Lead the Wind — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Lead the Wind

Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 2, 2020 in Ranger

I don't know if Anet still "monitors" their trait and skill changes, but I think it's safe to assume that out of all the weapon trait changes they did a little over a year ago, this was the worst looking one back then and it still is. This is effectively only a "reduced cooldown and piercing" trait for the longbow (and the harpoon gun.. ehe), which for a GM trait is at the very least underwhelming compared to any other GM weapon trait.

My suggestion is simple. Scrap swiftness on projectile combo finishers, and reintroduce the old functionality from pre-specializations Remorseless: regain Opening Strike when gaining stealth. Longbow has stealth, the trait still works without longbow, it bumps up Opening Strike synergy from one to two GM traits, and it's kept in check by not being able to trait for Remorseless damage at the same time (so no easy stealth-into-Maul shenanigans with a ridiculous modifier attached to it).

To further touch on Opening Strike's lack of synergy with anything other than Remorseless, there is also the possibility to add the last remaining function of the old Remoreless trait (regain opening strike when killing a foe) to Predator's Onslaught, which seems fitting for a PvE-focused trait.

I know Opening Strike/Marksmanship rework suggetions have been posted plenty of times, but I think this is a subtle and easy way to give Lead the Wind a meaningful functionality outside the weapon modifiers, while at the same time adressing the uselessness of Opening Strike when not running Remorseless without doing a complete rework, overpowering it or having to shuffle traits around.

Comments

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    Post this in a meta professional thread for Anet to even look at it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    Longbow should not have interactions with Stealth.
    In fact, that it has a stealth skill in the first place disgusts me.
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    The swiftness, pierce and cooldown reduction are great. That's three traits in one.
    It even works for two weapons, unless most traits doing something similar.

    If you want better Opening strikes, take Remorseless. There is no need for two Opening Strike Grandmaster traits.
    Also, I don't think starting combat with crippling enemies from 1500 range away is useless at all.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    I think this trait is a bit weak for a few reasons despite beeing "3 traits in one".
    Cd reduction : Best thing. Super strong if you can stay on lb. Otherwise other talents work all the time.
    Swiftness : It looks like a minor. Getting mobility is nice but the way you trigger it is so soooooooo situational. Combo fields and projectile ugh… You need someone else aoe + I do not think this mobility is what you are looking for on lb.
    Piercing : Good on paper, super situational in practice. When I see lb I thing of Pve, safe damage from long range (piercing is not useful there) or Pvp, with positioning (high/low ground, people running around, all of this making piercing not usefull). Only place I can see this working is in a WvW zerg. You are protected, you have a lot of people and thus you can hit multiple target.

    So we have a trait truly working in 1 place. WvW zerg. You have your combo fields, lots of enemies and you are behind spamming skills.

    What is this trait is really missing? The same thing anet started to do on every weapon traits : adding an effect that is not tied to the weapon and will be useful on different weapon / skill set.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed. Replace it with some other defensive mechanic.

  • GUFF.5692GUFF.5692 Member ✭✭

    @OGDeadHead.8326 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    Stealth was the worst decision Anet ever made putting into the game. I loathe it, and have done so ever since release.
    The game would be far better off without stealth - period.

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    @OGDeadHead.8326 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    Stealth was the worst decision Anet ever made putting into the game. I loathe it, and have done so ever since release.
    The game would be far better off without stealth - period.

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    Imagine a class not carried by it's CLASS MECHANIC!?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    @OGDeadHead.8326 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    Stealth was the worst decision Anet ever made putting into the game. I loathe it, and have done so ever since release.
    The game would be far better off without stealth - period.

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    Imagine a class not carried by it's CLASS MECHANIC!?

    You do realize that Stealth is not a class mechanic, right?
    Thief class mechanics are Initiative and Stealing.
    While Thief has an overabundance of access to Stealth, other classes have Stealth, too.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    Imagine a class not carried by it's CLASS MECHANIC!?

    You do realize that Stealth is not a class mechanic, right?
    Thief class mechanics are Initiative and Stealing.
    While Thief has an overabundance of access to Stealth, other classes have Stealth, too.

    "Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet..."

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    This is what i was referring to...?

  • GUFF.5692GUFF.5692 Member ✭✭

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    Imagine a class not carried by it's CLASS MECHANIC!?

    You do realize that Stealth is not a class mechanic, right?
    Thief class mechanics are Initiative and Stealing.
    While Thief has an overabundance of access to Stealth, other classes have Stealth, too.

    "Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet..."

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    This is what i was referring to...?

    The problem is not that the smoke field is on the pet but that the pet has a smokefield with a very low cooldown (esp with beastmastery).
    I would say something similar if this low cooldown smokefield was on a signet for example. There is a high probability this will be addressed in the upcoming mega balance pass. It may be wise for Rangers to practice with different pets since an extremely high number use smokescale almost entirely.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    Imagine a class not carried by it's CLASS MECHANIC!?

    You do realize that Stealth is not a class mechanic, right?
    Thief class mechanics are Initiative and Stealing.
    While Thief has an overabundance of access to Stealth, other classes have Stealth, too.

    "Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet..."

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    This is what i was referring to...?

    The problem is not that the smoke field is on the pet but that the pet has a smokefield with a very low cooldown (esp with beastmastery).
    I would say something similar if this low cooldown smokefield was on a signet for example. There is a high probability this will be addressed in the upcoming mega balance pass. It may be wise for Rangers to practice with different pets since an extremely high number use smokescale almost entirely.

    Just make it a lightning field so you can stun people with leaps. That would make some really interesting builds.

    Edit* also it would make projectiles apply vulnerability which is what lb#3 used to do before lb got buffed...

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would make the projectiles to give 1 stack of unblockable when triggers a combo projectile.

    Like the revenant trait Malicious Reprisal, just one stack, no extra damage, on 1s icd . They even can go as far as reducing the piercing to 3 targets.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If you want better Opening strikes, take Remorseless. There is no need for two Opening Strike Grandmaster traits.
    Also, I don't think starting combat with crippling enemies from 1500 range away is useless at all.

    It's like you don't even understand the core issue. Opening Strike is what all the minor traits are about, yet their usefulness outside of your first attack is limited to Remorseless. No other class got minors that simply do nothing under the course of a fight unless you pick a specific GM trait.

    A way to fix this is to make all the GM traits interact with it differently OR change one of the minors. So yes, unless they go with a change to the minors, there absolutely is a need for not only two, but three GMs that all have some interaction with it. First and foremost by refreshing it. In fact, that is all the two other GMs need to do.

    There is a reason Revenant's Exposed Defenses refresh on elite skill use, because otherwise the trait would do jack all for the rest of an encounter. Ranger is even worse off considering that while the Rev's other minors are tied to ED, they still function without it. Ranger's minors don't, unless you can refresh Opening Strike during the fight. Remorseless would still be the only GM trait that would make an OS proc stronger and it would still be the only GM trait that would refresh OS at the rate it does with ranger's access to fury compared to stealth.

    My suggestion was a two birds one stone type, with Lead the Wind's secondary effect being underwhelming regardless.

    Bringing back a functionality of the old Remorseless trait seemed fitting considering LB has access to stealth. It wouldn't add any more stealth, it would play of the fact that LB has access to it while not being ranger's only source of it.

    If you want stealth removed or changed, it needs to be adressed at a fundamental level which Anet won't do.

    With upcoming change to Lead the Wind, this suggestion goes down the toilet for now. But OS still needs a look at.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well you now get quickness if you hit targets over 1200... Is that enough thou?

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @aymnad.9023 said:
    I think this trait is a bit weak for a few reasons despite beeing "3 traits in one".
    Cd reduction : Best thing. Super strong if you can stay on lb. Otherwise other talents work all the time.
    Swiftness : It looks like a minor. Getting mobility is nice but the way you trigger it is so soooooooo situational. Combo fields and projectile ugh… You need someone else aoe + I do not think this mobility is what you are looking for on lb.
    Piercing : Good on paper, super situational in practice. When I see lb I thing of Pve, safe damage from long range (piercing is not useful there) or Pvp, with positioning (high/low ground, people running around, all of this making piercing not usefull). Only place I can see this working is in a WvW zerg. You are protected, you have a lot of people and thus you can hit multiple target.

    So we have a trait truly working in 1 place. WvW zerg. You have your combo fields, lots of enemies and you are behind spamming skills.

    What is this trait is really missing? The same thing anet started to do on every weapon traits : adding an effect that is not tied to the weapon and will be useful on different weapon / skill set.

    Question what kinda damage now would you get you suppose with LB2 rapid fire now? think killing people on roaming build will be viable?

    Also that lead the wind thing sounds pretty useful use up a ability followed lead the wind to get out and reset and reposition then shoot again no?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Longbow should not have interactions with Stealth.
    In fact, that it has a stealth skill in the first place disgusts me.
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    The swiftness, pierce and cooldown reduction are great. That's three traits in one.
    It even works for two weapons, unless most traits doing something similar.

    If you want better Opening strikes, take Remorseless. There is no need for two Opening Strike Grandmaster traits.
    Also, I don't think starting combat with crippling enemies from 1500 range away is useless at all.

    The stealth on longbow is something I mildly agree with, but what's your problem with stealth in general when it comes to combat? Since I'm sure you know how saying something like that is just a kick to kitten of thieves and mesmers for example.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    Imagine a class not carried by it's CLASS MECHANIC!?

    You do realize that Stealth is not a class mechanic, right?
    Thief class mechanics are Initiative and Stealing.
    While Thief has an overabundance of access to Stealth, other classes have Stealth, too.

    "Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet..."

    @GUFF.5692 said:

    Agreed 100%. Stealth still remains the cause of a lot of problems regarding balance. Don't believe me? Stop using smokescale in a pvp environment. I am sure you will be much less effective. Most rangers and their builds are carried by this pet especially combined with longbow stealth.

    This is what i was referring to...?

    The problem is not that the smoke field is on the pet but that the pet has a smokefield with a very low cooldown (esp with beastmastery).
    I would say something similar if this low cooldown smokefield was on a signet for example. There is a high probability this will be addressed in the upcoming mega balance pass. It may be wise for Rangers to practice with different pets since an extremely high number use smokescale almost entirely.

    I believe it's been said before countless times in the ranger forums, but it's fair to say that the smokescale is overused in it's current state but that by itself doesn't mean that it's a problem and I think it's rather pointless to think that way. The core issues that most people have with ranger pets which is an attribute to almost every single one is that they can't hit a target and their skills are rather pointless if they do anything in any given player vs player mode.

    For example the smokescale is used in wvw for it's chase and defensive potential of smoke assault, the smoke field while an actual useful pet skill isn't really why the pet is used as much as it is in that given game mode. If you balanced any of the core pets to bring them up to par with the smokescale we'd see a more diverse range of pets that people are using, sure there would still be pets people consider "meta" but if the rest of the pets are at least usable it would facilitate in seeing the downfall of the smokescale.

    I don't even really disagree with the fact that the smokescales pet skill should probably get a slightly higher cooldown, I just strongly disagree with the way you and other people seem to be approaching this since it seems that your thoughts are misplaced in what we could really use as a class to balance out are overly used class mechanics.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xenash.1245 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Longbow should not have interactions with Stealth.
    In fact, that it has a stealth skill in the first place disgusts me.
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    The swiftness, pierce and cooldown reduction are great. That's three traits in one.
    It even works for two weapons, unless most traits doing something similar.

    If you want better Opening strikes, take Remorseless. There is no need for two Opening Strike Grandmaster traits.
    Also, I don't think starting combat with crippling enemies from 1500 range away is useless at all.

    The stealth on longbow is something I mildly agree with, but what's your problem with stealth in general when it comes to combat? Since I'm sure you know how saying something like that is just a kick to kitten of thieves and mesmers for example.

    I've written my opinion on stealth many times in other threads, too. It mainly concerns PvP though.
    In short, Stealth is a tool primary used to runaway and disable opponents' abilities that require a target.
    And since you are invisible it takes random chances to interact with you, practically negating interactions between you and the other player, running against what PvP should be about.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Xenash.1245 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Longbow should not have interactions with Stealth.
    In fact, that it has a stealth skill in the first place disgusts me.
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    The swiftness, pierce and cooldown reduction are great. That's three traits in one.
    It even works for two weapons, unless most traits doing something similar.

    If you want better Opening strikes, take Remorseless. There is no need for two Opening Strike Grandmaster traits.
    Also, I don't think starting combat with crippling enemies from 1500 range away is useless at all.

    The stealth on longbow is something I mildly agree with, but what's your problem with stealth in general when it comes to combat? Since I'm sure you know how saying something like that is just a kick to kitten of thieves and mesmers for example.

    I've written my opinion on stealth many times in other threads, too. It mainly concerns PvP though.
    In short, Stealth is a tool primary used to runaway and disable opponents' abilities that require a target.
    And since you are invisible it takes random chances to interact with you, practically negating interactions between you and the other player, running against what PvP should be about.

    I'd argue that being able to chain for long times of stealth can be an issue, but the short bursts of stealth are fine and do have their counter play depending on the build that someone might use. My rational here is that the same can be said for other boons like retaliation for example, since it can also limit and negate interactions depending on the build of the player it's used against.

    If it's anything I've always kept in mind the devs first intention when it came to stealth, where it shouldn't be used for long periods of time.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @aymnad.9023 said:
    I think this trait is a bit weak for a few reasons despite beeing "3 traits in one".
    Cd reduction : Best thing. Super strong if you can stay on lb. Otherwise other talents work all the time.
    Swiftness : It looks like a minor. Getting mobility is nice but the way you trigger it is so soooooooo situational. Combo fields and projectile ugh… You need someone else aoe + I do not think this mobility is what you are looking for on lb.
    Piercing : Good on paper, super situational in practice. When I see lb I thing of Pve, safe damage from long range (piercing is not useful there) or Pvp, with positioning (high/low ground, people running around, all of this making piercing not usefull). Only place I can see this working is in a WvW zerg. You are protected, you have a lot of people and thus you can hit multiple target.

    So we have a trait truly working in 1 place. WvW zerg. You have your combo fields, lots of enemies and you are behind spamming skills.

    What is this trait is really missing? The same thing anet started to do on every weapon traits : adding an effect that is not tied to the weapon and will be useful on different weapon / skill set.

    Question what kinda damage now would you get you suppose with LB2 rapid fire now? think killing people on roaming build will be viable?

    Also that lead the wind thing sounds pretty useful use up a ability followed lead the wind to get out and reset and reposition then shoot again no?

    By now do you mean the incoming patch?
    I think so. You can probably burst an unsuspecting foe or deal enough damage to scare them away because the defense / heals are nerfed on every profession. But if you are using gs then you should be careful too. It will get hit super hard and roaming will be full of thieves / mesmer.
    The current version is too hard to proc even if you want to reposition, the future one will be good both for offense and defense. I would have loved a lower range so it works for other weapon like axe but the changes to this trait are great.

  • doogal.9368doogal.9368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Longbow should not have interactions with Stealth.
    In fact, that it has a stealth skill in the first place disgusts me.
    Stealth has no business being applied to characters in combat.

    The swiftness, pierce and cooldown reduction are great. That's three traits in one.
    It even works for two weapons, unless most traits doing something similar.

    If you want better Opening strikes, take Remorseless. There is no need for two Opening Strike Grandmaster traits.
    Also, I don't think starting combat with crippling enemies from 1500 range away is useless at all.

    LOL well said.
    At first glance I love longbow. Then without pet swapping I just feel .. slow.
    But I agree for the most part. Stealth on longbow.... doesn't seem super well placed. Maybe get it over to a melee option.
    Always thought dagger offhand needed something else. But that could just be my inner thief talking.