Concerned about Surge of the Mists Change

[ArthurDent.9538]

I am no fan of these proposed patch notes in general and believe that stubbornly following this dogmatic mantra that all skills that have a stun, knockdown, knockback, etc. should do next to zero damage with no consideration for any other contexts is complete kitten and lazy design. I would like to draw attention to the skill Surge of the Mists in particular as i feel these changes completely destroy the skill's design and will leave an iconic skill that used to feel great and rewarding when you land it just right, feeling completely underwhelming in every sense when used offensively.

Surge of the mists is a series of very short knock-backs that individually disable the enemy for a very short period of time and individually do very low damage however they combo with themselves and depending on how well you land the skill you get greater effects. The full skill contains nine hits and the number of hits which land depends your position at the start of the cast and how perfectly lined up you are relative to the target; if you start too far away and the first few hits don't connect and if your angle isn't directly into the target they drift off to the side and you miss the later hits. Any integer number between 0 and nine hits is possible depending how well you line up the skill.

Currently the reward for landing a good/perfect surge of the mists is that you do more damage since 9 hits give a decent amount of damage compared to the negligible damage that only 1 or 2 hits do. When the damage per hit goes to basically zero there becomes no longer any incentive to try to land the "perfect surge of the mists" because you get the same effect regardless: a short duration knock down that you can't even land follow up skills with afterwards without quickness because the target stands up naturally so quickly they can dodge your follow up damage, the only benefit to landing more hits would be when you have allies that can continue to attack your target while you are animation locked however it isn't even good at that as the enemy will be getting dashed along faster than melee builds can keep up with. In fact landing the perfect surge of the mists will in any sort of 1vX will be more of a liability as you just potentially take more damage from retaliation with no benefit. Adding a wind up at the start of the cast so the skill can't even be reliably used as an interrupt is just extra salt in the wound in turning a previously awesome skill that required good precision to get maximum value from into something that just doesn't matter how well or poorly you execute with it.

Surge of the mists will still be worth using (at least if staff is still worth using in general) since it has an evade and some mobility, but that is all it will be good for. Even if you continue to insist on this whole "hard cc should do no damage" please reconsider changes so that there is still incentive to try get all 9 hits in from surge of the mists such as making the last hit knock down the enemy target for a duration proportional to the number of impacts that have landed. With the current proposal I don't even care what this means for overall balance, this is just dumbing the game down and killing fun at this point because of blanket rules with no consideration for context.

Edit: Also love how SOTM got it's own damage tier, .01 per impact was too high needed to go to .001 XD

ALL IS VAIN

[draxynnic.3719]

I would note that strictly speaking, a perfect SOTM still means that you push the enemy out of position... but yeah, I think you do have a point here. Even following their paradigm, a still-low coefficient of 0.002 or 0.003 would mean that while the damage from 'clipping' someone is still fairly low, the perfect setup at least does more damage than a regular CC would.

I suspect that there is a degree to which ArenaNet is trying to make the perfect SOTM a less important thing and making it more practical to use as a gap closer and for other utility purposes... but if so, a price reduction is probably warranted. Post-patch, it's going to be a skill that's going to be on roughly equal ground with Drop the Hammer and Temporal Rift, but which is substantially more expensive in terms of energy and recharge.

[Yasai.3549]

It's all meh.

I can only hope that the base damage of SotM can at least carry some weight damage wise, and idk, at least chunk off 3k~4k HP.

They clearly wanna make it so that all CC skills are used purely for CC and not have huge damage numbers on it so that players can 1 2 punch people with a heavy hitting CC and another heavy blow.

At least SotM is still good for interrupting stomps/rez.When using Brutality, SotM combined with a PT is extremely powerful at totally shutting down players because it goes through block and rips stability.

They mentioned also giving it a 500ms boost during the windup of the skill which is also covered by the Evade, so the tell of the skill is gonna be more obvious too, but if using as a mobility/disengage it could be kinda better than before (?) idk.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@"Yasai.3549" said:It's all meh.

I can only hope that the base damage of SotM can at least carry some weight damage wise, and idk, at least chunk off 3k~4k HP.

There is no such thing as base damage in this game.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

Damage done = (Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

It is all multipliers, once the damage coefficient goes to near zero we should know what happens when multiplying by zero, that hopeful 3k~4k will actually be around .03k~.04k. Double digit damage for all nine hits combined regardless of running full zerk with 25 might, 25 vuln, etc.

[phokus.8934]

(1048 2086 .009) / 1800 = 10.9 damage with a full hit. I didn't even bother adding in the multiplicative damage modifiers but SotM is going to be strictly utility.

[KrHome.1920]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Edit: Also love how SOTM got it's own damage tier, .01 per impact was too high needed to go to .001 XDBecause it has multiple strikes that add up.

And most people don't seem to understand why all hard cc skills get these 0.1 or 0.01 multipliers.

These kind of skills are not allowed to deal damage anymore. That tiny bit of a remaining multiplier has just one single purpose: to reveal you when you plan to abuse it out of stealth engages.

Thieves once could use sb4 and traps endlessly out of stealth without getting revealed and apply conditions without any counterplay because the skills did not deal any direct damage. Anet learned their lession.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I am gonna miss revcopter.

[Xca.9721]

I am more concerned about the 500 ms warmup; are we able to move during this period or will the skill get interrupted if we do so? Would be really bad if we couldn´t move, especially when we need to kite away

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Surge of the mists losing damage is fine.

Losing its potential for interrupting key skills with a unnecessary windup is not. Windups should be on CCs that actually last a long time, which SoTM does not.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Xca.9721 said:I am more concerned about the 500 ms warmup; are we able to move during this period or will the skill get interrupted if we do so? Would be really bad if we couldn´t move, especially when we need to kite away

That's a valid point. If it's still possible to move, it can still serve as a mobility skill, and while the enemy gets more warning, we also get that time to try to make sure it's lined up before it triggers. If movement isn't possible, then people will probably be able to avoid it simply by moving, and its usage as a mobility skill will at least be severely impacted.

[Buran.3796]

The 0.5 seconds extra evade time to the skill will fit wonderfully in the new bunker meta. Turtling behind Crystal Hybernation while pulsing Embrace the Darkness has been one of my favourite things to do at n vs n skirmishes in PvP in season 20. Yes, for +1 builds the changes in SotM probably will hurt the sustain; for tank builds probably will be an unintended buff. Expect a nerf because "purity of purpose".

[Yasai.3549]

Anet probably knows of Rev's PT>SotM Combo and are making it so that it's less instantaenous.

If yu wanna use SotM for key interrupts, it should still land.

Usually PT>SotM is saved for surprising people with a huge knockdown burst, but since damage is going down the drain, people are gonna use SotM more as an interrupt only or Evade, so the 0.5 extra Evasion is welcome.

[Safandula.8723]

I think op dont like the fact, he wont be Able to 1 shot PPL while doing cc with a single skill. Sotm is broken atm- shiton of dmg, evade, knockback. Not gonna mention its also good for 'stripping' stab as it hit multiple Times in almost no Time.Yes i play rev and i think this change is good, Sotm, will still be strong

[Shao.7236]

Annulment is out of the game and the skill will have definition like the rest of all Revenant skills so really there's nothing wrong here. Just another case of something that shouldn't have been the way it was from the start.

[Xca.9721]

@Safandula.8723 said:I think op dont like the fact, he wont be Able to 1 shot PPL while doing cc with a single skill. Sotm is broken atm- shiton of dmg, evade, knockback. Not gonna mention its also good for 'stripping' stab as it hit multiple Times in almost no Time.Yes i play rev and i think this change is good, Sotm, will still be strong

are you living in 2016? the times where you could 1shot ppl with sotm are long gone

[Safandula.8723]

@Xca.9721 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:I think op dont like the fact, he wont be Able to 1 shot PPL while doing cc with a single skill. Sotm is broken atm- shiton of dmg, evade, knockback. Not gonna mention its also good for 'stripping' stab as it hit multiple Times in almost no Time.Yes i play rev and i think this change is good, Sotm, will still be strong

are you living in 2016? the times where you could 1shot ppl with sotm are long gone

talking about wvw. its quite easy there

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Shao.7236 said:Annulment is out of the game and the skill will have definition like the rest of all Revenant skills so really there's nothing wrong here. Just another case of something that shouldn't have been the way it was from the start.

annulment is out of the game? what?

[Shao.7236]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Annulment is out of the game and the skill will have definition like the rest of all Revenant skills so really there's nothing wrong here. Just another case of something that shouldn't have been the way it was from the start.

annulment is out of the game? what?

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Build Items

• Reduced stats on 4-stat amulets from 1050/1050/560/560 to 1000/1000/500/500
• Sigil of Annulment has been removed from the PvP Build panel
• Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP Build panel
• The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel
  • Deadshot Amulet
  • Viper Amulet
  • Wanderer Amulet
  • Diviner Amulet
  • Harrier Amulet
  • Seeker Amulet

Some PvP runes have been adjusted.

In the PvP notes.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Shao.7236 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Annulment is out of the game and the skill will have definition like the rest of all Revenant skills so really there's nothing wrong here. Just another case of something that shouldn't have been the way it was from the start.

annulment is out of the game? what?

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Build Items

• Reduced stats on 4-stat amulets from 1050/1050/560/560 to 1000/1000/500/500
• Sigil of Annulment has been removed from the PvP Build panel
• Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP Build panel
• The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel
  • Deadshot Amulet
  • Viper Amulet
  • Wanderer Amulet
  • Diviner Amulet
  • Harrier Amulet
  • Seeker Amulet

Some PvP runes have been adjusted.

In the PvP notes.

Oh ok, still in for wvw lol

Thank you =D

[draxynnic.3719]

Strictly speaking, Annulment is still in now, but will be removed from sPvP when the balance patch lands.

[Xca.9721]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Xca.9721 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:I think op dont like the fact, he wont be Able to 1 shot PPL while doing cc with a single skill. Sotm is broken atm- shiton of dmg, evade, knockback. Not gonna mention its also good for 'stripping' stab as it hit multiple Times in almost no Time.Yes i play rev and i think this change is good, Sotm, will still be strong

are you living in 2016? the times where you could 1shot ppl with sotm are long gone

talking about wvw. its quite easy there

Oh right. I thought you meant PvP. Ye they haven´t changed anything in WvW since forever, and Sotm dmg is way out of the line there ofc

[ArthurDent.9538]

Any one want to defend this moronic change after today?

[Buran.3796]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Any one want to defend this moronic change after today?

I just... don't care. SotM damage was nerfed before in the distant past, and the last year got butchered in so many ways (the blinds, the interrupt in the #2, etc.). At the same time Shiro's IO lost quickness in 2018 and then superspeed in 2019 (and the speed enhancement was placed in a Herald trait cutting ties between Shiro and sustained speed in favor of Herald and Glint which already has access to permaswiftness). The classical power Herald build with Shiro/Glint no longer felt the same in 2019 so the last PvP season I ditched it entirely and played condi bunker builds instead. I would say that they nerfed the staff so hard that now the shield is just better, because lets you to do to do damage (with mace) while providing team support and personal defense and sustain. I envisioned a bunker meta sfter the patch and so far in the first 7-8 matches I did play that seems to be the trend.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Any one want to defend this moronic change after today?

Literally this. It’s not fluid and feels like ass. Very clear no one on the balance team play tests this stuff extensively or plays Rev consistently and at a high level.