokes including attacking stuff including perfectly-reasonable core game/core weapon skills is just obtuse for the sake of being obtuse.

If you don't acknowledge that expansion stat combos, T7 food, Warclaw, and most of PoF designs were massive mistakes there's no saving this mode and frankly all this effort was wasted because the modes WILL die for good.

Your ex-pro players and AT winning scene, longtime core group of players, WvW fanatics and buildcrafters ALL near-unanimously agree with what's wrong and have been shouting for very targeted changes for years.

I will be helpful and remind you of the issues with low ttk in this game. Just one example...

@DeceiverX.8361 said:30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

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@"Arctisavange.7261" said:Anyway in mass scale PvP, WvW new meta based on current patch notes will be condition with full scale pirateship, something we experienced before and utterly hated.

Can you not speak for me, when you talk "we experienced and utterly hated". I prefer pirate ship any time over this "stack, stealth, steamroll" meta.

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