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(For the next patch) Toughness vs Vitality


Tayga.3192

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I'll just dump my calculations and ideas here. Feel free to discuss.

With the next patch, vitality and toughness on 4 stat amulets will be nerfed to 500 from 560. This has some consequences.

Before you start:

  • I used exotic weapons/armor stats since that's what I think pvp uses. Weapons use midpoint strength.
  • The formula for damage calculation is = (weapon strength power skill coefficient) / (toughness + defense)
  • A level 80 character has 1000 base power, 1000 base toughness and 1000 base vitality.
  • Different armor classes have 920, 1064 and 1211 defense respectively.
  • Before patch, critical attacks are always 187%, after patch they are 183% since we lose 50 ferocity.
  • 1 vitality increases maximum health by 10.
  • Toughness is always there but vitality needs to be healed.
  • Toughness doesn't affect conditions.

Before patch

Let's imagine a skill on hammer (midpoint 1048) with a power coefficient of 1 hitting a light armor target. If the attacker has 2050 power:No toughness: Damage done = (1048 2050 1) / (1000 + 920), approximately 1119 (crits for 2093).560 toughness: Damage done = (1048 2050 1) / (1560 + 920), so approximately 866 (crits for 1619).So in case of a critical hit, 560 extra toughness absorbed 474 damage. (This is less than Warrior's Healing Signet's two ticks)

Trying this again with a bigger attack, for example with a coefficient of 2:No toughness: Damage done = (1048 2050 2) / (1000 + 920), approximately 2238 (crits for 4185).560 toughness: Damage done = (1048 2050 2) / (1560 + 920), so approximately 1733 (crits for 3241).So in case of a critical hit, 560 extra toughness absorbed 944 damage. (This is less than Warrior's Healing Signet's three ticks)

560 vitality gives 5600 maximum health, which is healed in approximately 17 ticks from Healing Signet.

New question: Now that damage and healing is getting nerfed, which one gains more value?

After patch

New coefficients for our hammer skills will be 0.67 and 1.34, considering both of our skills got nerfed by approximately 33%. Also, now that our attacker has 2000 power and 500 ferocity, meaning the damage will be less. On the other hand, 4 stat vitality amulets lose 600 base health and 4 stat toughness amulets lose 60 toughness.Also healing signet now heals less per tick, 230 instead of 344.

Let's recalculate everything:No toughness: Damage done = (1048 2000 0.67) / (1000 + 920), approximately 750 (crits for 1373).500 toughness: Damage done = (1048 2000 0.67) / (1500 + 920), so approximately 580 (crits for 1061).So in case of a critical hit, 500 extra toughness absorbed 312 damage. (This is less than Healing Signet's two ticks)

Trying this again with a bigger attack, for example with a coefficient of 1.34:No toughness: Damage done = (1048 2000 1.34 / (1000 + 920), approximately 1463 (crits for 2677).500 toughness: Damage done = (1048 2000 1.34) / (1500 + 920), so approximately 1160 (crits for 2123).So in case of a critical hit, 500 extra toughness absorbed 554 damage. (This is less than Healing Signet's three ticks)

500 vitality gives 5000 maximum health, which is healed in approximately 21 ticks from Healing Signet.

Remark:

  • Toughness helps more against bigger attacks, but is useless against conditions. However, vitality needs to be healed to be of use.
  • After nerfs, 4-stat toughness amulets' values drops approximately 34% for small attacks and 41% for large attacks.
  • With less healing, a 4-stat vitality amulet's vitality loses 19% of its value (healing extra health from amulet takes longer).

New question: What if these low and high damage skills hit us 2 times?

Conclusion and my opinions

  • Considering two hits, 500 toughness absorbs 624 damage from 0.67 coefficient skill and 1108 damage from 1.34 damage skill.
  • This patch makes toughness a bit less value, but against power damage it is still better considering you will get hit more than one time: Only if you can't really heal.
  • If you can heal yourself or you are against condi damage, vitality still wins, but it also lost some of its value since healing is nerfed too.
  • If you read everything until here, congratulations.
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Well, that's good to know.

My idea of Toughness however was always that it's useful if you don't have the means to heal back up a lot or want to invest in Healing Power while Vitality is when you have a lot of Damage Reduction modifiers anyway that it doesn't matter how much Vitality you have even with low Healing Power although that if you do have the means to heal up all the vitality invested into it's also a better choice for skills like Infuse Light or Defiant Stance.

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@Shao.7236 said:My idea of Toughness however was always that it's useful if you don't have the means to heal back up a lot or want to invest in Healing Power while Vitality is when you have a lot of Damage Reduction modifiers anyway that it doesn't matter how much Vitality you have even with low Healing Power although that if you do have the means to heal up all the vitality invested into it's also a better choice for skills like Infuse Light or Defiant Stance.

I was hinting to what you said in the conclusion section :)However, in the end, vitality is better in terms of pure math so healing power will have more value after patch hits.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

With the next patch, vitality and toughness on 4 stat amulets will be nerfed to 500 from 560. This has some consequences.If I remember correctly, heavy-armor classes take 13% less damage compared to light-armor classes. I am not sure, but dont heavy-armor classes gain even more advantage now? I mean as this difference didnt change, but as theres less damage now? As you seem to like math & statistics :p maybe you, or somebody else, can answer that question?

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@hotte in space.2158 said:If I remember correctly, heavy-armor classes take 13% less damage compared to light-armor classes. I am not sure, but dont heavy-armor classes gain even more advantage now? I mean as this difference didnt change, but as theres less damage now? As you seem to like math & statistics :p maybe you, or somebody else, can answer that question?

If a skill did 100 damage to light armor, if 13% is correct, heavy armor would take 87, which is 13 damage reduction. Now if the same skill does 10 damage to light armor, heavy armor would take 9 which is just 1 damage reduction.The difference gets more irrelevant as the damage gets smaller.

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:Does that mean necro DS will have even more value?

If DS is Death Shroud, it probably will have more value since it can be "healed" as fast as it was before but it will get reduced relatively slower since damage is lower.

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I might be completely misunderstanding your post here....but I really don't get why you would argue for Toughness being more or less viable after the patch.

From my understanding, armor rating is a %-based damage reduction. So even if amulet values change for the patch, the general value of any one unit of armor will stay the same (since Anet didn't touch the damage formula).

The damage formula according to the wiki: (Weapon strength Power Power coefficient) / (Targets Armor)

  • Since the only value in this equations denominator is the Armor value, you can treat this value as %-based reduction.

Some napkin math

We assume the following:Weapon strength is equal to the midpoint of a 1H weapon: 922.5 (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_Strength)

We assume a Power stat of 2050 and make our calculations with a Power coefficient of 1.0/2.0/3.0 respectively

We compare 2 armor ratings:Armor Value A = 2167 (which is the base armor of a heavy armor class without any bonus toughness)Armor Value B = 2727 (which is the base armor of a heavy armor class WITH 560 extra toughness)

For simplicity we call the (Weapon strength Power Power Coefficient) portion of the equation "Gross Damage".

Power coeff. of 1.0:Gross Damage = 1.891.125

for Armor A (2167) that equals: 872,7 damagefor Armor B (2727) that equals: 693,5 damage

Power coeff. of 2.0:Gross Damage = 3.782.250

For Armor A (2167) that equals: 1745,4 damageFor Armor B (2727) that euqals: 1387,0 damage

Power coeff. of 3.0:Gross Damage: 5.673.375

For Armor A (2167) that equals: 2618,0 damageFor Armor B (2727) that equals: 2080,5 damage

The damage Reduction (for any Power coeff.) always stays the same. About 20.5% for 560 extra Toughness. Thats about ~3.7% Damage reduction per 100 Toughness.So even if the Amulets lose 60 Toughness...that doesnt really mean that toughness will be "less effective". They just lose about ~2% Damage reduction.

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@"Zenix.6198" said:snip

No, you are right but we are touching on different things.I guess some of my "toughness" words are used for "4-stat amulets with toughness in it", for example demolisher and paladin.

Since it's a percentage damage reduction, if you get hit by a higher damage attack, your toughness does more work.So, if the total damage is nerfed, toughness loses value as a stat since it'll block x% of a lower damage skill instead of x% of a higher damage skill.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Zenix.6198" said:snip

No, you are right but we are touching on different things.I guess some of my "toughness" words are used for "4-stat amulets with toughness in it", for example demolisher and paladin.

Since it's a percentage damage reduction, if you get hit by a higher damage attack, your toughness does more work.So, if the total damage is nerfed, toughness loses value as a stat since it'll block x% of a lower damage skill instead of x% of a higher damage skill.

ah okayye, in terms of absolute number reductions, this seems like a fair point.Thanks for clarifying.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Tayga.3192all these numbers and none of the matter.you need to add up all the HEALING to the calculation.You can have 16k hp, vitality will push that to 21k.but you need to think about healing.if in 30s duel one can heal for 12k, it means that baseline you had 28k, and with amulet only 33k.in that scenario toughtness is MUUUUUCH better.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:all these numbers and none of the matter.you need to add up all the HEALING to the calculation.You can have 16k hp, vitality will push that to 21k.but you need to think about healing.if in 30s duel one can heal for 12k, it means that baseline you had 28k, and with amulet only 33k.in that scenario toughtness is MUUUUUCH better.

If you read it again, you will see I said the exact same thing.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:all these numbers and none of the matter.you need to add up all the HEALING to the calculation.You can have 16k hp, vitality will push that to 21k.but you need to think about healing.if in 30s duel one can heal for 12k, it means that baseline you had 28k, and with amulet only 33k.in that scenario toughtness is MUUUUUCH better.

If you read it again, you will see I said the exact same thing.

I did some quick math.demolisher provides 7350 worth of HP value in def when you take 30k dmg over its duration ( mesmer so low def )the longer the fight goes, the more and more usefull toughtness is compared to vitality, this CANT be calculated realistically.only way to do that would be to make 1v1 duel, and record ALL healing recived and get actuall HP number.

Speaking of duels, in 30s+ duel most classes heal 12k from their healing skill alone, add aditional healing from regen/other sources, and you end up with closer to 20kagainst power builds will provide twice the value as long as you dont get instagibbed.against condi its hard to say, becouse alot of the condi builds apply some power damage ( depends alot on might )its hard to calculate how much warrior can heal in 1v1 for example, 19k base, 300+ from signet each sec, ¬150 from each might? how often do you get it? how often do you crit etc etcBut realistically we dont need to know the numbers.toughness>vitality unless1 you get 1shoted without vitality ( thie/ele could be due to low HP + possible against guard but less due to prot and bigger toughtness as base )or 2 oponents are HEAVY condi, and even then i bet its propably just better to use more cleansing with sigil/utilities.1 good cleanse will provide more then 5k from amulet anyways.

What I would be more interested is toughness vs healing power, after all the changes.but it would be by class basis, and would take 4ever to do. nobody cares that much i bet lol.good read anyways

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Thanks for the write up!

I think both Toughness will still be an important stat to pick up on builds with alot of passive or "chip" healing.It's foolish to think that damage reduced across the board means getting bursted is no longer gonna be an issue.

If one picks up on Vitality only, it's really only to survive a burst and retaliate in turn, taking down the enemy before they themselves are taken down.

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:But realistically we dont need to know the numbers.toughness>vitality unless1 you get 1shoted without vitality ( thie/ele could be due to low HP + possible against guard but less due to prot and bigger toughtness as base )or 2 oponents are HEAVY condi, and even then i bet its propably just better to use more cleansing with sigil/utilities.I agree on that as well.My main "point" was that toughness AND vitality are less valuable compared to before, which means "passive" defense has lost value compared to before.

What I would be more interested is toughness vs healing power, after all the changes.That's also a good point, since toughness + healing power amulets are gone AFAIK, like Cleric.

@Yasai.3549 said:snipIf you have chip healing, it's usually better to take vitality. If you don't, it's better to take toughness.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:I don't understand the point of this. damage calculation isn't changing, 500 tough is still a 30% or whatever damage reduction pre and post patch. soo...

Already explained:

No, you are right but we are touching on different things.I guess some of my "toughness" words are used for "4-stat amulets with toughness in it", for example demolisher and paladin.

Since it's a percentage damage reduction, if you get hit by a higher damage attack, your toughness does more work.So, if the total damage is nerfed, toughness loses value as a stat since it'll block x% of a lower damage skill instead of x% of a higher damage skill.

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@Tayga.3192 said:snip

30% is still 30%. armor doing less work does not equate to less value, unless you added time and healing to the equation and proved that vitality has more ttk. the numbers involved are irrelevant, whats important is the 30% that hasn't changed.

editmaybe we see a shift towards vitality amulets. armor along with other damage mitigation and healing will be strong tho.

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30% is still 30%. armor doing less work does not equate to less value, unless you added time and healing to the equation and proved that vitality has more ttk. the numbers involved are irrelevant, whats important is the 30% that hasn't changed.

editmaybe we see a shift towards vitality amulets. armor along with other damage mitigation and healing will be stronger then ever tho.

if anything toughtness should get better, since combat will be less bursty. Unless condi becomes more widely used

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Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

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@saerni.2584 said:Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

honest question, do you even understand how toughness works?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

honest question, do you even understand how toughness works?

What exactly do you disagree with here? If I take a 22k without toughness now, and 18k with toughness, I’m dead either way so it’s a wasted stat.

Large HP pool professions can also get the largest potential benefit from toughness in extended fights because they can take the most hits and thus mitigate the most damage over time. But in most cases that extra toughness won’t matter as much as their ability to heal/generate life force/barrier over the course of a fight.

I’d see more opportunities in a damage reduced meta for toughness to matter more to those high damage scenarios and also for extended fights. You’re not just getting “two or three ticks” of a healing signet. That’s the wrong comparison.

The right comparison is, because you get that off each and every attack, how much HP that saves you over your whole HP bar plus healing. If you can‘t heal, because you got killed 100% to zero without a chance, that’s much less HP and comparatively much less HP wiggle room for toughness to help.

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Toughness will be more important than ever vs. power damage because healing was nerfed.

A person could have 50,000 health pool, but with healing nerfed and nothing to mitigate inc. power damage, that person likely won't be able to sustain in the long run and will die.

However, a person with 13,000 health who had a lot of toughness value, maybe protection when needed, and juuust enough heal stat to make sure they were always healing a bit more than they were taking damage in the long run, will ultimately be able to sustain and not die.

Vitality is actually irrelevant beyond having only enough to ensure you aren't 1-2SHOT from a burst. Past that, you need to stack damage mitigation mixed with just enough heal factor to realistically cycle and survive.

Post patch when damage goes down along with healing, vitality will be easy to come by. Toughness will be more important for balancing the mitigation of the power damage vs. heal factor being able to do its job and provide sustained cycling.

In our previous patching people were only ditching toughness/vitality because damage was SO $%^&ING HIGH that it didn't really matter. What mattered more was being able to 1-2HKO that person before they did it to you, in most cases anyway. And that's exactly why damage is being cut now. But yeah, you'll be surprised at how powerful toughness stat will be in the next meta. Toughness will declare which classes/builds are sustainy an which ones are not. This will be especially true because they are removing stun breaks and other defensive mechanisms left & right, so things that want to be sustainy are going to have to stat for being able to soak more raw damage, rather than avoiding it.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@hotte in space.2158 said:If I remember correctly, heavy-armor classes take 13% less damage compared to light-armor classes. I am not sure, but dont heavy-armor classes gain even more advantage now? I mean as this difference didnt change, but as theres less damage now? As you seem to like math & statistics :p maybe you, or somebody else, can answer that question?

If a skill did 100 damage to light armor, if 13% is correct, heavy armor would take 87, which is 13 damage reduction. Now if the same skill does 10 damage to light armor, heavy armor would take 9 which is just 1 damage reduction.The difference gets more irrelevant as the damage gets smaller.

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:Does that mean necro DS will have even more value?

If DS is Death Shroud, it probably will have more value since it can be "healed" as fast as it was before but it will get reduced relatively slower since damage is lower.

You also only get half the dmg in deatshroud, something many ppl dont even know

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Toughness will be more important than ever vs. power damage because healing was nerfed.

A person could have 50,000 health pool, but with healing nerfed and nothing to mitigate inc. power damage, that person likely won't be able to sustain in the long run and will die.

However, a person with 13,000 health who had a lot of toughness value, maybe protection when needed, and juuust enough heal stat to make sure they were always healing a bit more than they were taking damage in the long run, will ultimately be able to sustain and not die.

Vitality is actually irrelevant beyond having only enough to ensure you aren't 1-2SHOT from a burst. Past that, you need to stack damage mitigation mixed with just enough heal factor to realistically cycle and survive.

Post patch when damage goes down along with healing, vitality will be easy to come by. Toughness will be more important for balancing the mitigation of the power damage vs. heal factor being able to do its job and provide sustained cycling.

In our previous patching people were only ditching toughness/vitality because damage was SO $%^&ING HIGH that it didn't really matter. What mattered more was being able to 1-2HKO that person before they did it to you, in most cases anyway. And that's exactly why damage is being cut now. But yeah, you'll be surprised at how powerful toughness stat will be in the next meta. Toughness will declare which classes/builds are sustainy an which ones are not. This will be especially true because they are removing stun breaks and other defensive mechanisms left & right, so things that want to be sustainy are going to have to stat for being able to soak more raw damage, rather than avoiding it.

Toughness only helps vs power dmg tho, if everybody starts stacking toughness condi builds are going to have a comeback as counter.

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