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Upcoming PvP Ranger Changes


Eurantien.4632

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@Cyric.7813 said:wish soulbeast have no active pets but 2 pets beastmode and pets swap button changes merged skills of chosen animals..

p.s. my english is bad)

Said this back when PoF came out. Would have been easier to balance and with a clear trade off from day 1.

Now they double down. One pet, and some of them get nerfed. As if bird leap needed a longer cooldown if you're stuck with that bird as your only pet.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:out understanding how everything else is impacted.

What I do not get :
  • No rework on druid or changes on cd / astral force so I have a hard time seeing it played. Also less healing and less damage means you build life force slower. Great job there.Yes no druid rework is embarrasing considering the state of druid in PvP and revenant got two! trait line reworks.But astral force generation happens per healing/damage instance and is always the same no matter how much you healed or damaged.
  • 300s on some passives. This is the 1st of april right ? Why not have something new ? Why not delete them at this point? They were already weak, I already was not using them. If anyone uses them after the patch well I do not know how we can help him/her.

All passive defensive traits got 300 seconds cooldown. They basically deleted all those traits which saw only play in PvP modes anyway without removing them. Pretty bad change.

Druid is gonna be crap now compared to ele even more noticeably bad What the heck.

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The support Druid dream will never die. I will try to be somewhat tame with my ideas since the whole scope of this is to bring down the power level, but the efficacy level between Druid and Firebrand will still be quite stark. Staff in particular is in need of some major love, so I may have gotten carried away with the buffs. The weapon is suffering an identity crisis though, so I think it needs it as Druid's ability to support outside of CA form is very poor. Aside from the staff suggestions, the goal was not to overdo it with the buffs. Seems like stab support won't happen at all. Spirits are beyond help in competitive modes and I like the idea of them becoming spirit weapons, but that's for another day.

STAFF

  • Solar Beam (Staff 1): Heal effect now additionally occurs in a 180 radius around the player. Does not affect self.
  • Astral Wisp (Staff 2): Now blinds enemies in a 180 radius upon arrival. If no enemy is targeted, the wisp will now circle around the Druid. Cast time reduced to 1/2s. Increased orbit speed by 50%. Improved tracking so it doesn't disappear due to terrain so easily.
  • Ancestral Grace (Staff 3): Now also grants protection (3s) to affected allies. Does not affect self.
  • Vine Surge (Staff 4): Now functions as a cone. Cast time reduced to 1/4s. Velocity increased.
  • Sublime Conversion (Staff 5): Now functions as a 240 radius ring.

CELESTIAL AVATAR

  • Cosmic Ray: Increased radius from 120 to 180.
  • Natural Convergence: Upon successfully channeling, now grants protection to nearby allies (360 radius).

GLYPHS

  • Glyph of Alignment (CA only): Now a 900 range targetable AoE.
  • Glyph of Equality (CA only): Radius increased to 360.
  • Glyph of the Stars (CA only): Can now be affected by quickness.
  • Glyph of Unity: Cooldown reduced from 30s to 20s.
  • *Glyph of Unity (Non-CA only): Grants protection to self.
  • *Glyph of Unity (CA only): Grants regeneration to affected allies.

TRAITS

  • Celestial Shadow: Cooldown increased to 15s in PvP only.
  • Invigorating Bond (CORE): Additionally, your active pet gains 50% of your healing power.
  • Verdant Etching (DRUID): Additionally, increases the radius of Seed of Life & Lesser Seed of Life from 180 to 240.
  • Lingering Light: Additionally, reduces the cooldown of Celestial Avatar form from 20s to 10s in PvP only.

PETS

  • Regenerate (FERN HOUND): Reduced cast time to 1/2s.
  • Protecting Screen (BLUE MOA): Reduced cast time to 1/2s.
  • Furious Screech (RED MOA): Reduced cast time to 1/2s.
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@Axl.8924 said:

@"aymnad.9023" said:out understanding how everything else is impacted.

What I do not get :
  • No rework on druid or changes on cd / astral force so I have a hard time seeing it played. Also less healing and less damage means you build life force slower. Great job there.Yes no druid rework is embarrasing considering the state of druid in PvP and revenant got two! trait line reworks.But astral force generation happens per healing/damage instance and is always the same no matter how much you healed or damaged.
  • 300s on some passives. This is the 1st of april right ? Why not have something new ? Why not delete them at this point? They were already weak, I already was not using them. If anyone uses them after the patch well I do not know how we can help him/her.

All passive defensive traits got 300 seconds cooldown. They basically deleted all those traits which saw only play in PvP modes anyway without removing them. Pretty bad change.

Druid is gonna be kitten now compared to ele even more noticeably bad What the heck.

It is very hard to predict because changes are so overwhelming and it is only a preview.But based on what we know, staff Solar Beam damage scale is better than SB Crossfire and with higher speed. So if we evaluate the staff damage by the new standards, it is competitive? Same for skills like "Natural Convergence", based on your damage standards, this skill damage is now OK?

Also, Keep in mind that that healing rotations will be harder to sustain so the value of extra druid healing may increase. Also, when value of skills are being lowered the value of of field combo is increasing. Very high chance that blast finish heals will come back big time like it was in vanilla. When our ranger's selfish heals are on 30 sec CD, take another look at "Healing Spring", the value is insane, especially if you can blast/leap like once or twice. Many more examples like that but as mentioned this only a preview that it very hard to predict future meta.

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@"LughLongArm.5460" said:

Also, Keep in mind that that healing rotations will be harder to sustain so the value of extra druid healing may increase. Also, when value of skills are being lowered the value of of field combo is increasing. Very high chance that blast finish heals will come back big time like it was in vanilla. When our ranger's selfish heals are on 30 sec CD, take another look at "Healing Spring", the value is insane, especially if you can blast/leap like once or twice. Many more examples like that but as mentioned this only a preview that it very hard to predict future meta.

You actually summed up my thoughts almost perfectly. To be honest, I do see Druid gaining more momentum as a support. Healing Spring seems like it will actually be a pretty popular heal, even untraited. The blast potential on a support build with Quickdraw will carry a higher impact now for the reasons you mentioned. Also, Druid is coming out with healing modifier power competing with Ventari, who additionally is seeing nerfs to its healing strength. Not sure how it will actually pan out, but my feelings are that comparatively speaking, they are coming out a little stronger post-patch.

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@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@"LughLongArm.5460" said:

Also, Keep in mind that that healing rotations will be harder to sustain so the value of extra druid healing may increase. Also, when value of skills are being lowered the value of of field combo is increasing. Very high chance that blast finish heals will come back big time like it was in vanilla. When our ranger's selfish heals are on 30 sec CD, take another look at "Healing Spring", the value is insane, especially if you can blast/leap like once or twice. Many more examples like that but as mentioned this only a preview that it very hard to predict future meta.

You actually summed up my thoughts almost perfectly. To be honest, I do see Druid gaining more momentum as a support. Healing Spring seems like it will actually be a pretty popular heal, even untraited. The blast potential on a support build with Quickdraw will carry a higher impact now for the reasons you mentioned. Also, Druid is coming out with healing modifier power competing with Ventari, who additionally is seeing nerfs to its healing strength. Not sure how it will actually pan out, but my feelings are that comparatively speaking, they are coming out a little stronger post-patch.

Fingers crossed. I miss my druid.

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@LughLongArm.5460 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Druid is gonna be kitten now compared to ele even more noticeably bad What the heck.It is very hard to predict because changes are so overwhelming and it is only a preview.But based on what we know, staff Solar Beam damage scale is better than SB Crossfire and with higher speed. So if we evaluate the staff damage by the new standards, it is competitive? Same for skills like "Natural Convergence", based on your damage standards, this skill damage is now OK?

Also, Keep in mind that that healing rotations will be harder to sustain so the value of extra druid healing may increase. Also, when value of skills are being lowered the value of of field combo is increasing. Very high chance that blast finish heals will come back big time like it was in vanilla. When our ranger's selfish heals are on 30 sec CD, take another look at "Healing Spring", the value is insane, especially if you can blast/leap like once or twice. Many more examples like that but as mentioned this only a preview that it very hard to predict future meta.

from my PoV Druid is going to be pretty bad, even worse than before. It may see come uses because of the nerfs to soulbeast, but that doesn't mean the class will feel rewarding.
This is not the fault of the last balance patch per se
, this is a product of all the indiscriminate nerfs coming before this balance.

The buffs are to verdant etching (yeeeeyy we get the 2 cleanses back bois!) and to lunar impact (2s daze).The most important nerfs are to Druidic clarity (no stunbreak) and Celestial shadow (2s stealth) .

The coefficients between Staff and Shortbow have been always pretty close. Power damage both weapons have done almost the same damage, there is no change there. The difference is Shortbow brings some conditions.

With all the other healings being in the range of 30s we may see more use of Healing Spring, because every 15s (or 12s if traited) clarion bond can be triggered which is a blast.

Yet I'd like to see how this is implemented as i'm afraid it is going to be half-way and we won't get the unblockable buff when going into beastmode.

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@Lazze.9870 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ranger nerfs aren't nearly as bad as the other classes.

One elite spec is already dead outside of pve and they did nothing to adress that, while the other is a niche - proven by how little it is used in the tournaments.

Implying it should get hit harder is a joke.

i'm not that's your cynicism talking.

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So what would be the ideal healer druid build after these changes? just curious as soon as these changes hit I want to test when it.

Having finishers might help a lot but I'm kind of worried by some of the nerfs on the healing modifiers and other stuff on. it's nice we get nice condi cleanses though, such as the CA 3 and 4 blind and such combination with heals, making it less useful for keeping people alive compared to Firebrand who will be god mode.

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Druid will be the same as it is now. Number changes don’t change the state of driud. Only a mechanics change to CA and an improvement in CA skills for movement based combat will improve druid.

Seriously, everything is the same except the numbers on the screen and log are less.

The goal of the patch was to reevaluate numbers, for lesser numbers sake, to establish a base, not to make QoL gameplay improvements and enhancements. That might come later.

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@"Axl.8924" said:So what would be the ideal healer druid build after these changes? just curious as soon as these changes hit I want to test when it.

Having finishers might help a lot but I'm kind of worried by some of the nerfs on the healing modifiers and other stuff on. it's nice we get nice condi cleanses though, such as the CA 3 and 4 blind and such combination with heals, making it less useful for keeping people alive compared to Firebrand who will be god mode.

This is the build I am currently experimenting with in WvW to see how it does pre-patch: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwEYiNssC2CDjxwKxyV6vpWiHvC-zVJYjRNfhEUBkaIUdG47BJU6t43mF-w

I will be honest that I am rusty at Ranger. I have shelved it for the past year and a half because I lost interest in playing Soulbeast, so the theorycrafting may not be super on point. Basically these are my thoughts:

  • Value of water fields will be increased. This spec has access to 3 of them, and with Quickdraw this makes their access more frequent if fields are what you are after.
  • Value of blast finishers will consequently be increased as well. Just like water fields, this spec has access to 3. Nice thing about Staff 3 w/ Quickdraw is that you can essentially double-cast it with like a 1-ish sec CD for a double blast/burst heal.
  • My guess is that strong healing in general will be more sought after. Glyph of Alignment is a slept-on burst heal and it is only getting a CD adjustment, but no numerical adjustment. It will be a hard hitter. This may just be stubbornness speaking because I have always really liked the skill. I have also taken Invigorating Bond for similar reasons: with healing in general being reduced, the trait will have a little more value since it is not being tuned down. Still a rather lackluster trait, but I'm after the traited NM for the traited Warhorn for better regen uptime.
  • Glyph of Rejuvenation may be a good choice, but my thought process is that with Druidic Clarity decreasing in value, Cultivated Synergy becomes a bit better of an option. This effectively makes Healing Spring a pretty darn strong support skill with all the other utility it brings as well. I liked taking traited WHaO previously for the big range AoE regen/swiftness, but with the big CD increase, I just don't see it being worth it anymore.
  • Signet of Renewal is nice for the CA generation, an additional stunbreak, and a burst group condi clear. May be stupid with how much damage gets thrown out there, but my hope is that it won't be too much to render the pet useless like it currently is. I guess we will see. I tend to play in puggy fights and don't really follow tags too often, so I don't see the pet issue being quite as glaring as it may be in those situations.
  • With Stand your Ground getting nerfed, group stab access will be less. Having a group stunbreak will increase in value. Glyph of Equality is there for that.
  • The spec has pretty solidly paced condi cleanse access: Seed of Life, Verdant Etching, Glyph of Alignment, Glyph of Equality, Healing Spring, light fields/blast finishers, and the good 'ol brown bear. Burst condi cleanse is limited to just SoR, but in general it can provide a steady flow of cleanses.
  • Glyph of Stars being at a 48s CD will be pretty hype. With rez traits getting gutted (aside from actual skills like proper rez signets), the rez value of GoS will be quite valuable. Additionally, the non-CA version is quite nice for massive condi area denial, especially with condis probably becoming significantly stronger in the patch.
  • Not really sure about Monk Runes since its boon access is rather bursty and infrequent. Still playing with this idea. Minstrel feels like a bit of a waste since it doesn't get huge value from concentration, but I have been playing with full Cleric's + Instinctive Reaction and I feel like paper. Will be different in the patch, so maybe if Minstrel's doesn't feel as necessary going Cleric's will be good to maximize healing potential.

This build is of course assuming that I have the ability to sacrifice my own self-survivability through support from others. If I was running in smaller scale, I'd change the build a lot to become more selfish. I play WvW a ton, but play pretty casually and as I please, so my perspective is not from a high-end GvG or zerg v zerg perspective. Still probably far off from ever having a spot there. It's more about how I can play the spec I want to play for enjoyment and contribute the most to a group despite it being an off-meta pick.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ranger nerfs aren't nearly as bad as the other classes.

Thats because ranger has always had lower coeficients than all the other classes. Coeficients, boon duration, conditions duration has always been 20%-30% lower than any other class in game. Because of the no-working pet.

don't even start with me lol. I know how to break ranger, its like any other class.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ranger nerfs aren't nearly as bad as the other classes.

Thats because ranger has always had lower coeficients than all the other classes. Coeficients, boon duration, conditions duration has always been 20%-30% lower than any other class in game. Because of the no-working pet.

don't even start with me lol. I know how to break ranger, its like any other class.What do you mean with that? Ranger had its pepega moments like bunker druid era or the pewpew sniper soulbeast, but that never has got anything to do with the coeficients.I don't recall ranger to get even be close to 2.0 coeficient in any skill, while you can easily find coeficients of 3.x and 4.x in burst skills from other classes. We can have a conversation about the pets, damage multipliers, and whatnot still the coeficients have ever been much lower because of the no-working pet mechanic (at least is what an anet dev said long time ago).

Other than that:

  • It does not have any meaninful representation in sPvP at skilled level. In gold you may see some roleplayers.
  • In WvW is hated and loathed as is only used for its pewpew potential from the top of the tower. It is the most bullied class with direct scorning comments in wvw right after afkers in spawn with queue in the map.
  • In PvE is used as spirit slave, because might can be provided by other classes.
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Since this is their plan we should atleast get pet autoattack in beastmode too and rework of 80% pets... Ranger having 2 autoattacks would feel nice, just imagine jacaranda on condi build so you stack 5+different condis and hit more for each condition because thats what jacaranda aa is doing right now...Alot more depth would be added and this won t be such cheese class to play and would bring some strong condi builds combined with pet aa which could be used as cover condi and other things like i mentioned with jacaranda. Pet skills have long cd and having just 1 pet would make entering beastmode only rewarded with boons and cleanse if traited thats why i think giving ranger second autoattack along with other beast skills would make much more sense and feel the gap (even replace existing skill 1 with pet auttoattack something like mirage ambush but not that strong but still being able to get another aa from beastmode since you can leave it in 1 sec anyway would make much more sense. Also i think this is just good setup for future changes they want to do so its risky start but i admire it because i think it will slow down game and make it more meanigfull than just spam but still cc is not adressed and there is no interupts only crazy amount of hard cc and they removed some stun breaks. Changing it opposite way of having 1/4 daze (pure interupt) as 80% of universall cc across all professions and make hard cc such as taunt as ranger unique cc (making only 20% of all cc available for ranger so its not spamable) would make game shine much more and build diversity even stronger since you won t run 2-3 stunbreaks as must because now you don t waste stunbreak on 1/4 daze which is meant just to interupt you and keep stunbreak vs only 1 hard cc every proffesion would be able to trigger since its all changed for daze to fit line beetween interupts (1/4 daze active gameplay) and hard cc (all we have to day making game very passive). Still when outnumbered you will have 1 stunbreak for hard cc and being attack by 2 players would mean you need to be careffull about not eating both of hard cc from both players attempting to kill you.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

Sharpened Edges: Reduced bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 1 second

That MUST be a typing error surely. 1 sec of the weakest condi? that relies on a crit hit. o_0It doesn't really matter, nobody uses condi ranger in compt.

Whilst very true.. I thought the whole purpose of this complete combat rework was to1) stop the insta pop builds2) slow combat down overall and make it more tacticool3) AND make condi and power - and potentially hybrid builds - all more equally viable.

??

Not sure how you make condi more viable for ranger by changing it in this manner...

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@Sandzibar.5134 said:

Sharpened Edges: Reduced bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 1 second

That MUST be a typing error surely. 1 sec of the weakest condi? that relies on a crit hit. o_0It doesn't really matter, nobody uses condi ranger in compt.

Whilst very true.. I thought the whole purpose of this complete combat rework was to1) stop the insta pop builds2) slow combat down overall and make it more tacticool3) AND make condi and power - and potentially hybrid builds - all more equally viable.

??

Not sure how you make condi more viable for ranger by changing it in this manner...

In this manner it won't it won't even mean a big change in the competitive builds.

Yet I pointed out some easy solutions in the wvw thread with the hopes of Coen or anybody from the balance team to see it and maybe get some of those changes included. Some like return back the 1200 range to the shortbow would benefit PvP and should be extremely easy to implement, others like the splinter effect could be more tricky (although in worst case scenario would be enough to apply the fire sigil alike effect with the relevant conditions) it could be very beneficial for WvW scenarios.

I don't mean it would make condi builds automatically viable but this changes would be a big step in that direction and it would open the build variety a little bit more,

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Come back once I hear they posted the preview of the big balance pass

They nerfed druid even harder and are making our limited AoE's even worse (press F for path of scars)

Don't know what I expected but being made that much crappier in group combat wasn't one of them

Guess I don't have to feel bad about the heat death of WvW anymore since I'll no longer have any reason to log in

Autoattack Chain: Reduced power coefficients from 0.4/0.42/0.44/0.88 to 0.32/0.336/0.352/0.704Crippling Talon: Reduced power coefficient from 0.75 to 0.5

Did ranger daggers, of all the weapons in the game, really need a nerf? REALLY? Does anyone even use these outside of goofy fun builds?

I get that this was some big sweep but some of these feel like they were just reaching for things to nerf, not actually thinking about any real baseline to aim for

This is just some broad numbers crunch and not any kind of "balance" when they reduce barrage's damage but only increased CoR's cooldown. I'm still gonna die from 2 hammer rev's hitting me at the same time while barrage is back to it's "oh nvm that's not an arrow cart on us" status.

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Beastly Warden: This trait now has a 1 second delay before your pet taunts nearby enemies. Does anyone here noticed we may be able to use cheatah pet f2 which is 1200 range shadowstep to aoe taunt from range...also iboga pet will be able to pull and than taunt which could be nice to use with torch which gained some buff on skill 4. Too bad druid still don thave ability to rezz pets while entering CA that would make those pets viable on druid.

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@CroTiger.7819 said:Beastly Warden: This trait now has a 1 second delay before your pet taunts nearby enemies. Does anyone here noticed we may be able to use cheatah pet f2 which is 1200 range shadowstep to aoe taunt from range...also iboga pet will be able to pull and than taunt which could be nice to use with torch which gained some buff on skill 4. Too bad druid still don thave ability to rezz pets while entering CA that would make those pets viable on druid.

I am still disappointed that the cheetah does walk down the stairs, turns to the enemies then uses it's skill and only with los (and pet dies too fast). But you are right. A nice long range combo.Iboga seems like a cool idea. I am not sure if the target will reach the pet before it triggers.I was also thinking about using tiger F2 after a 'protect me' to chain cc and damage.

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@CroTiger.7819 said:Beastly Warden: This trait now has a 1 second delay before your pet taunts nearby enemies. Does anyone here noticed we may be able to use cheatah pet f2 which is 1200 range shadowstep to aoe taunt from range...also iboga pet will be able to pull and than taunt which could be nice to use with torch which gained some buff on skill 4. Too bad druid still don thave ability to rezz pets while entering CA that would make those pets viable on druid.

yes, I also thought about this combo. On the Soul-beast department, it could also work nicely with the versatile type F3. pull followed by immob followed by taunt. Could be nice combo with Axe 5. Also remember that you can proc beastly Warden back to back(with no CD), if you use pet F2 first and SB F3 after. And guess what, Cheetah is versatile type.

Regarding Condi druid, the more I think about it the more I think it is feasible. Got back on my druid after a very very long time to practice. Lowering overall damage could help pets to survive.

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@aymnad.9023 said:

I am still disappointed that the cheetah does walk down the stairs, turns to the enemies then uses it's skill and only with los (and pet dies too fast). But you are right. A nice long range combo.Iboga seems like a cool idea. I am not sure if the target will reach the pet before it triggers.I was also thinking about using tiger F2 after a 'protect me' to chain cc and damage.

Yes tiger can be good too. Also im not sure if pull from max range will be fast enough to proc taunt on time around iboga. Also cheetah is shadowstep and it works like thief steal you probly used it on no port or it was glitch. I used it on druid with smokescale to have 2 shadowstep pets while i snare targets and it was working pretty much without los and things you said. What you said it dies fast yes that was the problem and still will be but maybe dmg reduction overall help it. Still druid should get pet revive with CA druidic clarity traited or even as adept trait.

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