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Balance Patch Preview - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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In general the patch looks promising. But there is one thing on warrior I doesn't like:The change for Full Counter goes (again) in a wrong direction.The damage was bad and is more bad now. The change of the daze is not necessary. (In my opinion you should nerf it, not buff.)

In team fights (or wvw) you can use FC brain-dead in many cases and will have a benefit. The counter play to FC is: Do not proc it.But that doesn't work, when more then one or two players throw around their AoE skills. Especially when they stay some seconds on the ground.As it is now (and will be after the patch) FC is too easy to use with too much benefit.

A better change to FC is:

  • Reduce the targets it hits to 1
  • Make the Daze a short but not too short duration (1-1.5 second)
  • Give back damage to FC

FC should hurt if you proc it, but not 5 people when 1 is enough to trigger it with random AoE. When you hit it in a 1v1 or 2v2: You really deserve the hurt!

As nice bonus:

  • Review the Revenge Counter trait again: With the non-existent dmg of FC the Damage boost makes no sense. Even with a higher FC damage, Magebane Tether is a better option. But you could remove the dmg boost and replace it with an small heal or condi remove. That emphasizes the sustain aspect if this trait.
  • Review Attackers Insight again: Is it necessary that the Spellbreaker has such a massive dmg boost to fulfill the role it's designed for?
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@"Cal Cohen.2358" *Reposting from WvW forum because many of the changes to WvW are similar or identical to PvP and it seems Anet is doing a disservice by splitting these discussions up Community asks for less damage, less healing, less condi spam, and less cleansing in order to address TTK. Something around 15-20% (not the usual "cut everything by half" crap you always do). And what do you give us instead? An entire rework of how WvW and PvP combat works!!!

I am all in favor of skill splits between the game modes, like the amount of damage/healing done, boon duration and stacks. Some of these are ok. They try to address those concerns.But you are changing the mechanics and feel on many skills as well by changing cooldowns, available charges, cast times, and so on. THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN!

Currently the only game modes I am playing are WvW and PvE and this is due to how in PvP nothing works the way it does in the other two game modes. Having to learn rotations and timing for a separate aspect of the game is severely off putting. With this patch you further entrench this philosophy and I for one ain't going to be learning 3 separate rotations..... per build.... per profession I play.... It's just plain stupid as hell!

The idea of making certain CC skills be focused more around the CC aspect, and other skills around damage is good. But as others have stated, there are no strong skills meant solely for high damage. Take Revenant sword skills 3-5 for example. Sword 5 has mobility so it can have its damage reduced no problem, Sword 3 had mobility and 1.5 sec of evade so it too can have it's damage reduced because as your current design ideas go you shouldn't be able to do it all. But Sword 4? That skill has all its damage and the immobilize effect occur within the time-span of a single dodge, and its highly telegraphed! That skill should stay as it is so you know skill is rewarded either for the player moving out of the way or for the Revenant trying to land it. The immobilize can have its duration reduced maybe but it too is part of the reward the Revenant has for getting it to land.

Furthermore, -50 endurance for Mirage in only PvP/WvW is so unbelievably short sighted. And again, it's such a massive change to how it plays in one game mode versus the others. I understand you want the spec to have a drawback SO MAKE IT ONE FOR ALL GAME MODES! And something not as ridiculous as -50 endurance, maybe cut endurance regen by 50%, or increase the cost of the Mirage Cloak dodge to 55 endurance points so the player has to wait for that extra endurance tick to dodge again in order to avoid the dodge/clone-gen to Shatter spam. Maybe you forgot that axe is the weapon conferred by the Mirage specialization and it is a MELEE weapon thus the ability to stand face-to-face is paramount for that weapon skills to work effectively. Unless of course what you want to say is that no Mirage should ever play as melee again, at which point just give us a new weapon for the elite spec, something that would actually work and wouldn't be contradictory to the way you want us to play the specialization....

Also, Prime Light Beam for Holosmith is an elite skill. Reducing the power coefficient from 3.00 to 0.01 essentially just make it into pure CC which makes it into a regular skill, definitely not something worthy of being called "elite".   

Tl;dr: Adjust TTK with less damage, less healing, less condi spam, and less cleansing. Split skills here and there to address boon duration and stacking. LEAVE MECHANICS ALONE!!! Cooldowns, cast times, charges, etc. should be the same across all game modes!

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Final Shielding: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

4 min+ for this skill cooldown? This for real? That long then any single elite in game. There's alot of changes so I didn't look threw all of it but only ele would get a 4 minute + trait cooldown.

This isn't even a passive life save at all!!Considering a it can be countered by an unblockable skill it just makes this trait 100% unless now.

Name 1 other passive life save that can be countered by an unblock able and only has a 3 hit max. There isn't any. Ele gets sh it traits compared to other passive invulns since day one and has always gotten the worst end of the stick so to speak.

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How much can you whine about stealth, when there are such cancer builds as perminvulnerability mesmer or 1 shot mesmer or an unkillable weaver.Why playing as a thief, you need to calculate the duration of stealth, cooldowns, distance, etc. as opposed to mesmer and weaver where any average player will make more impact.

Have you forgotten about renegade rev and berserker warrior specs? Or mb scourge. You won't see these classes in pvp.

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I don't think you guys understand how DH works in PvP. Deflecting shot doing basically 0 damage kills part of the coordinated burst it takes to "kill" someone. I don't care if you lowered healing a little bit. Classes will outsustain it. Also, now true shot will be on a super long CD. What is DH supposed to do to kill someone? I'm already practicing Rev. You guys might want to rethink the approach to DH

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@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Final Shielding: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

4 min+ for this skill cooldown? This for real? That long then any single elite in game. There's alot of changes so I didn't look threw all of it but only ele would get a 4 minute + trait cooldown.

This isn't even a passive life save at all!!Considering a it can be countered by an unblockable skill it just makes this trait 100% unless now.

Name 1 other passive life save that can be countered by an unblock able and only has a 3 hit max. There isn't any. Ele gets sh it traits compared to other passive invulns since day one and has always gotten the worst end of the stick so to speak.

They made that with all the passive life savers.But tbh. these traits are totally useless now and even before they were no good design.For now its fine, but for the future they should replace these kind of traits entirely.

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@"mrauls.6519" said:I don't think you guys understand how DH works in PvP. Deflecting shot doing basically 0 damage kills part of the coordinated burst it takes to "kill" someone. I don't care if you lowered healing a little bit. Classes will outsustain it. Also, now true shot will be on a super long CD. What is DH supposed to do to kill someone? I'm already practicing Rev. You guys might want to rethink the approach to DH

I think there is misunderstanding here. It is not that the approach is not correct; there is no approach. This is RNG at its finest.

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This is just speculation of course but I feel like I am not going to like this patch.

Those cd increase are just way too much... I know some people wanted a slower gameplay but I like the current one. As I said multiple you have room for a lot of builds and playstyle. I feel like the next one is going to be "oh I got hit by this ? Guess I better run or the fight is lost anyway. All my spells are coming back in >20s".This is especially true for healing. Healing Firebrand is a good example (not symbol or sage brand). The current one is fast, you can react to a lot of situations to help you allies. I feel like the next one is going to be more limited. Not as limited as druid but still.300s on some passives is way too much of course. Some were already weak / situational but now...It seems like some professions are almost the same (warrior) while other took a stronger hit. I was hoping for some rework or changes to make some profession work in both pve and pvp like druid instead.

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Big question btw !When do you plan to release it? A patch like this is going to mess up the ratings a lot so I would prefer to see it in between seasons and adjustments starting at the start of the season rather than in 2 weeks in the middle of a season.I know this is not the usual planning but this is going to be huge.

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Nerfs are good but I hope they look at the strength of skills/traits/weapons that are well utilized vs those that aren't. Blanket nerfs across the board may not be a good idea based on this.

If something gets nerfed that's weak to begin with to a similar level to something that was strong before, you'll still see people using the same strong stuff as before. Just my 2 cents.

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@Gryxis.6950 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

I think that is the trade off, they can dodge while CCed but they only have one dodge bar. It sounds a lot like something that would be in Guild Wars 1. This patch is awesome.

Except that this is way too harsh of a trade off, most trades off aren't as bad as this one. I don't think we're going to see any mirage anymore if this goes through, which is sad because id rather face a mirage than it being replaced by the one shot core mesmer or the condi core bunker mesmer, but it seems like we're heading in that direction

A few things to keep in mind:

GS had it's damage reduced. They likely won't be able to one shot you unless you've either taken prior damage or face tanked a GS4 without dodging the followup burst.Still unhealthy design imo, but it should be less frustrating to play against.

Mirage losing it's dodge hurts, but given that the overall power level of the game is going down, Mirage may not be pressured into dodging defensively as often as before. Considering the dodge can be used while stuned, their dodges have more value. Stunbreaks and stability got nerfed across the board, so Mirage's dodge starts to look a lot better by comparison. We'll have to wait and see how the meta shapes up. It's difficult to make predictions given the sheer scope of the changes.

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@"mrauls.6519" said:I cannot believe you guys didn't just rework the traits you made 300 seconds. That means it MIGHT proc two times during a match....

they could make all skills cd refresh when you die and respawn, will make the game more fun to play.

also 1 dodge for mirage cloak/IH is a really bad idea, just remove ambush from clones.nerfing already weak classes is a bad idea, like druid, chrono, guardian hammer and dh bow, their dmg is already too lowstaff thief spamming 5 will be meta again since its barely touched and they will spam it forever with the old powercreepyou going to remove concentration amulets already, like diviner/harrier/seeker, make the boons last at least 2s not only 1s

all the other nerfs are good

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@otto.5684 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:In this thread: Lots of people who only read the section for "their" class going "kitten this will be unplayable"....... having not read all the nerfs to the other classes.

Basically everything across the board got nerfed ~30%.

I like.

Is that something supposedly good? Also, if we nerf everything by 30% across the board, that leaves everything exactly where is, with just slower game play. Is this good? If a skill that no one uses gets 30% nerf, is that good?

The whole kitten point of this "PvP" patch was to take underwhelming skills and builds and make them better, while shaving boon duration and CC, some CC, and lowering the potency of some over performing builds. Instead it turned in another vanity project for Anet that most surely will leave everything a kitten mess, and is not needed to begin with. I am serious, this is almost a waste of 6 month with very limited class balance changes for this, that will leave will make PvP a mess for another few month. And create massive accessibility wall for anyone whole is not super invested in PvP.

When Ben said 700+ splits, I was like: "wow, some skilled Anet dev(s) is/are going through every skill and trait to figure out ideal tuning for PvP." Instead they gave it to an intern and told them to apply a 0.7 factor.

What did you think this patch will be? They stated previously that their main goal was to bring the powerlevel down across the board, and this patch does exactly that.Buffing underwhelming skills/builds would just make the powercreep even worse. Making the game slower at this point is a good thing!The ability to oneshot, or just generally spike damage/spike heal was out of control for quite some time now. Making the rest of the classes/build able to do the same by buffing them to the same level of stupidly broken wouldn't have fixed anything.

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@Aza.2105 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
  • Nothing seemed too outstanding to comment on, until I got to this:
    Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes
    = Woah woah! Is that... necessary? I mean a lot of people with long time aggression vs. Mirage are probably thinking "YEAH IT DESERVES IT. SCREW MIRAGE" but really guys, without the ability to double dodge roll when needed, the Mirage is going to frequently be caught in the kinds of bursting that it cannot avoid. I think Arenanet needs to seriously reconsider this very heavy handed nerf.

I think that is the trade off, they can dodge while CCed but they only have one dodge bar. It sounds a lot like something that would be in Guild Wars 1. This patch is awesome.

Yeah and during this time daredevil has 3 evade bar.Mean where is the trade off ? you think having only one evade justify to evade when you want ?Here will be the use case : hit the mirage, burn his scepter block, his evade then CC burst, GG you are done.They can dodge while CCed : have you ever try to lock burst other spec (particulary thieves.) ? Mean how did they manage CC ?Btw as long as we have clones perturbing people, mesmer will stay strong huh ?

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@viquing.8254 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
  • Nothing seemed too outstanding to comment on, until I got to this:
    Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes
    = Woah woah! Is that... necessary? I mean a lot of people with long time aggression vs. Mirage are probably thinking "YEAH IT DESERVES IT. SCREW MIRAGE" but really guys, without the ability to double dodge roll when needed, the Mirage is going to frequently be caught in the kinds of bursting that it cannot avoid. I think Arenanet needs to seriously reconsider this very heavy handed nerf.

I think that is the trade off, they can dodge while CCed but they only have one dodge bar. It sounds a lot like something that would be in Guild Wars 1. This patch is awesome.

Yeah and during this time daredevil has 3 evade bar.Mean where is the trade off ? you think having only one evade justify to evade when you want ?Here will be the use case : hit the mirage, burn his scepter block, his evade then CC burst, GG you are done.They can dodge while CCed : have you ever try to lock burst other spec (particulary thieves.) ? Mean how did they manage CC ?Btw as long as we have clones perturbing people, mesmer will stay strong huh ?

Daredevil doesn't have clones. The entire thief class was created to be squishy without evasion. Mesmer was created to feel pressure after their clones were destroyed. They weren't suppose to have access to the same amount of evasion as thief nor access to the same amount of stealth as thief. They also have a higher health pool than Thief.

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@Aza.2105 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
  • Nothing seemed too outstanding to comment on, until I got to this:
    Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes
    = Woah woah! Is that... necessary? I mean a lot of people with long time aggression vs. Mirage are probably thinking "YEAH IT DESERVES IT. SCREW MIRAGE" but really guys, without the ability to double dodge roll when needed, the Mirage is going to frequently be caught in the kinds of bursting that it cannot avoid. I think Arenanet needs to seriously reconsider this very heavy handed nerf.

I think that is the trade off, they can dodge while CCed but they only have one dodge bar. It sounds a lot like something that would be in Guild Wars 1. This patch is awesome.

Yeah and during this time daredevil has 3 evade bar.Mean where is the trade off ? you think having only one evade justify to evade when you want ?Here will be the use case : hit the mirage, burn his scepter block, his evade then CC burst, GG you are done.They can dodge while CCed : have you ever try to lock burst other spec (particulary thieves.) ? Mean how did they manage CC ?Btw as long as we have clones perturbing people, mesmer will stay strong huh ?

Daredevil doesn't have clones. The entire thief class was created to be squishy without evasion. Mesmer was created to feel pressure after their clones were destroyed. They weren't suppose to have access to the same amount of evasion as thief nor access to the same amount of stealth as thief. They also have a higher health pool than Thief.

Mesmer was created to counter rollface and melee thanks to confusion and on clones death effects. It just became a pale version of thief when playing power and has a boring passive gameplay when playing condi thanks to years of players whine.Now I don't care I will troll on other class like all top mesmers main who rerolled or stop playing if we are facing no gut hard counter while having less sustain.

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