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Balance Patch Preview - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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And i just got back into pvp.And they take away a mirage dodge.Now i have one dodge....and distortion and then i guess i run?So legit how am i gonna contest any point its already hard enough as it.

So that mirage is dead and chrono has been dead what do i do play core?Definitely gonna try to get a refund on the expansions now.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

indeed, since mirrors are not good enough to replace normal dodges this would have been another idea for mirage redesign right from start. this way mirage would have still some sort of instant dodges (that is lit all mirage is about, having an instant dodge, you cannot take this away totally) by mirrors while having normal endurance dodges like everyone else. but i doubt that at this point anet can or will do such a change. you would need to totally rework how clones ambushes and ih function (at least you need to make them function on normal dodges then too) because if they do not give reward for each dodge they are way too weak as dodge trait and as spec mechanic compared to other dodge traits and other classes mechanics in the game. also it would be a spec redesign and not a trade-off and this redesign maybe would make another trade-off even unnecessary but other classes still would cry about mirage doesnt get anything called trade-off, no matter if it would make sense or not anymore. anet started with that, uuuhmm lets say unlucky, trade-off idea and can most likely not step back from it. so we have to deal with that mess and try to at least suggest trade-offs that are not unlogical and not contradicting to and for that destroying the base nature of the spec. nerfs are fine, destruction is not, esp when it destroys skillful gameplay more than nerfing the lame stuff.

I don't think Clones should have Evades
at all
.I don't think they should have direct damage or conditions either.They should just be there for visual clutter, confusing enemies and shatters.Infinite Horizon could be replaced by one of the minor traits and the first part of Desert Distortion takes that minor's place.

ambushes are not passive, theyre no autoattacks, theyre active, they only activate when the player uses a dodge button. the idea behind mirage is, that mirages work with clones by applying some dmg or effects like daze via clones to affect enemies and that by using dodgebutton as activation button for the clone attack.

if you want mirage to be able to do that, than you need to give clones a possibility to survive. if the resource mirage is supposed to use to fight enemies is perma dead duo to random aoe dmg spam then mirage would be left with nothing. so clones need a way to surive at least long enough to be able to function as an instrument for dmg and effects and get their ambushes at least half through before instant dying. that was giving by making them able to dodge vs the first part of their ambush animation. you still can interrrupt and cleave clones during the last part of their ambush animations because the dodge duration doesnt cover the whole animation. the problem with current condi mirage is, that the condi dmg from the clones amsbushes is too high. ez nerf is to nerf the dmg from the ambush clone skills that have too much dmg. as a trade-off you also can limit the clone ambush dmg spam by reducing the clone cap to 2 instead 3. a trade-off that make sense without destroying the spec. all other nerfs to mirage mechanic are unnecessary complicated and hurt not op mirage builds more than the op ones.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Foshizle.9802" said:I don't understand Shadow Arts nerf. It's currently a meta trait on more than 1 build, none of which really uses "Shadow's Rejuvenation" let alone "Merciful ambush".Given the overall nerfs and thief play style remaining the same, SA will be be even better in perspective than it currently is.

Overall stealth was barely touched, heartseeker ignored (it will hit pretty hard after these nerfs), shadow shot went from 4 to 5 innitiative,... thief meta strength received a very gentle slap compared to other specs.

But overall well done, this was needed.

This. If you're going to hit everyone hit thieves in sa harder. The last thing we need is this getting soured by permastealth.

Im usually not one for proposing thief hits because squishy, but by extension all thieves just got less squishy. They can take more shaving to SA in particular. Leeching venoms and siphoning can probably be dialed back.

Also people who wanted exorbitant nerfs getting them but also getting their cheese nerfed
WHEEZE

Siphoning? Like, Shadow Siphoning? The trait so irrelevant its a minor so that people cant skip it? Of all the things to nerf, Im surprised youd nerf the one thing that desperately needed buffs pre-patch.

Look, I'd rather no additional nerfs to thief. I'm just saying If it happened to get hit, it would be something I could live with. theres a small group of people going "REEE SA DAMAGE" right now, and I'd rather that than people gutting stealth access on the stealth traitline because of it.

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Long time ranger player here, I'll leave some feedback on the things I disagree with, considering that this can only touch numbers.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Ranger

Axe MH

  • Splitblade: Reduced power coefficient per axe from 0.4 to 0.1. Increased bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 12 seconds. Increased cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 secondsThe only reliable way to hit the 5 spliblade axes is to target a downed body at melee range, a nerf this hard to it's power coefficient is unjustifiable imo.

Axe OH

  • Path of Scars: Reduced power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.01I don't even use axe OH in pvp, but this change does not make sense because path of scar is a two part skill, and not only that, it's very hard to land in actual pvp. The actual cc is only in the second part, the pull, which is ok to lose it's damage, but the first part of it should keep it's damage, since it's not a cc.

Utility

  • Dolyak Stance: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 60 secondsThis skill is the main thing that prevents soulbeasts from becoming a cc sponge by all the cc there is in the game. I don't think this is justifiable considering our defense (weapon evades, mobility, passives, stun breaks) are being nerfed/removed and the 40seconds cooldown is already substantial and can't be reduced via traits.

Elite

  • Strength of the Pack: Reduced might duration from 10 seconds to 6 seconds. Reduced stability duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds

Have a honest look at all the hard cc and boon strip spam that there will still be in the game after this patch and tell me that 8 seconds of stability every 75 seconds for a elite skill with a 1s cast time and no stun break is too much. There is nothing less fun than being a cc sponge

Druid - in generalDoes Druid really needs to be nerfed this much to be at the same level as other support professions? You know the answer is no. I have not touched it in competitive modes for a while and will never do so after this patch goes live.

In general my problem with these changes for ranger is that they absolutely lack direction, and don't balance, they just reduce everything without consideration. Meanwhile thief largely kept the same mobility, stealth and spam ability due to initiative being untouched, necro gets a huge buff for it's shroud mechanic due to how power levels are lower now, and some classes get way too many buffs/compensations that look unjustifiable to me by looking at the plain direct and overall nerfs classes like ranger got.

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So what is the Firebrand trade off?

Why should a player choose to play Druid and not FB after this patch?

All professions have been nerfed following the same pattern, these changes will affect the Meta but will not change it.

EDIT:Anet considers the option to insert a limit to the amount of bullets that a bubble is able to absorb or reflect.

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@"Acelidon.1358" said:

Every other class got hit with similar changes, maybe not all in the mobility department but Soulbeast had it in excess.

Already talked about why its not excessive above, and nope, no other class got hit with mobility changes like that.

The cooldowns aren't that much longer, and when traited GS3 Swoop will be 12 seconds with its new 15 second cooldown.

thats a 6 sec cd increase to gs3 swoop, and an 8 sec cd increase to the soul merged swoop.

Will it take some adjusting to it? Sure, but you'll adjust to it. Much like a lot of other changes that will happen when this patch hits...it needed to happen.

Aye mate, "you'll adjust to it" you can say that about every change they're proposing, doesn't automatically make them good ideas.You can't strip away a classes defenses, not replace them with anything else and then say "hey, atleast when people hit you, they wont hit you that hard!"Either way, i've made my point here, i'm out.

I understand its not easy seeing a class you play get hit with nerfs, even though "bigger picture" everything else did as well. The fact of the matter is that Swoop, especially double Swoop, was extremely strong mobility on extremely low cooldowns compared to the mobility skills of other classes. Increasing their cooldowns respectively brings them more in line with other mobility skills. Swoop (GS) will be on a 15 second cooldown, 12 when traited and Swoop (Beast Mode) will be an 18 second cooldown. That is pretty on par with other mobility skills in the game...I really don't see how that is a problem. Its a change that needed to happen, just like Obsidian Flesh needed its change to happen as well, and how Warrior needed its Passives neutered, and so on and so forth. Their cooldowns, maybe Beast Mode Swoop, might get adjusted but give yourself time to adjust to the changes. Don't freak out over it, especially when something did need to be done about how strong they were.

@Genesis.5169 said:And i just got back into pvp.And they take away a mirage dodge.Now i have one dodge....and distortion and then i guess i run?So legit how am i gonna contest any point its already hard enough as it.

So that mirage is dead and chrono has been dead what do i do play core?Definitely gonna try to get a refund on the expansions now.

Looking at the changes as a whole yeah Mirage got hit pretty hard. However Core Mesmer and Chrono will likely see more play not just because Mirage will have been removed from holding a monopoly on builds, but also because some Core traits got some reworks and Chrono got some changes that will help propel them up a bit. Whether you agree or not, Mirage held such a monopoly in competitive play that it cut everything else out. While I don't agree necessarily with how they hit their dodge, something did need to be done. Ideally they would have just removed Mirage's ability to dodge while CC'd (no not Elusive Mind).

Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

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A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

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@"Curennos.9307" said:A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

Dolyak STANCE has gone from 40 sec -> 60 sec cooldown. It basically gives an unstrippable version of protection that works against condi damage, stability, stunbreaks, removes immob/cripple/chill and prevents application of immob/cripple/chill for the duration (5-6 seconds)

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GREAT and BRAVE move!! Probably best patch in history.Praise CMC and Ben.

What im concerned about is 2 things:We nerfed damage and healing, and increased big defense cooldowns.BUT a lot of DEFENSIVE WEAPON abilities AND MOBILITY tools seem to stay same.

As necro,I feel like my soft CC dont matter anymore against 1000 range leaps.Also cast times.Id rather see necro keep its 1 fluid instant cast but not have stupid long duration.

Fast flexible gameplay is better than slow battle against dps golem.And too many random blinds, i always feel like its RNG whether ill actually hit a crucial ability mid battle (OR WHILE FOCUSED).

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

Yeah you right, I hardcore brain farted on that. My bad.

Some of the point still stands, though. They want to limit Stability access, especially in the case of Ranger it seems due to its 10 Stability on Strength of the Pack paired with Dolyak Stance. It looks like most skills that give stability got 60 second CDs due to this fact as it is a pretty readily available skill especially for a Boonbeast running with boon duration and Moa Stance. Also hence the reduction in duration on Stability on Strength of the Pack because with enough boon duration you can essentially make that large stack of Stability last until Dolyak Stance is available again.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

Yeah you right, I hardcore brain farted on that. My bad.

Some of the point still stands, though. They want to limit Stability access, especially in the case of Ranger it seems due to its 10 Stability on Strength of the Pack paired with Dolyak Stance. It looks like most skills that give stability got 60 second CDs due to this fact as it is a pretty readily available skill especially for a Boonbeast running with boon duration and Moa Stance. Also hence the reduction in duration on Stability on Strength of the Pack because with enough boon duration you can essentially make that large stack of Stability last until Dolyak Stance is available again.

Fair enough. I hadn't quite considered the full extent of boonbeast's copy thing compounding stab issues. That said - I still would like to see Dolyak Stance's cooldown reduced and some of its effects reduced/removed (does it really have to have 33% damage ruduction?).

I get that it's a problem - however, I think anet's method here is just...making the problem occur less often, instead of actually fixing it? Dolyak Stance will still be pretty oppressive when it's used, and while I don't deny that this is...satisfactory, I'm not fond of how it's looking like it'll impact things outside it's 'problem space' so to speak. Like what if I run slightly different utilities and not as much boon copy? Suddenly one of my utility skills has skyrocketed in cooldown for totally unrelated reasons.

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@Curennos.9307 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:A little alarming how anet decided balance op skills not by reducing what the skill does, but by increasing the cooldown? This is...rather odd design philosophy, imo - cooldowns, ofc, should vary based on what the skill does and the overall power, but after a certain point you're...well, not really playing your class anymore, right? Just a collection of very long CD skills that...do stuff. Having skills low CD enough that there's some form of cohesion amongst the class as a whole is very important to 'feel', I think.

Like Dolyak stance. It does a TON of stuff - why would you just up the cooldown instead of removing a few of the obvious outlier effects of the skill?

Feels like anet is trying to address mechanical imbalance with numerical changes. Which isn't likely to work, for obvious reasons.

They did that to Dolyak Stance so as to sort of "future proof" it since other Stunbreaks got CD increases, especially Balanced Stance. They are trying to reduce Stability access overall so putting those on higher cooldowns limits their availability, so if they had left Dolyak Stance at a 40 second CD it would have immediately been propelled into the forefront for Warrior builds due to a 20 second lower CD with 10 Stability and a heal (that would be doubled if using Rousing Resilience) that could have its CD lowered further to 32 seconds with traits in Arms. They don't want to force specific skills into the meta by just gutting similar skills, they kept most everything pretty similar with one another based on certain criteria.

Dolyak Stance is a ranger skill. Dolyak Signet is the warrior skill.

Yeah you right, I hardcore brain farted on that. My bad.

Some of the point still stands, though. They want to limit Stability access, especially in the case of Ranger it seems due to its 10 Stability on Strength of the Pack paired with Dolyak Stance. It looks like most skills that give stability got 60 second CDs due to this fact as it is a pretty readily available skill especially for a Boonbeast running with boon duration and Moa Stance. Also hence the reduction in duration on Stability on Strength of the Pack because with enough boon duration you can essentially make that large stack of Stability last until Dolyak Stance is available again.

Fair enough. I hadn't quite considered the full extent of boonbeast's copy thing compounding stab issues. That said - I still would like to see Dolyak Stance's cooldown reduced and some of its effects reduced/removed (does it really have to have 33% damage ruduction?).

I get that it's a problem - however, I think anet's method here is just...making the problem occur less often, instead of actually fixing it? Dolyak Stance will still be pretty oppressive when it's used, and while I don't deny that this is...satisfactory, I'm not fond of how it's looking like it'll impact things outside it's 'problem space' so to speak. Like what if I run slightly different utilities and not as much boon copy? Suddenly one of my utility skills has skyrocketed in cooldown for totally unrelated reasons.

I think that may be the point. Boons have pretty much been the center point as to how power creep even got to where its been and reducing availability of boons is a step to help mitigate that as a problem. Reducing their availability and reducing their duration directly results in a reduction in boon uptime which Soulbeast has in quite a bit of abundance. The intent I believe is that while Dolyak Stance will still be oppressive when its used it will not be available as often and result in better opportunities for openings, which this is true across all classes at this point due to the increase in CD on similar skills, yet still roughly maintaining the impact of said skills so that you have to make smarter choices about when to use them.

I imagine many things will still shift around a bit depending on the practical use of skills and where builds go after the patch hits, but they have done this to establish a foundation to work from so that they can adjust accordingly based around the newer dynamic ingame.

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Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

Yes, we get it. This isn't going to be permanent, they will make changes in the future. Does that mean we shouldn't give feedback at this point? No. There's no need to try and justify/defend everything or generalise things to make the discussions about specific skills and classes appear irrelevant. That's why we're here.

If you wanna actually discuss the issue that I'm talking about..that rangers defenses are being stripped away without actually being replaced with anything, and hence my point on swoop, then let's discuss that. Saying things like "you'll adjust" or "longer TTK for all classes" or "give feedback on the whole" doesn't help anyone. The whole is made up of each individual component, and that's what members are trying to contribute towards.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi, we are nerfing all cc to do low damage

Just keep in mind, once this goes through, that you take a second look at the CC you just nerfed. Any CC that had secondary effects or conditional perks based on what its hit context was needs to get those conditions moved in some form to either their followup skills, or provide some kind of boon.

For example:Revenge counter will need a revisit.Headbutt will need a revisit, as it is supposed to do more damage if it removes stability.You may want to revisit Executioners Scythe, because it's a two second cast with an obvious animation and can only hit one person because it was based on spike damage.You may want to revisit palm strike.

I'm sure a bunch of cc also fits this bill, but those are the ones I know off the top of my head. Just making sure that stays on the radar.

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@"Acelidon.1358" said:

Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

Yes, we get it. This isn't going to be permanent, they will make changes in the future. Does that mean we shouldn't give feedback at this point? No. There's no need to try and justify/defend everything or generalise things to make the discussions about specific skills and classes appear irrelevant. That's why we're here.

If you wanna actually discuss the issue that I'm talking about..that rangers defenses are being stripped away without actually being replaced with anything, and hence my point on swoop, then let's discuss that. Saying things like "you'll adjust" or "longer TTK for all classes" or "give feedback on the whole" doesn't help anyone. The whole is made up of each individual component, and that's what members are trying to contribute towards.

I don't hate Rangers, I'm just not affected by the same bias as you. I've approached looking at this game's need for balance and looked for problems in every class, even the ones that I play. That is I'm a Warrior main and I 100% agree with the changes made to it. The passives on it needed a rework so giving them the 5 minute ICD pulls them from wide use to give them time to do so. Warrior Might generation needed attention and it got that attention, it will more than likely be much less after the patch. Bull's Charge got the damage reduction to 0.01 like it needed. Rampage needed its damage skills to take a damage reduction as well, and Reckless Dodge had its damage reduced as well. All things that I agree needed to happen to Warrior, and I play Warrior religiously.

As for the Dolyak Stance remark...I freely admitted that I made a mistake there in reading and owned up to it and continued the discussion afterwards. Dial it back, man.

So many people have tried to pinpoint the exact wrong things that were problems with classes for a long time, and some of the actual things that made problems on classes weren't all hit with this update but many were. I don't fully agree with what happened to Mirage's dodge, I think it would have been more appropriate to alter it so that Mirage can no longer dodge while CC'd, just as an example. I've spoken with long time Soulbeast players on the topic of Swoop as well and they have agreed that its a lot of movement on very short cooldowns and something needed to be done with it. A cooldown increase is the most mild of changes that will potentially serve to bring it in line with other mobility skills. Imagine if they had cut the movement directly in half on each of them? I get the feeling you wouldn't have been happy with that and its a much more drastic change.

Like I said, I understand reading about your class getting nerfed in some way can be frustrating, but objectively speaking its a change that needed to happen. Give feedback all you want, but keep in mind people can also challenge the logic behind it because sometimes people might not see the picture so clearly. I challenged it because the comparisons you made to double Swoop didn't make much sense.

Don't assume I hate anything just because I disagree with it, or you for that matter. I don't.

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@OddFinrir.6801 said:I like how they tried to nerf Elementalists into the ground so they do absolutely no damage, as their damage is low on most skills already, and completely forgot about the other skills. Anyone else see what they forgot? Same for rangers. It's funny and hits 12k in Marauders.

it's funny how you think ele is actually weak, when fire weaver is literally the dominant duelist in the game currently.It's also funny how you seem to have missed all of the nerfs across all of the professions and specs.FeelsBadMan

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@Acelidon.1358 said:

Lets all remember here that this entire patch was meant to establish a new baseline for the Competitive balance team to work from. Things will likely not stay the same and if they keep to their increased release cadence meaningful changes could potentially come much faster than every 3 to 4 months. That doesn't mean to get your hopes up that some overtuned skill, trait or mechanic you've had will get its change reverted, much of those were the exact problems that needed to be changed for balance to start to improve, but people need to keep in mind the the environment we will have after this patch hits is in no way the same environment we have right now ingame. Give feedback based on the whole, not just how you see your own class performing based on how things are right now because things will not be this way post-patch.

Based on this response and your earlier ones you appear to either hate rangers for some unfathomable reason, are secretly an employee in disguise who feels the need to defend every action they wanna take here, or straight up don't know what you're talking about seeing as you thought dolyak stance was a warrior skill.

Based on your response to their response, I can tell you're probably a player that was carried by how broken ranger and gazelle was.Back to silver with you boi.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@OddFinrir.6801 said:I like how they tried to nerf Elementalists into the ground so they do absolutely no damage, as their damage is low on most skills already, and completely forgot about the other skills. Anyone else see what they forgot? Same for rangers. It's funny and hits 12k in Marauders.

it's funny how you think ele is actually weak, when fire weaver is literally the dominant duelist in the game currently.It's also funny how you seem to have missed all of the nerfs across all of the professions and specs.FeelsBadMan

I'm not sure if this is a strawman argument, poor reading comprehension, or both. O_o

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"Ziggityzog.7389" said:Ooooh yeah I cant wait for the tears of the kitten birds being class carried by mesmer dodge all and condi trash, teef trash like infinite dodge and spam, or block everything heal everything burn everything guards.

Things are about to be much much better off in this game.

Don't worry, if you are convinced that currently mirage has a 100% dodge uptime, you will still get destroyed after patch. This patch will change nothing for you.

Being a reaper main for that long all I can say is having unlimited resources to evade damage like dodge, stealth, evade, and invulnerability due to the mass amount of skills and extra perks all while letting out massive condition farts is not what one class should have.

Either enjoy the spam dmg or evade damage forever. Not both.

Poor mes trash mains that have abused a broken class to carry them are the only ones that will complain about the mes nerfs. Everyone else from that I've talked to is quite happy.

All mes mains "wait you mean I cant just dodge, evade, stealth away from, or go invulnerable all game while gassing out conditions everywhere?"

Yes you have to choose spam or dodge all dmg not both. Welcome to my world lol

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I wanted to post this here in the main thread because I think this skill needs more discussion.

Hard CC like Bulls Charge should be the setup for a burst, not part of the burst itself. People are downing enemies right now with Bulls Charge with 5k+ crits. They land the CC and then they do not have to burst anymore, the enemy was downed.

A 3 second knockdown is VERY powerful.A 3 second knockdown combined with 900 units of movement, and a 1 1/4 second evade is UBER powerful. I dont really consider this skill as a utility, its really an elite level of power in its current state.

The fact of the matter is that this "Utility" does far too much for a single button press especially when you consider its cool-down.

Removing the damage was the right thing to do and re-enforces the set-up/burst game-play which is the right way to go.

I personally feel that Utilities with a very hard hitting 3 second CC should not be combined with a 1 1/4 second Evade, and 900 units of movement. Unless its an elite. I think skills like this need more consideration on if they are really good for the game.

EDIT: - Yeah, this should be a Physical Elite skill similar to Thief's Impact Strike/Uppercut/Finishing Blow Elite.

EDIT 2: - I would make Signet of Rage have a much faster cast time and be used more as part of a Rotation type of play-style, I feel like the shorter duration of the boons would be fair with a shorter cool-down. I think SoR would be a good contrast to BC if Bulls Charge was made into a Physical Elite. BC would be more powerful but on a longer cool-down and re-enforce the CC/Burst mechanic.

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