Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Balance Patch Preview - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

Recommended Posts

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:Hi Devs,

Can you tell me how are we going to fight against Bunker Builds with STATS like Sentinels, Knights, Givers, Minstrels, Dire + the ridiculous ascended foods that gives you 10% damage reduction + more stats in WvW????

Same as you always have.

I know you peeps are use to fights lasting from 1-5s, but that’s not healthy. And it’s not like the reverse is removed, you still have tons of stats and modifiers for damage. Not the end of the world if fights last longer... And it’s not like, just about, everyone had complained about damage creep at one point or another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fights aren't going to last longer people will still one push in zergs depending on numbers/setups, we just getting less tools to deal with outmanned situations cause rip bursting.Meanwhile everyone else is gonna fall asleep from boredom cause neither side will be able to punish any competent player anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Skill will become a bigger aspect of play in the new patch and it will help separate the wheat from the chaff.

You will have to co-ordinate better to bring a swift end to a situation, having said that if you're already dying on first push you're still going to die first push because it's sheer numbers and even a 30% damage reduction across the board isn't going to save you.

Roaming is affected too much at the moment by warclaw, longer fights = more chance of add ins which makes "roamers" perform worse especially with more warclaws chasing them while they can't escape. I doubt much will change here except small scale group fights might be more enjoyable till people get overwhelmed by numbers.

Overall I think less random one shot by 1-2 guys in a zerg though which is good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I think most of these changes are delightful. Especially changing cc dmg values is really wonderful and it was direly needed. Removing stability from professions that have other defenses is also good after the cc dps nerf. I always hated one shot builds but that should not force people to play bunker ones.

But there are some huge problematic points (for me) that I was waiting for a change:

-Druid is still meh in wvw. Actually firebrand seems to be the king of support still. Weaker than before but still the top guy.

-Chrono is still sad. Maybe with all the changes mesmer might become a mage duelist instead of an instakill forced profession. But still I loved chrono.

-Mesmer portal is still worse than thief portal (roaming wise). Still no glamour trait for mesmer.

-What about condition damages? Would they be nerfed as hard as power damages or will they rule again? It was a dark time when we had bunker condi meta. Confusion and torment should revert back to pre HoT versions but that is my personal opinion.

-Renegade. Really bruh?

We should wait and see the balance in the game. And I think there are (or should be) few more changes in the actual patch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is a step in the right direction. GW2 balance has always been a world of local maxima, where balance changes have just been poking the current state of things to try and move it toward some goal, but never really taking a step back to look at the game as a whole.

I think GW2 really benefits from a top-down approach like this, but I have two primary concerns. The first is that these nerfs seem to be done across the board based on the types of skills and traits that exist, but the reality is that these skills and traits fulfill different roles and have different levels of importance in WvW. So you're essentially nerfing things that are already underperforming; this would be fine if we had some reason to expect that these things will later be buffed, but it feels to me like this is the first step before moving back to the status quo of tipping balance toward a local maximum.

I think you should rate every single skill in the game based on its damage, cooldowns, utility, and reliability. A skill that's hard to hit with (aka easy to dodge) can have a higher power level than one that's much more difficult to hit with. Similarly with a skill on a long cooldown. A skill with a lower cooldown, or one that's hard to avoid, should have a lower overall dps because you'll be more likely to be dealing damage with it. I don't see anything indicating that this kind of top-down analysis was done. When the ultimate metrics are damage and healing, everything should be rated according to how much dps and hps it can deliver, modified by how likely it's going to be able to actually deliver on that damage and healing.

The second concern is this: "Condition damage reductions are a bit less math-y, but ..." I don't think there's a place for balance in GW2 that isn't mathy. There aren't a great variety of stat sets to be concerned about in WvW. You know what Viper's can do, and similarly for Trailblazer, Grieving, Celestial, Minstrel, Berserker, Marauder, etc. It should be more than possible to calculate the amount of condition damage that a skill will do, and that should be calibrated just like power coefficients are. And just like power skills, they should be rated on damage, cooldowns, utility, and reliability for a variety of possible stat combinations. Moreover, entire weapons should also be evaluated according to the combination of all their skills, and while it's not possible to make every weapon excel with every stat combination, you can at least make sure nothing overperforms (or underperforms) with stats that work best for it.

You have a fresh perspective on what GW2 balance should be, and you need to take the time to really understand the game. The chaos theory is much less pronounced than you might think; the chaos stems from changes made just like this - without a full analysis of all the facets of what a skill or trait can do - and the resulting fallout. A controlled, math-driven take that actually includes numerical stand-ins for softer factors like reliability is necessary if we're ever going to get to a level of game balance that's healthy, rather than one that players grow used to and learn to tolerate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

increase in ttkI think the nerf to heal skills was one step too far. its hard to tell how these changes will pan out on the field and it would be better imo to hold back on this until we get some real time data.

attribute allocationnope, they are making condis no longer burst but be over time like they were meant to be. problem is their cds are the same so they will be worthless in zerg fights, so nothings changed there. toughness stacking will be better then ever with the damage nerfs but people will still beat the 3k armor max drum so nothing will change there either.

combat dynamicyeah classes with kite and active defense will be much stronger. teef mains rejoice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me first say good job on doing and delivering what was promised to the community.

three things I am curious about however.

  1. With the big cut back on damage output across the board, are you going to be watching classes that have a high uptime/use of the protection buff? another -33% damage on top of the current power cut might make it feel a bit much.

  2. On top of that while it seems you cut back healing to match the power cut backs, shielding/barriers don't seem to be adjusted in the same way, so classes that have high application/gain on barriers might become far too difficult to kill. Were there plans to adjust barrier scaling as well to go along with the healing?

  3. main concern, you nerfed direct damage on cc's into almost non-existence and that's fine. However damage conditions that are on cc's remain unaffected by this change. Will this not merely create a very high condi based meta because their cc skills will still apply a large amount of damage from their condition?

    For Example: Magic bullet on mesmer. It can hit up to 4 people and apply 3 stacks of confusion, stuns the first target, dazes the second and blinds the third. It already has a low damage coefficient however the amount of damage you'll take from the condition application will remain unchanged. Simply put cc's that apply damage conditions aren't losing their main damage dealt on CC's where as power based builds are losing them entirely. Do you think this will be an issue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This game simply has no future. The only source of money in the game is in the hands of people who launch skins like pepegasus and the only game mode that has not yet been discontinued is in the hands of a guy who doesn’t know what he’s doing and can’t even present at least 1 good argument based on the players' willingness for the absurd changes he want to make. The game is in the hands of people who do not play, do not know the game itself and the players themselves. I read this preview and I'm sure you guys don't play wvw and don't know what you're doing, the only contact you have with the community is through this forum and maybe reddit, but many players never come here, and I'm one of them. Many will stop playing without even posting their feedback here, as millions have already done, and for ignoring players like these, like me (who are the majority and are not on the forum, are in the game, which is where you guys are not) why the game is in that situation. You are about to lose your job because you are about to kill WvW. Some friends of mine stopped playing after the last scourge nerf and I saw an entire guild on my server drop the game for the same reason, and now you want to nerf the whole game WITHOUT ANY REASON BEYOND YOU WANT.You are not trying to balance META (which was supposedly your job), you are not trying to create a new META either, you are trying to totally change the gameplay, and to encourage players to totally change their way of playing is the same as to encourage testing other games on the market and you will see the result of that.Increasing the cooldown of skills for no good reason, for example, is nerfying the action aspect of the game, if we wanted a more strategic game, with cooldown and longer fights /TTK, we would be playing wow or another 20-year-old game. If you force me to deal with this type of gameplay I will do it in the game that makes it better.I just don't feel like playing the game you guys intend to create with this patch and I'm having the goodwill to warn you, but many will not, and unfortunately my message that represents several players who will quit the game silently will not get the attention it deserves because it would demand a certain intelligence beyond the trivial.I love this game and would prefer it to be in an indefinite state of maintenance like GW1 than to see patches like this kicking my friends out of the game. This game simply does not need this patch, work thrown in the trash, waste of money that can cost the game's health.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kalaina.8245" said:I think this is a step in the right direction. GW2 balance has always been a world of local maxima, where balance changes have just been poking the current state of things to try and move it toward some goal, but never really taking a step back to look at the game as a whole.

I think GW2 really benefits from a top-down approach like this, but I have two primary concerns. The first is that these nerfs seem to be done across the board based on the types of skills and traits that exist, but the reality is that these skills and traits fulfill different roles and have different levels of importance in WvW. So you're essentially nerfing things that are already underperforming; this would be fine if we had some reason to expect that these things will later be buffed, but it feels to me like this is the first step before moving back to the status quo of tipping balance toward a local maximum.

I think you should rate every single skill in the game based on its damage, cooldowns, utility, and reliability. A skill that's hard to hit with (aka easy to dodge) can have a higher power level than one that's much more difficult to hit with. Similarly with a skill on a long cooldown. A skill with a lower cooldown, or one that's hard to avoid, should have a lower overall dps because you'll be more likely to be dealing damage with it. I don't see anything indicating that this kind of top-down analysis was done. When the ultimate metrics are damage and healing, everything should be rated according to how much dps and hps it can deliver, modified by how likely it's going to be able to actually deliver on that damage and healing.

The second concern is this: "Condition damage reductions are a bit less math-y, but ..." I don't think there's a place for balance in GW2 that isn't mathy. There aren't a great variety of stat sets to be concerned about in WvW. You know what Viper's can do, and similarly for Trailblazer, Grieving, Celestial, Minstrel, Berserker, Marauder, etc. It should be more than possible to calculate the amount of condition damage that a skill will do, and that should be calibrated just like power coefficients are. And just like power skills, they should be rated on damage, cooldowns, utility, and reliability for a variety of possible stat combinations. Moreover, entire weapons should also be evaluated according to the combination of all their skills, and while it's not possible to make every weapon excel with every stat combination, you can at least make sure nothing overperforms (or underperforms) with stats that work best for it.

You have a fresh perspective on what GW2 balance should be, and you need to take the time to really understand the game. The chaos theory is much less pronounced than you might think; the chaos stems from changes made just like this - without a full analysis of all the facets of what a skill or trait can do - and the resulting fallout. A controlled, math-driven take that actually includes numerical stand-ins for softer factors like reliability is necessary if we're ever going to get to a level of game balance that's healthy, rather than one that players grow used to and learn to tolerate.

gDPLk7K.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stealth wasn't really addressed at all. It is completely unbalanced. If you're going to go overboard on these nerfs here are a few suggestions:

  1. In combat you cannot stealth. You can use the blindness but it only will affect hit chance(say 50% miss chance)
  2. Thief portal - get rid of it or make it a so only the thief can use it
  3. While stealthed you can only go at 30% normal movement speed
  4. No more spiking from stealth. All characters perform a "Look at me spiking this guy" move. It should be considered an attack and negate stealth instantly on pressing "F".

Non-stealth stuff:Fix Line of Sight pulls and movement:

  1. The distance of the "flash" movement up onto objects should also consider overall distance that must be moved if they had to run all the way to the spot they moved to. I've watched thieves just flash up to a wall in SE and SW camps.
  2. Pulls Line of Sight needs to be massively fixed. Stop the pulls of someone down the stairs to up over the wall. Stop pulls through gates.

All of the above stuff needs addressing before the massive nerf hammer you are about to drop on everyone. And don't forget the condi hell that you are about to create.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cooldowns and Durations

We want cooldowns to be felt. Longer cooldowns promote more calculated usage of skills; if skills are used poorly it should create an opportunity for the enemy to push their advantage. Shorter durations of high impact buffs have a similar effect. Skillful timing is going to be rewarded, and poor usage is going to be exploitable by enemies. In some cases, it’s still going to make sense to have a longer duration attached to a longer cooldown, but most of the time we’re looking at shorter durations for things like stability, protection, quickness, high might stacks, among others.

Instant Skills and Passive Traits

Counterplay is important. Skills that have a major impact on an enemy player should allow that player the opportunity to react, which means that we want to avoid instant skills that do large amounts of damage or hard cc. In general, this means that instant skills are going to deal less damage or focus more on a secondary effect where applicable. Traits that fire instant skills, or that trigger an offensive effect under easy to fulfill conditions (on hit, on crit, mid-high health threshold, etc.) received similar considerations.

We’ve also done a pass on traits that provide automatic defensive triggers. Traits that negate incoming CC or grant hard damage mitigation are getting large cooldown increases. Lesser defensive procs (protection on cc, auto condition cleanse, etc.) are also receiving longer cooldowns or reduced effectiveness, though not as extreme. We want to promote more active gameplay and this update is a good opportunity to make heavier adjustments to these passive traits.

haven’t seen this mentioned, so here is my 2 coppers....This is going to kill WvW 50 on 50 fights dominated by skill lag.

How can you time spell casts as required above when your servers can’t keep up?

Also, what happens to players who have 300 ping? With shorter durations of channeled casts, what happens in the client when the server thinks the spell cast is over before the animation has begun? What about players whose hardware has a FPS of 25 in Zerg on Zerg fights? How can they time spells?Players in OCX and SEA time slots just got screwed.

While the proposed changes may be good for sPvP, and 1v1 roamers, map queue on map queue fights are screwed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Warrior has Endure Pain changes in WvW switched with those in PvP (duration from 2s to 3s in WvW? Its already 4s in WvW)

Shield Stance got its ... Power Coefficient reduced in seconds? Hello? Its a damn stance, it doesnt do damage.

Headbutt just got its 50% damage addition when stability is removed. With the upcomming nerf its damage is pretty much useless anyway, so I hope this bonus gets changed into something else

Kick should be boosted, otherwise this already useless skill is already less useful

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Thief

Acrobatics

  • Feline Grace: Reduced vigor duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds
  • Endless Stamina: Reduced concentration from 240 to 60
  • Pain Response: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 60 seconds
  • Hard to Catch: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds
  • Instant Reflexes: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

@Cal Cohen.2358 these are the PvP cooldown.. not the WvW cooldown.

IN WvWPain Response cooldown is 16 seconds.Hard to Catch cooldown is 30 seconds.Instant Reflexes cooldown is 40 seconds.

Now tell me who the hell will play Acrobatics trait line with your new cooldowns.

Thief has no place in squad, if not with Daredevil staff build.. now that Staff build will be raized down, and solo roaming with thief will be impossible cause new fantastic damage (50% damage reduction on Dagger autoattack chain, when now, with 3114 power hit for 900-1000.. 33% damage reduction on backstab that hits for 9,5k against full marauder thieves.. how it's a thief suppose to kill a warrior, a guardian an holosmith or a soulbeast?) What will be the place of thieves in your new fantastic version of WvW?

Pulmonary Impact makes 600-1900 damage.. pretty fair IMO, tell me the point in reduce this damage by 266%.. this will mean 210-715 damage. 210?!? I will have to spend 4 initiative to make 210 damage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you all at least at a visual for being able to see your passives on Cooldown for Quality of Life. Since its 5 minute cool down i at least want to know when my passive is coming back off Cooldown... That 300 second Cool down is going to be a pain especially when your server is constantly outnumbered ALL DAY. Add some more quality of life implementations for christ sakes..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...