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Balance Patch Preview - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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Oh boy the condi meta war has come.

Probably be the usual suspects,

Rev, necro,guard

I'm all for nerfs but I hope you guys are thinking about the inc condition spam.

I think with just the CC damage nerfs that wouldve reigned in alot of crazyness as they would loose alot dps. But the cc nerfs and power coefficients and vuln removals hmmm Im worried it might be too much a power damage does only one thing while conditions have alot more utility and currently can be incredibly bursty.

Also I was hoping for some adressing of the the condi vs cleanse meta because it kills alot if build variety when your constantly worried about taking skills with cleanses rather than flavor or build craft and it also creats builds that are pretty much immune to conditions (i dont want condis to be unviable but it always seems like it swings too much to either side since the og specialization rework)

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300 secs on passive traits like Defy Pain or Final Shielding is just not the right path to go, people just gonna take something else and these traits will die out like Dune Cloak and Elusive Mind, if I play a mirage I would take Infinite Horizon every single time, this is just restricting the build diversity even more, consider rework on all of those traits to instead of making them completely negate all the damage for super long 300 secs cooldown to soaking up some of the damage like grant protection or barrier or new traits that reduce damage taken by 80% for 3 secs for a relatively short cooldown like 30 or 35 secs. This patch overall seems really barren and unhealthy, it is still just a number changing game instead of changing how a trait should work to fit a class's theme and a build's playstyle.

300 secs cooldown, people just gonna refuse to engage and wait until their cooldown is back on, WvW will be Wait vs Wait, hey you thief and mesmer procced my oneshot defense guess I gonna wait 300 secs or 5 minutes and then we will fight again, wvw gonna be even more boring and horrible if it is not pathetic enough at current state. The flow of the game mode gonna be badly damaged.

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@RedBaron.6058 said:Defy Pain: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 secondsLast Stand: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

Speechless...

As passive traits, that's ok. What wasnt ok was for double endur pain, the defiant stance mix in full counter and shield block + the eaveds from bulls and gs #3 all while being full zerker and still close to unkillable given a window

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I've stop playing GW2 for a while because of the current meta.All theses changes are on a good direction , to try to bring back teamplay and counterplay with skillfull gameplay and reward.
Just stop whine about "why you nerfed this ..." Cal and System team is trying to fix the issue of the current meta in WvW and this is the first step.I was very scepticale about all previous changes but @Cal Cohen.2358 and your team makes me feeling you're on the way to do great change.

You have my trust.

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@Jables.4659 said:Reducing Mirage's dodges to 1 is absolutely ridiculous.

The amount of Vigor uptime you can still get as a Mirage, coupled with Energy & Cleansing Sigils, would be broken if we were to keep two dodges. Means you would just spam dodges to negate the already nerfed Power dmg and then literally never die from Condi's.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@Traveller.7496 said:So basically you nerfed everything? If I didn't know better I'd say ANet was getting ready to drop some new elite specs that are completely OP and nerf every existing build to the ground to prepare for it.

No, this is just the thing they've announced months ago. People cried about too much damage in the game for years, now the damage (and healing cut) finally comes.

On that note: What I feared became true and Warrior Hammer is no longer allowed to deal damage. My build got a lot less interesting, but we'll see.

Ppl actually believing that we get an xpansion anytime soon, lol.

The hammer thing i feared too, wrote that in some warrior thread too. Now 3 out of 6 skills (with f1) deal basically 0 dmg, and wont even do anything if the enemy has stab or alot of stunbreaks.We will see what happens in future patches.

The biggest issue i see right now is stealt,because i didt see alot of changes that impact stealth uptimes. Paired with ALOT less dmg stealth classes will be unkillable. They will have an even easier time to reset fights. Yaaay.

Edit:just remove passive traits like endure pain or balanced stance, instant reflexes etc. And give us something usefull. 300s cd is so not fitting for a game like gw2

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7 years im hereHard to say this - those path what my love GW2 chose is so bad . . . my whole guild stop play from "balance" like thoseits only options in GW is to be a BERSERK and only that stats is place on the top

why there in game is clerick or even wanderer or nomad stats? if game is only for those who play DPS

healer in gw is a joke . . . i love this game i love to play healer or suport guardian but its so sad to cant make a full party of squad with full healers and suporter on rear ele on mid and fighters on front - i understand its a holy 3 mechanic but if those not work here ( if coop ) why in game outher stat

i use mechanic in game like TANK and know what it works - all mobs fallow me - but why to be a tank, better buff all the time dps and i kill enemies in 2 hits and move far and faster - meybe you say im cry but take 20 dps players ( rangers elementalist and guardians ) and go any way on map stack on boss or take 20 ppl with healers buffers suporters amd few dps type of players and know what ? meybe they go same far as 1 squad but 60% slower

RAIDs its the same sad proof about only dps is in the game - see tanks ? yaa with 1500-1600 toughnes or healer with 400 healing power - i got about 2k of healing power and its no use in this game

want balance ? delete all stats and give only berserkers

sorry for my bad english and want to say this what is pain in my heart

im so sad the patch of my love game go . . .

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Everything here is just as premature as the preview, which is to be further modified in the future. There is no harm to discuss on what is proposed, though, so here we go.

Increase in Time-to-Kill

Healing Skills (#6), which are the primary source of healing for many builds not dedicated to this aspect, will take a 15%~33% reduction in baseline over time. (Some common numbers are 15%, 17%, 20%, 25%, 33%.) Meanwhile, Healing Coefficient of some skills take a varied degree of reduction, from 20% to 50%. As for shared, outgoing healing in group setting, I'll just leave the calculation to others who are dedicated to and know better than me of the healer classes.

On the other hand, reduction in damage is much harder to quantify realistically. While control skills get a massive hit on Power Coefficient, they typically have a relatively longer cooldown, and do not make up as much total damage output with a few exceptions (for one, Reaper). A conservative estimation might be at least 30% baseline. (If you have a better overall number on this, please do correct me; though individually, as usual, your experience may vary.) This, of course, has not yet taken into account modifiers, some of which also get considerably reduced in their duration (e.g., Might) and/or effect.

If the estimation is correct, with damage being reduced further than healing, while the overall health pools remain the same, attrition might comes out on top as the new paradigm. A well-timed burst will still be prominent for the offender based on direct damage, if not even more so due to modifiers with even more restricted time frame (for one, Might), though a missed opportunity for the receiving end to mitigate the attempt might be just more forgiving than ever since the first expansion. Hopefully we are finally getting rid of all those one-shot builds with little means to counter.

Attribute Allocation

Regarding sustain, the effectiveness of Toughness will likely give way to Vitality due to overall decreased Power Coefficient and rise of Condition pressure as predicted by the community, though with limited combination of attributes, we might not see any significant shift as such. On the other hand, with reduced incoming direct damage pressure, giving up toughness in favor of offensive attributes might just become more viable, and Rite of the Great Dwarf remains the best contingency plan for groups intending to push their limit.

With the respect to Condition, do note that Cal Cohen has stated in the announcement that they will be "continuing to push conditions toward less burst potential by reducing the number of stacks and extending durations where it makes sense". Will this leave Expertise some potential, for that the attribute contributes more the higher the base durations are, or will it be completely neglected as how it is at the moment, due to constant cleansing and possibly Resistance, which might just start to prevail in response to the shift to condition pressure, or just the sheer enhanced baseline duration making further investment pointless? Will the attribute become actually viable? Is this is part of the intention to increase in variety? The developers have a delicate scale to maintain here. The same goes for features that reduce Condition Duration on self, which have long being obsolete and neglected.

Combat Dynamic

Professions with already abundance of active means to mitigate incoming damage will be even more difficult to tackle. The same goes for those with high mobility and means to kite their opponents. The time frame of an opening just might not allow enough damage to be done. That being said, not every class enjoys the privilege, or at least, not as much. Warrior, for one, has its Stance skills cooldown increased, though the class still has many other means to stay away from harm.

In PvP, mobility, rotation and plus-one tactic probably will become even more crucial for the same reason. In WvW, that's ganking for roaming, and singling out opponents from the group with control to create a ganking scenario in any scaled-up combat. The prominence of Stability stripping and prevention of re-application also rises, and Spellbreaker, albeit with Wind of Disenchantment restricted to 5 targets, might be the sole key for direct damage bombing to work out if at all in the future.

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Just re read them and yea, still gonna kill the game. Build diversity gone, play style options gone, wvw already bias to the bigger group. Lower spike mean harder to kill bigger group so now useless to do anything but blob. The longer ttk and Cooldown mean this will now turn into a extended lagfest of 1111 condi meta.

In truth you have made an effort but completely missed the mark on what should of been done. I’m actually ashamed that this is the “big patch” you have hyped up. It’s weak. We asked you to rope in some over preforming elites. Fix some mechanics to make them smooth to play, and add appropriate tells to certain skill.

What you did was further separate the community between pve and pvp/wvw by changing cooldowns, introduce the meta that everyone hated and caused a substantial portion of players to leave, introduce changes without actually considering the impact, example support chrono wvw, sceptre to 1 clone and quickness on shatter down to 1 second. This mean u nerf the quickness sharing from 2x2 + concentration to 1 + concentration.

I’m pretty sure there won’t be much community left soon if you release in this state. Far far to many oversights.

Stop bringing a chainsaw to the operating table when u need a scalpel

The game is supposed to be fast, rewarding, punishing. 300 second cooldowns? No boon duration on the necessary boons, no damage cc skills. All of you changes ignore the principles of the what the game is based on.

So now all we will get is a spam fest of cc as no stab duration. ( I know your supposed to be a new balance team so look at the history, you changed stab from perma to stacks. Everyone hated it as stab was useless and lasted second due to no cd on removal when blocking cc) you added icd to stop it being stripped insta. You change to stab duration puts us into this same situation. People will hate it

Condi meta, people hated it

build diversity, you always say you adore and encourage build diversity. This change outright deletes that.

Class diversity. This will be going too, classes that already underperformed compared to those that over performed all got hit with nerds too, so no actual balancing was done. U just make classes that have poor raid performance co considerably worse. And out of those any of them with weak raid condi have now been made useless.

Some people seem happy in hopes of future fixes, let’s be honest alliances was soon! And that was how many years ago. And future fixes of this quality? With little Insight and no consideration for how classes work, by making longer cool-downs promoting skill 1 spam. Giving pve patch notes looking interesting and ruining the wvw/pvp ones and more importantly introduction pvp changes into wvw. The 2 modes are different don’t mix the patch notes for them EVER, wvw is not based around duelling and roaming fights. It’s larger group fight. Pvp changes do not fit well

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no baseline grenadier? After 5 years of nagging by many engineers still not?What happens to the 0.5s fuse time of the "Short fuse" trait? it's just gone?incendiary powder nerfed even further after overnerf ... 1 burn stack for 4 seconds...ridiculous.The total removal of stability on "crystal configuration: eclipse" concerns me. (remove the second stability stack or increase the cooldown of corona burst instead)coolant blast already is a horrible healing skill, increasing cd from 20s to 25s makes no sense. 20s would make it competitive (and still lose out) with the other (nerfed) healing skills.

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@allshallperish.4620 said:wvw new linkings <3 and only 4 tiers now AMAZING FINALLY, and now all these notes telling us everything we wanted to hear, maybe fights will last more than 30s now. No more 1 shotting people hopefully giving people more time to react. Nerf to boon rip and damage and healing really good proposed changes. Still more to do but for once i actually am looking forward to the future of this game.

Coalescence of Ruin: Increased cooldown from 4 seconds to 10 seconds - no damage reduction, just cd

Nah, u will still die of one shoot.

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After reading this, I expect heavy condi tanks. This just change the meta form power to condi and it is the same cancer.The bigger issues are the stat combinations and elite specs, just sayin'.

Well, i expect nothing good for that "huge balance patch" and I didn't get disappointed.Anyway, I stopped hoping for some decent balance patches ages ago.May, 26 2020!

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So much for glass-builds, guess that also means no more burst-threat, less squishies = less downed, and yet again promoting number advantage, but at least we can now all enjoy the passion of endless no threat fights.

Owyeah almost forgot all the passive proc's doing damage on being damaged like retal,burn etc will all still be intact enough that on some power specs you'd soon deal more damage to yourself then attacking, brilliant ^^

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Overall the changes are a good. They are a move in the right direction. I was always in favor of reducing dps, healing, boon and condi application and boon and condi removal. Scarcity promotes skillful gameplay, while abundance promotes skill spam, where missing 1 skill is not as impactfull as it should be. We will have to wait until it goes live to see what coefficients need some fine tuning.

While the overall changes are great, there are some that I think should be reconsidered:

-Passive procs going to 300s. I support nerfing passive procs, but 5 minutes is too long of a cooldown for anyone to even consider using a trait. I believe that 180s would more fair.

-Elementalists' twist of fate going from 40s to 75s cd is too much. Considering weaver is already getting CD increases in sword #2 (water and earth) there is no need to increase Twist of Fate cd by that much. 50-60s would be fair ground. We have to keep in mind that there is no trait to reduce stances cd like other skill have.

-Mirage having only 50 endurance. I hate the current traillblazer scepter staff mirage that is god tier and requires nearly no skill to play, but that does not mean we should destroy the entire specialization. The nerfs to scepter #2 cd, staff #2 and #3, blink cd, decoy cd and the removal of stun break on evade are already enough to balance the class.

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@geist.4126 said:

@"Arctisavange.7261" said:Anyway in mass scale PvP, WvW new meta based on current patch notes will be condition with full scale pirateship, something we experienced before and utterly hated.

Can you not speak for me, when you talk "we experienced and utterly hated". I prefer pirate ship any time over this "stack, stealth, steamroll" meta.

Trust me, I never enjoy making these remarks, I prefer discussions here on the merits of what people say and how they say it. However,
who you are
actually matters in these situations. If you are an anonymous ranged player who enjoy following a pickup commander then your enjoyment of the game is hitched to the commander's enjoyment of the game. That makes your oppinion matter far less on these matters. If you are not that kind of player, then by all means keep enjoying whatever you help create. Just make sure that you actually help create it. So if you don't like being spoken for, make sure that you are in a position to speak for yourself. Alot of people make the mistake of assuming that they are a positive force by just being around which isn't necessarily true.

The problem with every pirateship meta is that they have made commanders and guilds quit. Melee metas have not. Oppinions beyond that is less relevant.

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