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Balance Patch Preview - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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@"xxXLightningXxx.8476" said:"Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes"

Mesmer main for 7 years. Never mind the debatable changes to chrono over the years, but this?

Thanks Anet, looks like it's time for me to leave the game.

Yes, it's ridiculous. That is a big nerf in both ways defensive and ofensive. Leave you too vulnerable and mirrors don't help as you almost never reach them when needed in the right moment. They literally killed the Mirage in competitive modes as they did with the Chronomancer. How to make a specialization clunky in one step, remove half of the endurance in a game where dodge is a vial basic feature of its combat. Add that they also removed the stunbreak making the grandmaster a joke with a single dodge so a single clean of two conditions every 8-11 seconds as a grand master, at the cost of waste your dodge, lol. Is more a complement to remove control conditions when you need to dodge more than anything else. If we have vigor, others have Vigor+ and even 3 dodges and higher movility. The mesmers i know from my server will not play Mirage anymore, as they already don't do with Chronomancer since the balance team killed it and probably reroll. Not sure if few ones will accept act as portal bots with core mesmer instead of play something more funny and rewarding. I doubt it. Well, let see how the final patch notes come. But with that change, what they did with Chronomancer, etc, sure that i'll avoid to play any mesmer in competitive mode.

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What I am having a really hard time understanding is this: one of Necro's "selling" points is it's ability to counter boon spam, which is only a thing in competitive modes, so why is Anet taking skills that were designed specifically for competitive modes and nerfing the life out of them? Isn't is ironic that a necro has more boon corrupts/removal in PvE, where it is not really needed, than in PvP/WvW where it is VERY much needed?

Honestly, Anet, what's your thought processes here?

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@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:any cooldown longer than 90 sec, 2 min at most, in a PvP setting is an insult, imho. you may as well remove it from the game, it is completely asinine to trait a skill I can use once, maybe twice in a match, or once every 2 or 3 wvw pushes.

The use of 5 min CD's, imho, shows a complete disconnect from those who play these modes regularly. If you want the skill gone then delete it, but this is an insult

I second this. Not to mention there is no way to track trait cooldowns, how does that support "skillful timing"?

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Will revenant's incensed response keep its pvp version in wvw as well (5 might for 8 sec every time you gain fury vs 2 stacks for 4 seconds)? It's broken even now and it will be too strong after patch. Herald is the main offender, I don't think that the trait needs changes for core/renegade.

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I looove the changes to CC skills having power-co 0.01 always. This is the perfect way to go.I can't speak for all the classes, so I'm particularly focusing on Revenant. Personally, I hate how Shiro's overtaken the PvP sceneon Revenant, but I believe that is not the way to go:

Shiro

Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. - This is going to work against the design of Revenant, I believe. It's just too much energy for non-elite.My suggestion for nerfing Riposting Shadows would be to reduce the distance of evade by half and remove the Fury. I really get why Riposting Shadows is being nerfed - it's just toxic. But I personally don't want to find myself in a situation where I don't use the legend because of its' high Energy costs - this was one of the main Jalis' problems before balancing.

Phase Traversal: WvW will now use the PvP version of the skill (35 energy cost) - Again, too much energy. Reduce the range of the skill.

Problem with Shiro isn't the energy cost, it's that these two skills do too much. Change the functionality, not the cost.

Anyway, I love the changes and whatever people are saying, nerf everything.

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@"CelestialCat.6240" said:This "Endure Pain: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Increased duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds" has to be a mistake. The skill 'Endure Pain' does 4 seconds of invulnerability and 5 seconds if traited with Defensive Grand master trait 'Last Stand'.

Please make the following change to 'Endure Pain': Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. Decreased duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, and disables all weapon and utility skills while under the effects of Endure Pain.

We might just see an end to a core part of the meta exploit god mode warriors love making as warriors will no longer be able to offset their lack of defensive gear to a passive botted block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) -> invulnerability -> block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) -> invulnerability -> block (heal on block from Superior Rune of the Defender) combo.

Bad enough the heal on might exploit.

Buddy the heal on Might gain isn't an exploit...thats intended. Secondly, barely any Warrior actually runs with Rune of the Defender, because it sacrifices too much utility of other runes just to cheese something that is already going to be getting its heal nerfed. Thirdly, Endure Pain is getting a 1 second increase on its duration because Defy Pain (the trait) is going up to a 5 minute cooldown which the passives do sorely need to be reworked. Finally, Endure Pain does not function the same way as other invulns like Obsidian Flesh and Elixir S. Warriors are still susceptible to CC effects and Condition damage even while it is active whereas the true invulns, like those previously mentioned skills, are not.

Short version, Rune of the Defender was tried before...meh. Not worth it. If it was it would have seen a lot more use. Its entirely reliant on a player continuing to hit the block...and people can just stow cancel or stop attacking to not hit the block.

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Like the changes and i see that many skills/traits just got smiter's booned and i hope will be changed in the future.

Have to say that in pretty much every discord i am in, we've seen resurgence of activity and plans for reforms. Keep it up and people might actually come back.

As mesmer main i also have to complain about chrono shatters and mirage 1 dodge... Idk, seems a bit off.

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Please rework scrapper from scrach.Reducing hammer damage will result in less barrier generation, whole idea of scrapper just doesn't work and keeps proving to be faulty every time (first - condi won't benefit scrapper, now this).

Beside Engi in general has little to none access to Stability unless you go Elixirs. Please either rethink Stab nerf on Holo or give core engi another stability source from traits.

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All right, this seems like a radical amount of change, and that is an exciting concept. Things can only grow from there, correct? Well there are a few things I think need to be considered for certain classes; a major one being evasion up time.

Many classes such as Soulbeast, Thief in general, and Mirage, to name a few, already gain a lot of their bloated sustain from evasion, among other things. As a Thief main, it's obvious to anyone at this point Thief gets a lot of its sustain from underhanded methods. Stealth, evasion, and just general movement.Sword / Pistol Thief is prevalent right now, and the main reason it does well is its oppressive ability to lock down an opponent whilst shutting down counter play with evasion.

In a world where everything hits less hard, evasion based classes will thrive too much, and that's important to consider going forward.Daredevil's general evasion up-time will need observed. And from looking at the Thief changes, I can already foresee a potential rise in the Staff meta. Vault and Bound already sound overpowered in this new collective. I also see that the majority of skills have been nerfed on co-efficient by about 50%, generally. Vault is to be nerfed around 30%, and considering its exceptionally high base damage, it will still hit hard, while providing evasion in a build that already spams weakness output.The meta is simply RIFE with weakness right now, in fact. And it harshly affects damage output; that's another thing to consider, if everything hits less hard.Also, the condition damage nerfs seem little compared to the power. The burning nerfs are good, as burning has been over-tuned for a long time, despite its previous nerfs.I would still say other conditions could stand to receive a nerf. Perhaps a reconsideration of their overall damage in these game modes would be required. Reducing their up-time is facile when you consider their potential. They're called Damage over Time for a reason, but who needs sustained bleeding when you can get 2,000 condition damage and generate 20-30 bleed stacks on a Mirage in no time flat, even if for two-five seconds. That's creating an unhealthy condition burst meta where people run high sustain gear and get free damage. And people will.

Also, with a nerf to everything, you may need to seriously consider altering how food affects WvW. Suddenly 10% damage reduction food will feel much more noticeable, and now we have ascended food that generate higher stats on top.The issue with a highly ambitious patch of this regard is how much collateral it can cause within the game's core. Things have changed since 2012; power creep has not just been caused by specialisations.

This is mainly speaking from a roaming perspective. I cannot really comment in-depth on zergs, but I will say this: HoT's boon meta was disturbing, especially over on NA servers. You had giant Maguuma blobs running around with boon share Mesmers that were impossible to kill. Literally impossible. If anything that was the beginning of the cries for more boon strip. I think both boons and boon strip counter play are something that made WvW extremely linear in its approach to wide spread combat. Combat is mainly centralised around bubble play, making fights drawn out and boring in open field, as commanders attempt to out-manoeuvre, and laughably short in chokes. Imagine asking forty people to double dodge through a million corrupts and warding lines and expect all of them to get through. It's pretty unlikely for less experienced back liners. Maybe some prefer this. I personally don't.

Anyway, I'm less qualified than others to comment on zergs, but I think it's a highly volatile meta that is also extremely hard to balance in its current state, so it might just need reworked entirely.

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While not a huge deal, are guard's HP going to be reduced given the amount of power change on our builds? The first thing that came to mind was trying to kill the SMC lord with the iron guard buff. Its already really slow. The other thing is, that from a roaming perspective, capping camps is going to take roughly 20% longer at the least. That doesn't sound like fun.

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@"Arctisavange.7261" said:Leave throw mine skill alone also. You can practically corrupt over 100 boons every 12-14 seconds in total with this skill based on balanced patch.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/545476210

Yeah that would be ridiculous if all the boon remove was multiplied by 3, but won't Mine Field be staying at 1 boon per mine? The change to Throw Mine doesn't automatically roll over to other mine related skills.

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IMO, The key things I see wrong with this:

Elimination of "Concentration" attribute by reducing a ton of the boons to 1-2 seconds. Why bother running anything with that stat. For that matter, why run any healing gear?

Extending cool downs might play into strategic play, but large cool downs like them 300s ICD is disastrous. Those skills may as well get taken out or changed completely.

Increasing TTK would be better for base Vitality and Toughness to rise. Not every damage skill needs to eat 150+% coefficient nerfs for balance. However, buffing secondary effects (target count, stun, boon strip, heals, etc) for damage coefficient nerf is reasonable.

There's tons of damage going around, so I'm not completely opposed to regulation. That being said, I see condition damage still being viable and sustain taking nerfs, which still keeps TTK low when you factor in a condi bomb.

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@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big ass AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

But i suppose if you call playing full pirateshit where none of the sides couldnt have engaged cause of the constant corruption, then yeah i suppose you can call the fights lasting just a flimsy bit longer. Not sure what kind of brain dead person enjoyed pirate shit but something tells me youre one of them who did.

I see that you havent played this game at all. As someone who as played since launch then seeing your comment, you didnt even experience 2015 pre HoT meta lmao.So far this meta is far more better then the previous pirateship condition heavy boon rip meta we had.Does the current meta sucks? Yes.Is the current one better then the last one? YesDo we want the previous more horrible meta back again? NO!.

The new meta will be very condition heavy even after the tiny condition nerfs anet adds on the upcoming patch. You have no idea how many conditions can be thrown out right now if a full blob would play with skills that use condi as main damage. Right now youre cleansing conditions from power skills that has passive conditions as add ons, hence why the condi cleanse feels strong for clueless ppl who didnt play during condi meta.What killed 2017 condi meta was Antitoxin rune (which was nerfed to the ground) and power damage being more reliable. Now given also power will get nerfed, cleansing will get nerfed, boon duration will get nerfed, condi will make a return as there are too many active condition skills that also add passive condition effects.

Having no stability doesnt make melee pushes available. Theres a difference having stability for 4 seconds, over having stability for 1-2 seconds. What super human can put that 1-2 second stability to effect against ranged CC skills (theres a ton of crowd control skills in Gw2) that hit you from 900-1200 range, be real.

Regarding the boon removal. Have you looked into the skill called "Throw mine"? If not then take a look at this:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/545476210?t=

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@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big kitten AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

And now scourge has been nerfed so very very much because Anet is insistent on keeping AoE caps. Condi scourge will still barely because the dmg is non-existant. Most other condi builds are either melee or completely irrelevant to zerging.

But i suppose if you call playing full pirateshit where none of the sides couldnt have engaged cause of the constant corruption, then yeah i suppose you can call the fights lasting just a flimsy bit longer. Not sure what kind of brain dead person enjoyed pirate kitten but something tells me youre one of them who did.

I personally don't enjoy just following a tag hitting 1 repeatedly whether it's in melee or at range. Cause let's be honest if you honestly believe anything you personally do changes anything in a 30+ size group then idk what to tell you.

But it's fairly easy to predict how balance changes impact zerging due to it's simplicity.

Low dmg is good for melee as high dmg means you lose more hp while engaging. Boon corrupts/removal is going down, even if engi gets a memey boon removal (engi is also a melee power build fyi (both scrapper and holo)). In addition to this most CC skills no longer do dmg so the cc bomb that would happen while engaging is much more survivable.

I see that you havent played this game at all. As someone who as played since launch then seeing your comment, you didnt even experience 2015 pre HoT meta lmao.

Weird flex but okay.

Really though I will have you know I have indeed played since pre-pre-pre alpha, so you might as well just stop trying. /s

On a serious note, what does pre-HoT meta have to do with anything?

So far this meta is far more better then the previous pirateship condition heavy boon rip meta we had.Does the current meta sucks? YesIs the current one better then the last one? YesDo we want the previous more horrible meta backa gain? NO!.

I do, you might not but neither of us speaks for everyone, yet one of us tries to claim they do.

The new meta will be very condition heavy even after the tiny condition nerfs anet adds on the upcoming patch. You have no idea how many conditions can be thrown out right now if a full blob would play with skills that use condi as main damage. Right now youre cleansing conditions from power skills that has passive conditions as add ons, hence why the condi cleanse feels strong for clueless ppl who didnt play during condi meta.

You seem to have no idea how many condis a full blob can cleanse... Try zerging as a trailblazer build with arcdps on and see roughly where you fall, should be interesting

What killed 2017 condi meta was Antitoxin rune (which was nerfed to the ground) and power damage being more reliable. Now given also power will get nerfed, condi will make a return.

Nah what killed it was nerfs to every single viable condi build as well as people realizing just how easy it is to counter condi in a zerg, because of the way group clears work.

Having no stability doesnt make melee pushes available. Theres a difference having stability for 4 seconds, over having stability for 1-2 seconds. What super human can put that 1-2 second stability to effect against ranged CC skills that hit you from 900-1200 range, be real.

There's multiple skills that give AoE stab for longer in addition to many skills that give longer personal. Stand your ground being a good example.

Regarding the boon removal. Have you looked into the skill called "Throw mine"? If not then take a look at this:

In a few weeks throw mine will still be a meme, that comes from a power melee build, your favorite kind.

Thanks for a video I'm never gonna watch cause videos are a terrible source of information

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@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Finally removing the crutches that is the passive invulns/breaks

No more getting hit for 10k+ when you have 3.5k armor+

TTK means you might have to put more thought into things then just slam your burst and hope, this burst meta has carried people pretty hard, ofc they're gonna be upset about it being changed.

This definitively makes outnumbered fights a lot more doable, which is nice, this burst meta really really favored the ones doing the outnumbering.

Only bad thing is that tempest really could have used a few less nerfs and maybe even some buffs to bring it up to firebrands level.

Lol you do understand that right now given the boon duration and condi cleanse nerf in upcoming changes, it will be a full blown pirate ship with condition spam. Just like back in 2017. That meta was far more worse then the current one.

Lol you do understand that right now we have one of the worst metas imaginable.

On a more serious note, 2017 had a way better meta than we have atm. Long fights favors the better players more when compared to short for very obvious reasons.

The new meta looks like it's gonna be way less bursty than the current one, which is very good as it increases the likelihood of fights where skill matters more than numbers.

The current meta heavily favor high mobility builds which use a combination of bursting and resetting (running away), which leads to very linear and poor gameplay.

Zerging isn't likely to change much. Boons requiring more investment isn't a bad thing and condi actually existing isn't either. Melee shouldn't be weaker than before as actually closing the distance isn't gonna leave you half dead anymore, also corrupts/boon removal are getting nerfed.

Long fights in 2017? Wait what, was i sleeping that year? Back in 2017 scourge F1 ability with a big kitten AoE fields corrupted boons and was spammed 24/7. Meaning any sort of melee pushes were practically impossible, unless you were 1 pushing every enemy.

But i suppose if you call playing full pirateshit where none of the sides couldnt have engaged cause of the constant corruption, then yeah i suppose you can call the fights lasting just a flimsy bit longer. Not sure what kind of brain dead person enjoyed pirate kitten but something tells me youre one of them who did.

I see that you havent played this game at all. As someone who as played since launch then seeing your comment, you didnt even experience 2015 pre HoT meta lmao.So far this meta is far more better then the previous pirateship condition heavy boon rip meta we had.Does the current meta sucks? Yes.Is the current one better then the last one? YesDo we want the previous more horrible meta back again? NO!.

The new meta will be very condition heavy even after the tiny condition nerfs anet adds on the upcoming patch. You have no idea how many conditions can be thrown out right now if a full blob would play with skills that use condi as main damage. Right now youre cleansing conditions from power skills that has passive conditions as add ons, hence why the condi cleanse feels strong for clueless ppl who didnt play during condi meta.What killed 2017 condi meta was Antitoxin rune (which was nerfed to the ground) and power damage being more reliable. Now given also power will get nerfed, cleansing will get nerfed, boon duration will get nerfed, condi will make a return as there are too many active condition skills that also add passive condition effects.

Having no stability doesnt make melee pushes available. Theres a difference having stability for 4 seconds, over having stability for 1-2 seconds. What super human can put that 1-2 second stability to effect against ranged CC skills (theres a ton of crowd control skills in Gw2) that hit you from 900-1200 range, be real.

Regarding the boon removal. Have you looked into the skill called "Throw mine"? If not then take a look at this:

=

I think you underestimate by how much condi dmg is going to be nerfed. Like corruption is down like 50% (less random condies), torment of shade, dhumfire on shade all down to 1s and more things like this. Which means that condies are actually going to run out on their own a lot of the times. Other classes can only use 1-3 condies. I don't see it being that much of an issue.

On second look also throw mine buff is only on big mine skill.

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