Jump to content
  • Sign Up

New balance patch, time to change downstate?


lodjur.1284

Recommended Posts

With all (but particularly bursty) damage getting nerfed, it should be safe to nerf/remove the downstate.

My personal favorite option would be removing it entirely but reducing ressing speed by 50% and preventing more than 2 people from ressing the same target in addition to reworking the downstate skills that prevent safestomps (ele, thief, mesmer) is imo a good compromise.

Either way the patch is a big improvement but it seems the perfect time to deal with this issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zikory.6871 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zikory.6871 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

Are you disagreeing with me that a very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW) without (almost) anyone caring? The difference between having traits that do nothing (like ressing traits during no downstate) and traits that are outshone to such a degree that they never get picked isn't big.

So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

Problem is that the downstate like the AoE cap inherently and arbitrarily favor larger groups. I am aware of it's existence and my group goes to great lengths to put high amounts of cleave in our builds, we've adapted about as much as one can. We do rather well and can generally deal with the downstate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

I want numbers to matter less and gameplay/builds to matter more. That's not wanting anyone to take or easier on us, it's simply me stating "I personally believe WvW would be in a better place without (or with a nerfed) downstate".

So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

I think it would make skill matter more and make combat decisions more meaningful, to me both of those are good things, to others they might be bad things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

Are you disagreeing with me that a very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW) without (almost) anyone caring? The difference between having traits that do nothing (like ressing traits during no downstate) and traits that are outshone to such a degree that they never get picked isn't big.

So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

Problem is that the downstate like the AoE cap inherently and arbitrarily favor larger groups. I am aware of it's existence and my group goes to great lengths to put high amounts of cleave in our builds, we've adapted about as much as one can. We do rather well and can generally deal with the downstate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

I want numbers to matter less and gameplay/builds to matter more. That's not wanting anyone to take or easier on us, it's simply me stating "I personally believe WvW would be in a better place without (or with a nerfed) downstate".

So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

I think it would make skill matter more and make combat decisions more meaningful, to me both of those are good things, to others they might be bad things.

In a sense, I do disagree with "very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW)". Namely because Anet has never told us how WvW is expected to play. For the current zerg meta 100% but most of my roaming build have vastly different trait and skills. But to that point, even though balancing all traits for all game modes is unrealistic, I don't think its good to be ok with "useless" traits. And having existing useless traits isn't a good justification for other traits being moved to useless.

Your 2nd point, I agree. Down state in it current form is hard to combat when fighting outnumbered. I'm not sure this justifies complete removal but you did note "nerfs" as alternative which I can get onboard with.

Your 3rd point, I also agree. But in a sense, I also disagree. I think a majority of the player base is super casual and skill, good organization and practice can overcome most groups left in (NA) WvW that rely on what they have been told meta is. I believe a good group of 25-30 can and should be able to fight anything left playing on NA and wipes/losses are mostly due to poor playing/mistakes. So I agree that numbers should matter less but I think gameplay already matter more. A 15 man group shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with 50. But 15 can make it hard for 50 people if they play well and don't get sucked into blob fighting strats.

Thank you, with the patch preview everyone is looking at specifics and click bait reasons with no substance doesn't help stay constructive. You get people like me being facetious because it comes off as a petty complaint rather than a thought out opinion.

So I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think removing a fundamental part of the game (downstate) is the right way to go about it. I think it will promote pirate ship and long drawn out fights because people a majority of the player base will be too timid to push into melee. It will also promote forgoing support and front loading a huge bomb and running away(or hide in a keep), which doesn't promote healthy fights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zikory.6871 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Down state won't be removed because it will either leave some skills/traits useless in WvW, have to completely split them from game modes, or completely rework them so they are functionally different (affecting all game modes). Not only do I doubt they will allocate the resources to do this, I doubt they would do it at all.

We have had no downstate week. Besides a few traits being completely useless as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless wouldn't be such a terrible thing. Also this patch proves they want to try to balance the game.

I think you are wasting your time pushing for removal. Might as well make weekly posts about how long since Shattered Aegis was nerfed.

Just cause it's a sisyphean task doesn't mean it can be ignored. Pushing for removal is also a way of pushing for at least a nerf.

I still don't think you are selling your case for removal. No down state week was a event, thus they didn't have to consider skills/traits or long standing effects on the game mode. You're asking for a fundamental long term change...

First of changing like 10 traits (iirc) and 4 (iirc) skills in one gamemode isn't exactly a ton of effort is it?

Secondly the events are partly there to test out of things are a good idea or not.

Just like stuff like portable cannons and repair hammers never made it into the game. Because they weren't very popular.

I believe no downstate should make it into the game.

as opposed to a lot of things that are 99% useless

I don't know what you mean. Random percent sign that has no meaning other than trying to justify your opinion.

The vast majority of traits/skills are useless even if they technically do something. If you get harped up on a sign that's on you.

You seem to be arguing just for the case of arguing tbf

I'm asking you to justify your stance with more than anecdotal nonsense.

Are you disagreeing with me that a very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW) without (almost) anyone caring? The difference between having traits that do nothing (like ressing traits during no downstate) and traits that are outshone to such a degree that they never get picked isn't big.

So far every reason I've seen for removal has been a failure to adapt. "I couldn't beat a guy cuz they had downstate, even though I know they have down state and know what skills they have in downstate..." or "we lost that zerg fight cuz the other group rallied, even tho we know that its a feature and didn't plan or adapt to finishing downs" or "I lost a 2v1 cuz their friend ressed him, even though I know it part of the game."

Problem is that the downstate like the AoE cap inherently and arbitrarily favor larger groups. I am aware of it's existence and my group goes to great lengths to put high amounts of cleave in our builds, we've adapted about as much as one can. We do rather well and can generally deal with the downstate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

My guild of 20-25 often runs into the issue of getting a good hit on a 50+ group and not being able to finish downs, leading to a rally or them ressing their back line while we kite. This isn't a loss because of downstate, it happened because we didnt bring enough cleave or dps died or positioning made it to hard to get to the downs. It is on us to adapt and improve, not come to the forums and ask daddy anet to change it so its easier on us.

I want numbers to matter less and gameplay/builds to matter more. That's not wanting anyone to take or easier on us, it's simply me stating "I personally believe WvW would be in a better place without (or with a nerfed) downstate".

So I am asking you, justify why the player base would want this? (not just the vocal few here and on reddit)

I think it would make skill matter more and make combat decisions more meaningful, to me both of those are good things, to others they might be bad things.

In a sense, I do disagree with "very large number of traits/skills are so underpowered that they could be deleted (from WvW)". Namely because Anet has never told us how WvW is expected to play. For the current zerg meta 100% but most of my roaming build have vastly different trait and skills. But to that point, even though balancing all traits for all game modes is unrealistic, I don't think its good to be ok with "useless" traits. And having existing useless traits isn't a good justification for other traits being moved to useless.

I am not talking about the situational ones I am more talking about the ones that are just plain bad whether you're zerging, roaming or anything else.

While ideally there wouldn't be any traits that are utterly useless I don't believe that making 1 (2 for a few) trait/class (especially as none of them are crucial traits for get a build to work, beyond ressboting I guess) useless would be a a massive problem even if it isn't ideal.

Your 2nd point, I agree. Down state in it current form is hard to combat when fighting outnumbered. I'm not sure this justifies complete removal but you did note "nerfs" as alternative which I can get onboard with.

Well I would prefer removal, I would be very happy with just some kinda nerf to it but would accept no changes, well I might make a thread about it every few months but it's not gonna keep me up at night.

Your 3rd point, I also agree. But in a sense, I also disagree. I think a majority of the player base is super casual and skill, good organization and practice can overcome most groups left in (NA) WvW that rely on what they have been told meta is. I believe a good group of 25-30 can and should be able to fight anything left playing on NA and wipes/losses are mostly due to poor playing/mistakes. So I agree that numbers should matter less but I think gameplay already matter more. A 15 man group shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with 50. But 15 can make it hard for 50 people if they play well and don't get sucked into blob fighting strats.

It should be noted that a very vast majority of my experience is from playing in a group of 2-4 (and in very few cases 5-6). Therefore it's very rare that the downstate ever benefits us (tho it happens on very rare occasions). The opinions are most likely also a bit biased around making that kinda groupsize comparatively better.

In my opinion if a smaller group plays well enough and the larger group plays poorly enough there shouldn't be some hard limit to what you can take, currently there's a few systems that kinda create that limit, the downstate (on its current state) is one of them (the other is AoE caps but that deserves its own thread really).

I am aware that a removal of the downstate wouldn't suddenly allow us to go 3v20 (on any kind of frequent basis at any rate) but I feel it would certainly help a lot with doing outnumbered fights.

Thank you, with the patch preview everyone is looking at specifics and click bait reasons with no substance doesn't help stay constructive. You get people like me being facetious because it comes off as a petty complaint rather than a thought out opinion.

Ye I guess there's quite a lot of hyperbolic threads atm.

So I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think removing a fundamental part of the game (downstate) is the right way to go about it. I think it will promote pirate ship and long drawn out fights because people a majority of the player base will be too timid to push into melee. It will also promote forgoing support and front loading a huge bomb and running away(or hide in a keep), which doesn't promote healthy fights.

I have always kinda hated the downstate but in the current extremely bursty meta it almost feels like a necessary evil, I believe in the much less bursty meta that anet is constructing that it might not be, hence the timing of this thread. I personally would be happy about basically any change that weakens the downstate whether it's a complete removal or slight decrease to ressing speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NO thank you, if you're on a low population server like I am, the game is already like 90% running back from waypoints. The only thing that offsets this frustration is the occasional rally or ress from an ally, if you remove downstate you remove that altogether.

I'd only support downstate removal if revival skills could revive someone who is fully downed.

Sure, you can make the argument that this will help the weaker side, since they could get rid of enemies completely, but in reality that already happens with the Warclaw stomp and they just walk back from the waypoint too, just a bit slower.

Removing downstate would do little more than decrease TTK even more and increase frustration when outnumbered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Hannelore.8153 said:NO thank you, if you're on a low popoulation server like I am, the game is already like 90% running back from waypoints. The only thing that offsets this frustration is the occasional rally or ress from an ally, if you remove downstate you remove that altogether.

The downstate is a large part of what allows larger groups to just steamroll

I'd only support downstate removal if revival skills could revive someone who is fully downed.

Outside of combat sure

Sure, you can make the argument that this will help the weaker side, since they could get rid of enemies completely, but in reality that already happens with the Warclaw stomp and they just walk back from the waypoint too, just a bit slower.

When fighting outnumbered you can't really spare people to just sit around on their mounts

Removing downstate would do little more than decrease TTK even more and increase frustration when outnumbered.

The downstate (almost) always helps the bigger group, the smaller group has much more a fighting chance without it. Also TTK is already going up quite a bit this patch which is amazing for smaller groups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No-Downstate makes the game boring. Landing good burst and watching players evaporate into a gray nameplate rather than dealing with downstates/rallies removes too much play and is unsatisfying.

I'd rather see experiments with removing downstate's invulnerable tick or conditions persisting through transitions if anything is changed before no-downstate is ever considered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would remove the heal while tapping or rubing or whathever that looks on the downed ally.Also would disable the vengeance rally effect... and would save it for something else.

1 - Either u finish the player (yes warclaw finish is simple stupid and low effort from Anet to deal with the improvement of the downed system).2 - Use skill, banner, anything besides rubbing ally, to rez while its on downstate, this would valuate skills like search and rescue more.3 - Dead is dead, well... one coudld use a hard rez but that player would have a morale system with a penalty every time a player gets hard rezed it s a 10% damage and 20% health penalty... killing enemies would reduce that morale effect, similiar to morale penalty on gw1.

This would be some sorta hybrid downstate and rez from gw1 and 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Downed state is still the worst thing about this game and prob one of the biggest reasons sPVP failed so hard.

At launch, and for the next year, all i heard over and over was that downed state sucked cause it made 1-shot builds possible and ruined the flow of combat.

Not once in the entirety of this game have I ever been downed and thought, wow this is cool, i've got 4 new crappy skills to choose from. I hope the guy that thought downed state would make the game better has already been fired and will never work in the game industry again so he/she can't screw up another game.

Yeah I hate it that much.

GW2 would be made much better if 1-shotting were removed, and maybe then add a resurrect skill to certain classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Blockhead Magee.3092 said:Leave it alone. There are too many players who can't plan the fight out to the end, so they want to remove a piece of it to make it easier for themselves.

Nah I can play around it fine to the degree that it's possible. But the issue at hand is whether it's good for the game or not and the fact is that it always favors the bigger group far more than is reasonable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I literally just made a thread about this topic a week ago.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96369/nerf-wvw-downstate/p1

This problem is just going to get worse in WvW.There are so many problems with the current downstate mechanic.

  1. RALLY, this just needs to be removed in WvW.
  2. Health/Res speed. Too much health for a downstate, it's basically another health bar. Also the res speed is so much faster than you can cleave. Goodluck stomping downed if you don't have stealth/stab/blind.

Idk, I feel like the devs don't really care because they don't really play this mode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...