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PVP mesmer changes -> Discussion ( ill edit in my thoughts later propably )


Leonidrex.5649

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@Moradorin.6217 said:Basically to me, it looks like mesmer is dead as a class for pvp and wvw other than GS burst if that still ends up working afterwards which is horribly sad to me. I really am at a total loss for words and cant really voice what Im thinking here due to forum rules. Not convinced the newest balance changes wont literally kill off what is left of the mesmer player base.

I'm pretty shocked at this stupidity myself. Nerfing things across the board is something PvP players have been asking for (although they may regret that decision!). But this?

Remember when PoF released and it was so important that the Mirage Cloak mechanic not be a downgrade to the standard dodge? That was a legitimate concern. So, where is that concern now? Now if you want to change IH into a mega damage skill that has this as a tradeoff, let's talk about that, huh? But changing the entire spec so that it's a sitting duck in PvP that also can't deal any damage because its damage output is tied to ONE DODGE? Can we please stop drinking at work, guys?

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On the subject of single dodge, just like how Chrono really needs further scaffolding and iteration following the removal of self shatter, mirage equally will need scaffolding to support the principle of single dodge.

ie, maybe there should be a greater focus on endurance regen rate (at the same time nerf energy sigils and adventurer rune in wvw/pve to 25%), so vigour duration on nomads endurance back to 3s. Maybe even have mirage have baseline 25% faster endurance regen - so the principle is shifted to one powerful dodge with endurance regain faster than Core/Chrono, but that cannot be chained, effectively being on a few seconds cooldown per use.

I'd go as far as saying with proper scaffolding maybe it should be a global change for mirage across all modes, for the sake of muscle memory and gameplay parity - because 2 dodge mirage in pve is going to play very different to 1 dodge mirage in pve/wvw which is beyond the realm of a simple skill split.

I think it's interesting and could work, but they can't do a Chrono - smack down this huge change and do nothing else to it for the next 6months-1year+... It needs additional changes and proactive iteration to support.

Edit - for the record, Im trying to look for the positive, while also being open to it being left at 2 dodges. As long as the end result is functional in all the game modes, with a variety of builds and weapons. I just hope they test this carefully.

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The trade-off for Mirage should come from somewhere other than endurance. The whole spec revolves around dodging and the Ambush Skills available when that occurs. It feels like a really bizarre design choice. It would be like making Daredevil's endurance recharge 50% slower all the time even though the whole theme of the spec is dodge modification.

I have to wonder what the point of Mirage will be if this change comes in.

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imo its kind of a lazy design choice it seems like the easy way out and not really a trade off at all.When a nerf is just that, a straight up nerf, it never sits well with me as i think there are far more interesting ways this could have been implemented:For EG:have 50% endurance but have it recharge a portion every time you shatter. Since shatters have their own cool downs this could make for some interesting game play and truly be trade off .

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@Fade.5904 said:imo its kind of a lazy design choice it seems like the easy way out and not really a trade off at all.When a nerf is just that, a straight up nerf, it never sits well with me as i think there are far more interesting ways this could have been implemented:For EG:have 50% endurance but have it recharge a portion every time you shatter. Since shatters have their own cool downs this could make for some interesting game play and truly be trade off .

problem with 1 endurace bar is that endurace gets wasted when you have 1 bar. and since mirage uses endurance for damage....it means you will ALWAYS waste damage and survivability

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Condensed patch notes:Removed Mesmer from PvP

Still pleasantly surprised they found a way to give Mirage a 2nd drawback without it effecting PvE so everything turned out better then I expected. Was hoping for bigger shakeups across the board on all classes though since we are never going to get another Elite Spec and this probably won't stop whine about Mesmer that will eventually seep into PvE patch notes.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:I crunched some numbers and new GS trait might actually lower damage for example, kekWI'm interested how, the berserker nerf seems stupid considering they claimed they were trying to buff Greatsword.

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@Levetty.1279 said:Condensed patch notes:Removed Mesmer from PvP

Still pleasantly surprised they found a way to give Mirage a 2nd drawback without it effecting PvE so everything turned out better then I expected. Was hoping for bigger shakeups across the board on all classes though since we are never going to get another Elite Spec and this probably won't stop whine about Mesmer that will eventually seep into PvE patch notes.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:I crunched some numbers and new GS trait might actually lower damage for example, kekWI'm interested how, the berserker nerf seems stupid considering they claimed they were trying to buff Greatsword.

Yes, it's very interesting how they have removed Mirage from competitive modes without touch it in PvE. Very elegant!!! Very simple. Leave it with a single dodge nerfing its defensive and ofensive capability, remove the stunbreak and laugh how clunky it is now. Another one to the trash with Chronomancer. As i have readed in some posts, mirrors aren't the solution as you usually can't reach them at the right time and distract you more than helps. If they were so useful they'd have nerfed them too. Anyways, with the improvements in other professions, even Mirage in PvE will be subpar now. Only for clean trash moves with the runes that recharge endurance and watch some nice numbers from confusion in few bosses, that is all. Well, that and the portal!!!!! BUT BUT BUT we have a PORTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder how the balance team accomplish to encourage me each time more and more to play other professions. Amazing! Well, at least i'll have some fun finding new builds to other professions as for my PvE Mirage nothing will change. Of course, i'll add our fellow profession to the blacklist of competitive modes after the next balance patch as i already did with Chronomancer, even if the core mesmer could work on low-medium ranks, it'll probably be obliterated against the untouchable gods. As Chaos, etc, was already nerfed. Sadly that seems the reality. We'll see in the final patch notes how we end...

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@Levetty.1279I ment the gs2, not the berserker, and I didnt read the trait properly, the -25% damage only affects gs4, not gs2.normally gs2 applies its full damage for each hit it does, now its damage goes down with each bounce. and since it bounces 6 times with trait, later bounces will be reduced by insane ammounts of damage. But its propably fine since its base damage wasnt lowered same as other classes did.

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One Week ago i thought i give Gw2 another chance, redownloaded the whole client, said hello to some friends...and now mesmer will be completly removed from competitive play...dear lord how much does Anet hate us mesmer players? Chrono fucked up...mirage one dodge...wow. Not gonna bother anymore and uninstall it again.

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It’s clear they want Mirage to use mirrors created from abilities to dodge. Which I honestly get on their thought process. The big problem for me is that they formulated these changes without thinking about the current state of traits and utilities.

For instance, Jaunt is two charges 450 units when it used to be three. Take away a dodge, give us back the original Jaunt (as an example).

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@phokus.8934 said:

It’s clear they want Mirage to use mirrors created from abilities to dodge. Which I honestly get on their thought process. The big problem for me is that they formulated these changes without thinking about the current state of traits and utilities.

For instance, Jaunt is two charges 450 units when it used to be three. Take away a dodge, give us back the original Jaunt (as an example).

Even more importantly, Mirage becomes way too dependend on Mirage skills. It reduces potantial synergy with baseline Mesmer considering we don't have any options to, for example, refill Endurance like Thieves. It's not that I'm against trade offs. I'm all for it. But reducing the innate evasiveness on an evasive spec feels weird. If you really feel the need, maybe not limit build diversity while doing it? I'd rather see Mirage Mirrors go but that's a lot more work, of course.

Some thoughts on Mesmer changes:

  • Ranged Mesmer through Domination: I like the idea. The approach is a bit surprising, though. It's not like Mirror Blade hasn't caused any issues with bursty set ups in the past. I'd rather see Mind Stab being more useful overall. I'm also iffy about the boon removal being linked to the projectile on pBerserker.
  • Vicious Expression: I do like it. Pitty, you can't trait it with Power Block to go for a Lockdown/Punishing build. That being said, both Necromancer and Spellbreaker are still much better at dealing with boons than Mesmers.
  • Quickness: We got quite some nerfs on all traits. Not sure how valid those traits will be outside of PvE.
  • Superspeed: In contrast to Weaver or for Engineer Mesmers don't really gain too many benefits out of Superspeed. I never cared for the new Master of Manipulation. Now, I will care even less.
  • Chrono-Shatters: Still so inconvenient I won't touch it unless I want to play a mindless Phantasm build in PvE.
  • Sword MH: Its damage was on the lower side already. I wished we didn't get a 50% shave there.

Overall thoughts:

  • Damage: I do like the nerfs on the damage side at least for PvP. Not so sure about WvW because I rarely play it.
  • Passive traits: I do like those 300s CD traits. However, traits like Desperate Decoy were aweful anyway. Different story for Warrior stances, though.

Overall, I'm not as excited by the changes overall as I hoped (not talking about just Mesmer here). But I guess you have to start somewhere even if it is just by tuning down numbers?

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Currently the drawback to having such a powerful dodge mechanic is the lack of mobility. Why doesn't Anet just double down on it and remove the super-speed entirely with movement speed only coming from other skills/boons? This would reward good timing, smart positioning, and strategy on whether to use a dodge or use another utility like Blink, Jaunt, Sand Through Glass, Illusionary Ambush, etc. Hell, even give mirage a base -25% endurance regeneration while at it, but the two dodges should be preserved considering that for Mirage it's not just a defensive mechanic but an offensive one too. Maybe give back that 3rd charge for Jaunt to enforce mobility > dodge spam.

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@"Cpt Crunch.7058" said:Currently the drawback to having such a powerful dodge mechanic is the lack of mobility. Why doesn't Anet just double down on it and remove the super-speed entirely with movement speed only coming from other skills/boons? This would reward good timing, smart positioning, and strategy on whether to use a dodge or use another utility like Blink, Jaunt, Sand Through Glass, Illusionary Ambush, etc.? Hell, even give mirage a base -25% endurance regeneration while at it, but the two dodges should be preserved considering that for Mirage it's not just a defensive mechanic but an offensive one too. Maybe give back that 3rd charge for Jaunt to enforce mobility > dodge spam.

becouse removing superspeed from mirage cloak would be a buff?mirage uses 2 traits as its "mechanic" meaning we lose 1 trait that other especs dont lose.

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

becouse removing superspeed from mirage cloak would be a buff?mirage uses 2 traits as its "mechanic" meaning we lose 1 trait that other especs dont lose.

True, but having a mechanic as strong as it is would be enough considering all the other changes happening. Good opportunity to make Infinite Horizon into that minor grandmaster trait I've seen suggested many times. Create a new grandmaster trait to replace the shift of Infinite Horizon into the minor slot. Could make balancing Mirage easier since now there's a common baseline to work with and make choosing a grandmaster something worthwhile rather than being forced to feel like there's only one viable trait.

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@Cpt Crunch.7058 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

becouse removing superspeed from mirage cloak would be a buff?mirage uses 2 traits as its "mechanic" meaning we lose 1 trait that other especs dont lose.

True, but having a mechanic as strong as it is would be enough considering all the other changes happening. Good opportunity to make Infinite Horizon into that minor grandmaster trait I've seen suggested many times. Create a new grandmaster trait to replace the shift of Infinite Horizon into the minor slot. Could make balancing Mirage easier since now there's a common baseline to work with.

I doubt they want to balance mirage, they want to put it in the hole along with druid and chrono and forget it.core is the only hope now lol

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@Senqu.8054 said:If they bring the -50% endurance, i think its time for me to quit this.

Ive spent a lot of time/gold/energy into my mirage. Using a unique build that was nerfed slightly bit by bit over time. Looking at the changes, the endurance change is what would hit very hard, harder than all the DPS nerfs. Where all the damage is getting nerfed all around, DAMAGE wise it may balance itself out (still as strong as before in comparison).I could see if endurance is altered for Mirage, a lot of people will move away from Mirage and potentially kill the spec.

However time will tell, I need to remain positive :)

Last time I experienced a hard nref to a build/class like this I took a break and was lost on finding a new class for a while (Scrapper gyros used to make a field when destroyed that dazed anyone in it)

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:with the gs2 cd decrease and illusions you can gs2 + mind wreck every 5sec.

pve change, also f1 doesnt do much damage anyways

uh no considering its a buff overall and most everyone else got their damage cut by at least 30%. gs2 1.8 + mind wreck 1.0 x 2 every 5 sec is a lot of damage in this upcoming patch.

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