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new story chapter meta achievement only for raiders?


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@"Vayne.8563" said:I strongly disagree with this. Strike missions are so far out of people's comfort zones and no other meta has asked us to group with 9 other people to finish it. If that's your choice of playstyle that's fine, but open world content can encourage people to try out stuff they normally wouldn't play but it shouldn't penalize them for not wanting to.There's nothing that says the achievements for any given release are "Open World" only. The achievements have always represented a mastery of all ends of the content provided in a single release. They have often included a wide variety of activities that don't always suit everyone's tastes and abilities.One person may not have the skill or desire to take part in a Strike Mission. Another person may not possess the patience or desire to complete "Storyteller of Orr". This has always been the case.Some players are locked out of meta achievements by Jumping Puzzles. But don't tell me you don't need a JP to complete S3.2.Sure, strike missions are out of many people's comfort zones. Jumping Puzzles are out of many people's comfort zones. Repeating Story missions for achievements but zero rewards is also out of many player's comfort zones.

Your problem is only that this time it went out of your comfort zone.

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?The game hasn't been changed. Achievements haven't changed. You've just drawn a selected line in the sand based on your personal preference of content.I see no reason why the developers should suddenly change course to suit this kind of entitlement.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?You shouldn't. Migraine being in the meta was a really bad design, and a lot of players did tell Anet exactly that. And it seemed Anet listened, for a while at least... but it seems they've now forgotten the lesson they learned then.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?You shouldn't. Migraine being in the meta was a really bad design, and a lot of players did tell Anet exactly that. And it seemed Anet listened, for a while at least... but it seems they've now forgotten the lesson they learned then.

And others felt that it was good design or had no opinion either way. You say “Anet learned their lesson” as if your opinion was the correct one.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?You shouldn't. Migraine being in the meta was a really bad design, and a lot of players did tell Anet exactly that. And it seemed Anet listened, for a while at least... but it seems they've now forgotten the lesson they learned then.

There's a big difference between "bad design" and "stuff I don't like:".Calling one the other and backing it up with rhetoric about learning lessons does not make it so.

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@"Rasimir.6239" said:Not everyone is comfortable with learning/practicing in front of strangers, especially not the more insensitive kind of stranger who might comment on your skill (or rather lack of) in a way that puts you under even more stress than you already are. It's a question of personality more than anything else that keeps a lot of people from joining strikes, and this game has attracted many such people especially because they are able to largely skip instanced group content and still play pretty much the "whole" game.

This is pretty much where I am at. I recently came back to GW2 to see the new Icebrood Saga stuff and have generally had a lot of fun doing all the achievements from the prologue and chapter 1. The one exception to that was taking on the boneskinner and dealing with folks getting really upset because of the higher skill needed (and taking it out on others). Seeing as the new map meta is going to require me to go back to that again was kind of disheartening, and I'm now kind of struggling to see a point to even continuing as I don't really want to touch that content again. Its totally a preference thing in my case, and I don't want to make it sound like I think strikes shouldn't be in the game. I'm just kind of hoping they will keep them separate.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?You shouldn't. Migraine being in the meta was a really bad design, and a lot of players did tell Anet exactly that. And it seemed Anet listened, for a while at least... but it seems they've now forgotten the lesson they learned then.

There's a big difference between "bad design" and "stuff I don't like:".Calling one the other and backing it up with rhetoric about learning lessons does not make it so.

Do you have any arguments yourself, why you think it is not bad design?

There are players that have a big emotional problem to go in the same instance with strangers. It has to do with feelings of "not good enough", or to be afraid to be rejected or bullied by elitists/try-hards etc. etc. (just to be clear: I experienced that 99% of my fellow raiders are very friendly, nice and helpful).

This is not some kind of "comfort zone" they should be forced to leave, but it is some kind of barrier, they can not cross.

Those players have (more or less) accepted, that some things in the game are out of their reach without instanced 10-man-content, because they are only "for raiders" (i.e. legandary raid armor). But a story-chapter is intended to be able to do for solo-players and so should the meta-achievement of that map/story-chapter be.

Probably that is the reason, why Drakkar is not part of the meta-achievement and has its own achievements.

It would be OK if strike missions would be a part of the meta-achievement, if there would also be enough other achievements a player could choose from to complete the meta-achievement without strike-missions. This freedom of choice worked well in the past and was well received (by lots of players).

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:You guys know that you dont HAVE TO get all the achievements right?

I'm sure they noticed but things won't get better for lots of players if a majority of achievements is "repeat skritty events 20-25 times" which is stale and boring af paired with a strike mission that definitely isn't content for the casual crowd as well this time.It's not a matter of "This one stupid thing!", it's the combination of them resulting in many thoughts about how things were handled - mostly without QA - and actually thinking about the entertainment of the core player base.

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If I've counted correctly you need around 6 strike mission achievements to get the Shadow in the Ice Meta Achievement. I am very discouraged at the moment. I play this game for 5+ years and getting all the LW story meta achievements was one of the long term goals I had. Looks like I can abandon this project. I am in a VERY small family guild, I very rarely play fractals, I have a fulltime job and other hobbies. It may be true that I may be simply not good enough as a player. Or simply don't have the time available that is apparently needed to go become good enough to go for achievemnts in GW2 nowadays. I am not interested in group instanced content like fractals or strike missions. But its perfectly fine if others are and they should get nice rewards for that. That I'll never get them is perfectly fine. But the story meta achievement should be doable by everyone. Sorry for the rant. I needed to get that off my chest.

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I agree with everything others have said about requiring strike missions to be mandatory for the meta achievement, and that an episode meta achievement should be accessible to everyone and include a variety of achievements greater than the required number. I just wanted to add that I find it very odd that not one single achievement involving Drakkar counts toward the meta, yet 13 strike mission achievements do. The disparity is puzzling to me.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I strongly disagree with this. Strike missions are so far out of people's comfort zones and no other meta has asked us to group with 9 other people to finish it. If that's your choice of playstyle that's fine, but open world content can encourage people to try out stuff they normally wouldn't play but it shouldn't penalize them for not wanting to.There's nothing that says the achievements for any given release are "Open World" only. The achievements have always represented a mastery of all ends of the content provided in a single release. They have often included a wide variety of activities that don't always suit everyone's tastes and abilities.One person may not have the skill or desire to take part in a Strike Mission. Another person may not possess the patience or desire to complete "Storyteller of Orr". This has always been the case.Some players are locked out of meta achievements by Jumping Puzzles. But don't tell me you don't need a JP to complete S3.2.Sure, strike missions are out of many people's comfort zones. Jumping Puzzles are out of many people's comfort zones. Repeating Story missions for achievements but zero rewards is also out of many player's comfort zones.

Your problem is only that this time it went out of
your
comfort zone.

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?The game hasn't been changed. Achievements haven't changed. You've just drawn a selected line in the sand based on your personal preference of content.I see no reason why the developers should suddenly change course to suit this kind of entitlement.

Migraine isn't something that stops someone from getting a meta achievement. I didn't say don't have achievements. I said don't have meta achievements locked behind ten man content, unless it's say a raid meta if such a thing were to exist.

To put it another way, uppiing the ante, changing the game in this way, isn't helpful to the game in any way shape or form. If the content is there and has an achievment, that's fine. Plenty of things have achievements. Give strike missions their own meta, I'd have no problem. But now you have an LS meta that requires 10 man instanced content and that's never been done before.

It's not adding anything at all for hard core players, but it is inconveniencing people who don't enjoy that kind of content and never had to do it before. You've fundamentally changed what is their game on them.

To put it another way, the SFWA (science fiction writers of america) says in their writing course that you should as a writer provide the tone, the character and the genre as fast as possible. WHen you do that you create an unwritten contract with the reader and changing that does nothing but break that contract. In other words, you need a GOOD reason to change something and it has to be demonstrated. Saying well it's content and therefore it's fair game ignores the existing content with the "reader" or in this case the player.

HoT should have taught Anet you can't do that, because HoT cost this game dearly. It was too steep a change and the casual game audience didn't like it. The open world meta in zones were always the purview of the casual player. You could get it if you kept grinding away. But once you change it to make it more "raid-like" you're in a situation where you're disenfranchsing the single largest group of players in the game, in my opinion anyway, and I'm pretty sure metrics will back that up.

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@aikatara.3462 said:If I've counted correctly you need around 6 strike mission achievements to get the Shadow in the Ice Meta Achievement. I am very discouraged at the moment. I play this game for 5+ years and getting all the LW story meta achievements was one of the long term goals I had. Looks like I can abandon this project. I am in a VERY small family guild, I very rarely play fractals, I have a fulltime job and other hobbies. It may be true that I may be simply not good enough as a player. Or simply don't have the time available that is apparently needed to go become good enough to go for achievemnts in GW2 nowadays. I am not interested in group instanced content like fractals or strike missions. But its perfectly fine if others are and they should get nice rewards for that. That I'll never get them is perfectly fine. But the story meta achievement should be doable by everyone. Sorry for the rant. I needed to get that off my chest.

Raiders have jobs, families, personal lives, and so on but manage to get where they are with the time that they have. All of that doesn’t matter though because these are strikes. They don’t require nearly that much effort as strikes despite what those jaded players, who probably never have done them, like to say.

Several of those strike achievements added can be done solo or without even needing to actually beat the boss.

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@"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:Honestly, meta achievements need to be more forgiving in general, so you can avoid the dumber ones (timed achievements and "don't get hit by Boss Attack X" achievements, I'm looking at you!) and still do them.

It should not be easier to get living story rewards by doing reward tracks in PVP/WvW than the actual living story content, but it really really is.

Have you even tried to PvP???? If you lose back to back it is literally faster to do the content than to try and PvP through EIGHT HOURS of people that throw, rage, and cry about nothing. Don't assume.

~ Signed,Your local PvPer/PVEr

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:You guys know that you dont HAVE TO get all the achievements right?Sure, people can just decide to not do the metaachieve. Which will probably result in them not caring about many other achieves that are part of the meta either. And once they have that one meta uncompleted, they will probably care less about all the future ones as well (because once you gave up on something once, it becomes easier and easier to do that again).

I'm sure that people playing the game less is exactly what should happen.[/sarcasm]

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The strike is not this hard imo. Done it with pug groups till now and accepted everyone, even a trailblazers bearbow last time. Took me between 2 to 6 try's to the kill on each run. Play the mechaniks clean (ppl running around with chains are the biggest bump imo) and try to dodge the obivious stuff, aka red circles and you will be fine. I will continuing to do this about one times a week just to show that everyone if he want to put a little effort in can get the kill and also do some of the achievements in the same time.Also if you never done content like this don't be shy to ask about it or to join a group. In the vast majority of the groups it's okay to be the newb. We all come from the start and if you just say it's your first time doing the strike in most cases it's oaky and you will get a short explanation what to do or don't!

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@"Yasi.9065" said:

/edit: Also, please, stop trying to split the community. Strikes are for everyone. Raids are for everyone. Story is for everyone. If YOU refuse to do certain content doesnt mean that its exclusive to "labelX players". It is YOUR decision to ignore parts of the game.

Allow me to disagree. While the story is indeed for everyone, the raids are not. Do you remember the statements that the raids are designed to be completed only by the most .... players? And that the devs know that this category is not very large?

Yes, I agree with you, the raids/strikes/story can be tried by everyone. But this is not the Olympic Games - only to participate is not all when you have achievements tied to beating the encounter. Theoretically speaking, everyone can be an Olympic Champion. Practically .... you can count them.

Unfortunately, the strikes are more and more difficult - this is less and less a stepping point into raids, but more like a raid. And now, included into the story achievement. Mandatory.

So, please stop with your wrong statements. Not us, the players (or the person you answered) split the community. The split has been performed in the moment the raids were released - with that "famous" statement that raids are designed to be completed only by the best/skillful/dedicated/patient/etc players. ONLY. The rest were ignored.

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"Yasi.9065" said:

/edit: Also, please, stop trying to split the community. Strikes are for everyone.
Raids are for everyone
. Story is for everyone. If YOU refuse to do certain content doesnt mean that its exclusive to "labelX players". It is YOUR decision to ignore parts of the game.

Allow me to disagree. While the story is indeed for everyone, the raids are not. Do you remember the statements that the raids are designed to be completed
only by the most ....
players? And that the devs know that this category is not very large?

The population of that group is fluid, not fixed. All players can freely move to that group, or out of it, as they wish. Strikes were developed to help those move into it more easily.

Yes, I agree with you, the raids/strikes/story can be tried by everyone. But this is not the Olympic Games - only to participate is not all when you have achievements tied to beating the encounter. Theoretically speaking, everyone can be an Olympic Champion. Practically .... you can count them.

There are achievement tied to beating the encounter and there are some which don’t require it.

Unfortunately, the strikes are more and more difficult - this is less and less a stepping point into raids, but more like a raid. And now, included into the story achievement. Mandatory.

They’ve progressively been getting more difficult which is the point. It wouldn’t be much of a stepping stone if they got easier or remained the same. You’d follow the progression that they got released starting with Grothmar.

So, please stop with your wrong statements. Not us, the players (or the person you answered) split the community. The split has been performed in the moment the raids were released - with that "famous" statement that raids are designed to be completed only by the best/skillful/dedicated/patient/etc players. ONLY. The rest were ignored.

The “split” you referred to existed well before raids.

I also want to point out that there are numerous non-raiders who do strikes and even succeed. The only limiting factor here is yourselves.

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@Zok.4956 said:

Let the 10 man instanced content have it's own rewards. Don't change the game at this point to require us to do ten man content and yes, I have some of those achievements from the strike. This isn't about my personal preferences. This is about fundamentally changing the game on people who liked it the way it was.

Migraine is a similar achievement. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line of acceptable content for meta achievements just because one takes 5 people and one takes 10?You shouldn't. Migraine being in the meta was a really bad design, and a lot of players did tell Anet exactly that. And it seemed Anet listened, for a while at least... but it seems they've now forgotten the lesson they learned then.

There's a big difference between "bad design" and "stuff I don't like:".Calling one the other and backing it up with rhetoric about learning lessons does not make it so.

Do you have any arguments yourself, why you think it is not bad design?

There are players that have a big emotional problem to go in the same instance with strangers. It has to do with feelings of "not good enough", or to be afraid to be rejected or bullied by elitists/try-hards etc. etc. (just to be clear: I experienced that 99% of my fellow raiders are very friendly, nice and helpful).

This is not some kind of "comfort zone" they should be forced to leave, but it is some kind of barrier, they can not cross.

Those players have (more or less) accepted, that some things in the game are out of their reach without instanced 10-man-content, because they are only "for raiders" (i.e. legandary raid armor). But a story-chapter is intended to be able to do for solo-players and so should the meta-achievement of that map/story-chapter be.

Probably that is the reason, why Drakkar is not part of the meta-achievement and has its own achievements.

It would be OK if strike missions would be a part of the meta-achievement, if there would also be enough other achievements a player could choose from to complete the meta-achievement without strike-missions. This freedom of choice worked well in the past and was well received (by lots of players).

For something to be objectively labelled as bad design it would have to:

  1. Not accomplish its intended goal.
  2. Create a negative quantifiable side effect.(or both)In the case of putting Strike Mission achievements in the meta, we can infer the intent: To get people to Participate in the content.This would mean that to be "Bad Design" it would have to measurably not increase participation in Strike Missions. The quantifiable side effect would simply be a much lower number of people than expected finishing the meta achievement (though this number could obviously be impacted by any of the other acheivements).

You don't have these numbers. I don't have these numbers and Astralpouring does not have these numbers. It's doubtful that after less than a week Arenanet even has these numbers.After numerous years you don't even have these numbers to objectively say that about the Migraine achievement, let alone 6 days after a Strike Mission's release.Bad game design is absolutely quantifiable in an MMO. This thread has offered nothing but hyperbole, hearsay and emotional reaction. All the people with social barriers would indeed be accounted for in the numbers.This is very much a "stuff I don't like" issue.

With that said, I appreciate the passion you bring to the table and your relatively even demeanor about this issue.But this thread is very much a breeding ground for some of the worst toxicity this forum has to offer and I am out.

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I played WoW for ten years. I came to GW2 to get away from raiding and the toxic people it breeds. I have no desire to raid ever again in any game; world bosses and the WvW zerg are close enough. Trying to force me to do strikes for a map achieve is just another reason for me to check out New World and Torchlight III later this year, and I'm probably not the only person who feels that way.

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:You guys know that you dont HAVE TO get all the achievements right?

I have a very fine tuned Effort/ Reward judgement system and PUGging for an emote fails to make it past the suggestion stage.

I think the main problem people are having is the feeling of being forced to do content. My personal view to having story/ achievements/ gear behind a dungeon, raid, or the like has been, "I don't care enough to bother." But a lot of folks can't shake that completionist drive so this sort of situation always gets their fur up.

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"Yasi.9065" said:

/edit: Also, please, stop trying to split the community. Strikes are for everyone.
Raids are for everyone
. Story is for everyone. If YOU refuse to do certain content doesnt mean that its exclusive to "labelX players". It is YOUR decision to ignore parts of the game.

Allow me to disagree. While the story is indeed for everyone, the raids are not. Do you remember the statements that the raids are designed to be completed
only by the most ....
players? And that the devs know that this category is not very large?

Yes, I agree with you, the raids/strikes/story can be tried by everyone. But this is not the Olympic Games - only to participate is not all when you have achievements tied to
beating
the encounter. Theoretically speaking, everyone can be an Olympic Champion. Practically .... you can count them.

Unfortunately, the strikes are more and more difficult - this is less and less a stepping point into raids, but more like a raid. And now, included into the story achievement. Mandatory.

So, please stop with your wrong statements. Not us, the players (or the person you answered) split the community. The split has been performed in the moment the raids were released - with that "famous" statement that raids are designed to be completed
only by the best/skillful/dedicated/patient/etc
players. ONLY. The rest were ignored.

I dont like story content. Its boring. Characters have no depth. There is no mystery, no intrinsic detail. Theres no action. Story is NOT for me.

Let me put it as friendly as I can:GW2 is an MMORPG. If you play this genre you accept:a) interaction with other players - a lot - via chat at least.b) that the game doesnt cater solely to your likes due to the vastness of the genre.

You are being incredibly disrespectful with your bashing of raids and strikemissions, just because its content YOU dont like. Many other DO like the strikemissions. Theres also quite a few that like the raidencounters. Just as there are players that like the story.Me? I accept that. I dont begrudge people liking the story those living world episodes. I just want the same respect.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:You guys know that you dont HAVE TO get all the achievements right?

I have a very fine tuned Effort/ Reward judgement system and PUGging for an emote fails to make it past the suggestion stage.

I think the main problem people are having is the feeling of being forced to do content. My personal view to having story/ achievements/ gear behind a dungeon, raid, or the like has been, "I don't care enough to bother." But a lot of folks can't shake that completionist drive so this sort of situation always gets their fur up.

Im a completionist as you call it. I do all the achievements. Many I really dont like at all - like those forcing me to play the story instances (often even repeatedly) or running around the world pressing 'interact' every few minutes. Do you see me complaining about being "forced" to do those?Why is it us raiders are being called toxic elitists, when its actually the other way around. Everytime theres even a slight - and let me be absolutely clear here, the new strikemission isnt even ENTRYLEVEL difficulty of instanced content in other mmorpgs - increase in difficulty theres people running to the forums and reddit complaining incessantly about it. Instead of just accepting it and doing it once for the achievement, or even going with it and giving that something new a try, those people create topic after topic demanding nerfs so they can afk their way to their achievement.Do you see us raiders creating topics bemoaning the fact that all that devtime is put into animated cutscenes or designing a crystal dragon I still have no clue what even the importance is off, except well... its gw2, so it has to have dragons.

Before I go even more on a rant... in short... just because you dont like parts of an mmorpg is absolutely no reason to go around badmouthing it. If you cant handle doing things you dont like in a game to achieve a goal, then really... mmorpg is the absolutely wrong game genre for you.

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