Balance Patch Preview - WvW

[mad.8374]

proba the best patch ever, every thing is not perfect but with this patch you can't proba not rollface ur dps or ur heal like a monkey as now

[Taylan.2187]

@SehferViega.8725 said:Yeah.. now noob player will be able to safely farm their Gift of Battle and Karma without being oneshotted and every noob will try finally WvW!!

So, do you want new players in WvW, or not? Because last I heard everyone was complaining about the lack of players. Everyone who joins WvW for the first time is, by definition, a noob.

I swear, some people just want to complain. >_>

[Arctisavange.7261]

@kialb.2098 said:proba the best patch ever, every thing is not perfect but with this patch you can't proba not rollface ur dps or ur heal like a monkey as now

I agree on that aspect but as many who have played this game since launch, have gone through years and years of patches and anet botching of balance. Most see the after patch gameplay based on patch notes will completely favor ranged gameplay over melee and condition over power. Theres no balance on those 2 last aspects and previous metas have completely shown how much disgust people had against only/mainly pirateship gameplay being viable in blob fights.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@"Dennis.7856" said:The patch overall seems amazing tbh. I'm so glad that you finally start reducing power creep in this game!!! <3 There are a few things to i want to point out.

1st of all the never ending issue with Spellbreaker.

Have you ever thought about scaling Greatsword F1 "Arcing Slice" damage with Adrenalin level? Its the only damage weapon from warrior that doesnt scale with adrenalin for whatever reason. Doesnt really make sense that you only get more fury while Power scalings stay the same. So maybe you should just change this Arcing slice mechanic first instead of tuning it down in general.

2nd Issue: Spellbreaker Elite: Bubble

Im more than glad you finally nerf bubble again but the main issue with bubble isnt even the targetcap but the fact that it follows the warrior. With this nerf you wont change all too much. The only thing you do is giving smaller groups even a harder time at contesting bigger groups. Bigger groups with 10+ Spellbreaker will still holdW while spamming bubbles and you still wont be able to do anything against it.

3rd (and this will be the biggest issue after patch (with current balance notes)): 4 Stat Equipment

4 stat equipment has always been op. But with the lower amount of cleanses and heals, trailblaizer, minstrel and marauder will be the only viable stats. Everything else will just underperform even harder than it already does due to the fact that you just have more free stats overall if you decide to go 4 stat instead of 3 stat.I would suggest to lower the 2 main stats of 4 stat equipment so you kinda get a trade off when going for 4 stats combos. Example would be:Nomad vs Minstrel:Full set of Minstrel (without runes or infusions) gives 1172 toughness, 1172 healing power, 633 vitality, and 633 concentration. = 3610 statsFull set of Nomad (without runes or infusions) gives 1382 toughness, 960 healing power and 960 vitality. = 3302 statsThere is no reason to give 4 stat combos more stats than 3 stat combos. I would personally love if you reduced both main stats of 4 stat gear down to a point that 4stat gear and 3 stat gear gives the same amount of stats overall. It would maybe help balancing it a bit at least.

4th traits that still seem to be a bit overtuned

Wont go too deep into detail about this. Just in general there are still a lot of traits like for exampleGuardian --> Honor --> Grandmaster Trait "Force of Will" that give you a lot of improvements such as 300 bonus vitality + heal scaling 1% per 100 vitality which is good but a bit overtuned for my taste. There are a lot of these traits tho. Also Reaper --> Grandmaster trait --> "Reaper's Onslaught" gives you free perma quickness + 300 ferocity + cd reduction if you hit "Life Reap". Its just too many free bonuses without giving you any disadvantage. So ofc other Grandmaster traits will always look bad next to those traits. I would personally do it like you already did with some other traits as well. Give something to suit a classes role for example "Force of Will" = healer trait obv since it gives you very goof heal scaling or "Reaper's Onslaught" as a dps trait and take something else from them away for example toughness or power or whatever.Best example pretty much is Berserker --> minor trait --> "Fatal Frenzy"You get 300 power and 300 condi damage when entering berserker mode so its obv a dps trait but at the same time you take away 300 toughness to make him more vulnerable for incoming dmg. Thats a much better concept of how traits should work instead of just giving free stats or enhancements without taking anything away in exchange.

Not sure whether others think about this the same way like I do. Would love to see more opinions on that tbh.Thanks for reading this! cheers \o

Im partially agreeing with you on the trade off side. Im upposed of the 'skill used on traitlines with x on a'. For example, the traits for guard to cast 'lesser Smite conditions' on healing means IT does An aoe damage and 2 condicleanseMeanwhile in the same traitline there's this trait to heal the guard and give Fury on meditation. The other 2 options on Grand master Line are suddenly far less viable because healing skill now grants: 2 condiclear, aoe damage, Fury and healing. That's tadly too much, if the 'skill Just cleansed 2 condis IT would be good for a minor trait. And to be fair i do not understand either why its on the same traitline in the first place

[Vlad.4513]

Finally, these changes were really needed, if people want to one shot others or fight less than 8-10 seconds then wvw is not for them, fights are supposed to be strategical and not a smash buttons contest.I think this is a step forward in the right direction.

Thank you Anet!

[Spadassin.4076]

These changes are great, we'll finally have something closer to skillfull rather than spammy fights. But some pretty important things have never been adressed so far even though they're at the root of many underlying issues regarding the decrease of user base.

• Fix WvW lags or decrease the player limit per map. I know you have probably run some cost-opportunity analysis and found out it wasn't wasn't worth it... It actually is, I don't play on reset anymore, many leads stopped because blob fights are not an option anymore. Leads are hard to replace, when they quit, it drives the whole population of the server down. Furthermore, AWS solutions are much more flexible than they used to be. I am sure you can work that out.
• Be much more aggressive on bans for hacks. Do something about it... I still see hackers that I reported months ago with video footage. Slight speed hacks go unnoticed but are too much of an advantage. I also see a lot of obvious hacks , same people teleporting and flying for months. How is this possible? It is not acceptable.
• Finally, it would be awesome to change the stealth mechanic. I am the first to abuse it because... it is actually broken. It is not only frustrating to play against but a lot of people use speed hacks while in stealth. By the way, if you plan on keeping the stealth mechanic as it is, you should consider nerfing backstab further than that.

Cheers.

[Spadassin.4076]

These changes ARE HORRIBLE.What you will create is every group will not run:2 minstrel Firebrands,2-3 trailblazer scourges1 Spellbreaker.

Diversity will DIE completely.

Organized roaming groups already run that by the way. You can also add condi rev, elem or scrapper, they'll still be as viable as they are now after theses changes. Also, if you want to talk about diversity, as of now people only run zerk or minstrel (don't bullshit me with marauder/valkyrie variants or magi earrings on your firebrand). There is no diversity, individual skills have much more impact than builds.

Also. Why would you lower EVERY CC down to 0.01 co-eff?????Different CCs fill in different purposes.All this does is that it will make some forms of CC completely worthless because there will no point to use them since there will always a better one.

These changes will make the fights much more skillful than they are now. It is actually the purpose of these changes if you didn't notice. Are you upset because you won't one shot people with longbow 4 into 2 anymore ?

[Pretor.5193]

When will you translate that on SP?

[Memento Mori.1326]

@Bowser.7361 said:FINALLY SOMETHING DECENT GOOD JOB ANET! Long fight, mean more skills to show, im liking this EVEN if my main is getting nerf really bad im ok with it

+1 :)

[Ben K.6238]

@Senqu.8054 said:Please ANet, dont remove the second Dodge from Mirage. Mirage is the only reason i Play gw2 from time to time. Since you killed chrono there was Not very much left for me but if you really make this change bouth elite specs from mesmer gain a penalty if taken. I feel like This is totally wrong. Why should i get punished for just playing a class i bought with my money. I cant See this anywhere Else. no other class gets facepunshed like mesmer. Its like you want to make the gameplay as much unconfortable as possible so People will finally quit This Game. I have more than 3000h playtime and i played it with 2 Dodges and now its to op for Mesmer. In my opinion, in special this change, shows how good your understanding about This Game is. You have to remove your own mechanics from your Game what a joke.

Right now while reading this patch notes im ashamed that i have ever recommendet this Game to my friends and i feel like i have to refund them because they bought it. i cant find the words for my anger but if you bring this change i will quit and Never come back.

Play core mesmer. It looks like Mirage is going to have that tradeoff in exchange for access to ambush attacks (which are only dangerous on a condi build anyway). Thankfully core mes still has plenty of utility to offer both power and condi builds; it's just the Mirage dodge mechanic and grandmaster trait selection that made it a better choice historically.

It's highly likely most of your friends are playing other classes, anyway.

[Zikory.6871]

@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@kialb.2098 said:proba the best patch ever, every thing is not perfect but with this patch you can't proba not rollface ur dps or ur heal like a monkey as now

I agree on that aspect but as many who have played this game since launch, have gone through years and years of patches and anet botching of balance. Most see the after patch gameplay based on patch notes will completely favor ranged gameplay over melee and condition over power. Theres no balance on those 2 last aspects and previous metas have completely shown how much disgust people had against only/mainly pirateship gameplay being viable in blob fights.

Pirate ship is a symptom of the player base. It's the path of least resistance and much easier to organize.

They nerf CoR to a 10s CD and groups will probably still try to use it to pirate ship or stack weavers.

Imo smart groups are looking at the notes trying to build a fun melee centric comp. Everyone else is trying to figure out how they can get carried from 1200 range.

[Moonglum.4659]

I still play wvw. Minority time is vanilla sylvani arcane ele combining immobilize on earth with massive damage on fire. Would tag most of a zerg. Needed nerfing has been, but I wonder whether full account has been taken of the light armour and health pool of formerly higher damage classes.Main is either herald (or vanilla for 1-2 v 1-2) condi with Mace/Axe and staff. Only survived against metas simply because of surprise factor. in roaming, and of course cc/anti condi in big fights. Looks like both condi and power damage so badly nerfed compared to say mesmer shatters, that not possible to play at all. Axe 5 only usable if there is a lot of chaos (then I admit it can burst with cc), with the delay and positioning difficulty it is harsh to go quite so far as nearly zeroing condi damage rather than just nerfing it by reducing to one stack. Put that with the axe 4 cooldown (only really usable twice if sacrifice specialisations to trait into bonus energy, so putting in long cool down is rubbishing a trait) axe is effectively eliminated as a choice of weapon, and makes the trait that triggers on torment stacks a waste, with the Mace nerf and the staff cooldowns...it looks like Wvw melee non condi goes from awkward to impossible - the power nerfs minor in comparison.

[Junkpile.7439]

Mirage makes me sick anyways. I don't really wanna see any mirages in game. It's like mesmer for players who can't play.

[cerpico.5098]

You have literally destroyed WvW forced it to be PvP and alienated the WvW population once again to what ends. I have been playing this game since launch invested countless hours and time and spent real world money on items from the shop none of that matters if you are going to massively destroy the game mode I have leveled 12 characters in solely. WvW has seen a decline in Population densities since it began most of that in the form of mass exoduses every time you change the mechanics of the characters in WvW. This does not occur instantly since people want to see what you did but, after finding out that classes they have spent hours upon hours developing and learning get destroyed with a single update droves of people leave. It is hard enough to get people into the WvW mode and now you make it increasingly diffilcult to remain there. I base all of this comment on your upcoming changes but, since I love WvW I will wait and see how this effects the current player base and if it drops after the first week of game play.

[RedBaron.6058]

Well, after thinking a bit more about the proposed changes I realized that maybe ANet wants to make all classes the same and keep selling skins. Each class will be a different skin but everything else will be the same...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

what about draconic echo effecting 10 targets? theres way too much boon spam right now and you guys are nerfing boon rips, so...

[Arctisavange.7261]

@Zikory.6871 said:

@Arctisavange.7261 said:

@kialb.2098 said:proba the best patch ever, every thing is not perfect but with this patch you can't proba not rollface ur dps or ur heal like a monkey as now

I agree on that aspect but as many who have played this game since launch, have gone through years and years of patches and anet botching of balance. Most see the after patch gameplay based on patch notes will completely favor ranged gameplay over melee and condition over power. Theres no balance on those 2 last aspects and previous metas have completely shown how much disgust people had against only/mainly pirateship gameplay being viable in blob fights.

Pirate ship is a symptom of the player base. It's the path of least resistance and much easier to organize.

They nerf CoR to a 10s CD and groups will probably still try to use it to pirate ship or stack weavers.

Imo smart groups are looking at the notes trying to build a fun melee centric comp. Everyone else is trying to figure out how they can get carried from 1200 range.

Stability is the main key factor in any form of melee pushes. I dont know any super human that has the ability to put 1-2 seconds of stability duration to work up against crowd control skills that blobs are tossing you from 900-1200 range. Its just blatant stupidity and this is why pirateship meta will take place again.

One skill or boon does define the gameplay completely. Necro F1 being a example from recent years.

[scerevisiae.1972]

I'm not sure what these changes seek to accomplish. If it's just about increasing TTK, a far easier and less controversial change would be to add 8/9/10K base health to all the light/med/heavy classes and call it a day.

I don't understand the mirage single dodge nerf, i think that change is a bad idea. If anything i would have said mirage should have 3 dodges, since it's their core mechanic, and then nerf based on that. elusive mind shouldn't stunbreak that's a good change.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Senqu.8054 said:Please ANet, dont remove the second Dodge from Mirage. Mirage is the only reason i Play gw2 from time to time. Since you killed chrono there was Not very much left for me but if you really make this change bouth elite specs from mesmer gain a penalty if taken. I feel like This is totally wrong. Why should i get punished for just playing a class i bought with my money. I cant See this anywhere Else. no other class gets facepunshed like mesmer. Its like you want to make the gameplay as much unconfortable as possible so People will finally quit This Game. I have more than 3000h playtime and i played it with 2 Dodges and now its to op for Mesmer. In my opinion, in special this change, shows how good your understanding about This Game is. You have to remove your own mechanics from your Game what a joke.

Right now while reading this patch notes im ashamed that i have ever recommendet this Game to my friends and i feel like i have to refund them because they bought it. i cant find the words for my anger but if you bring this change i will quit and Never come back.

Mirage is enough reason to stop in the first placeITs powerspec is macro's by alotITs condiform is disgustingly passiveAnd its dodges are Just like litterally the Opposite as they should (you can channel skills, stunbreak and safestomp from a dodge which no other class can...)

ITs been reason enough for other people to stop allready

Stop QQ and learn the game

[Stand The Wall.6987]

at least make it 0.1, 0.01 is too ridiculous.

[Hiraga Taichiru.1580]

Me     : Hey Chrono! how are you?Chronomancer: Hey, im somehow OK... whatsup?Me     : Do you rememeber your only to effective skills?Chronomancer: Do you meanTides Of Time and Gravity Well?Me     : Yea... they got nerfed.. now they deal no damage, good luck mate for your survival.Chronomancer: Whaaa...??! well im quitting this game, Please Anet find someone to replace me. I'm retiring

[Deniara Devious.3948]

The problem with this "balance" patch is that it is basically just shaving the multipliers and adjusting some cooldowns. I am fine that powerful CC skills do almost zero damage. In general one skill should not do multiple powerful things at same time, unless it is coupled with a handicap or a very long cooldown.

One of the biggest problems, at least in EU tier #1, is the awful lag in prime time. You cannot activate any skill without considerable multi second delay when a 3-way fight occurs. The key reasons for the lag are skills, which affect more than 5 targets or the abundant boons. All these require a lot of computations for the servers. I would advice to tone down all traits and skills to max 5 targets, except those which have a long cool down. I would use 60 seconds as a general rule of thumb here. E.g. mass invisibility (mesmer elite) is fine and not overpowered.

Guardian (especially Firebrand) will still be the most popular class, because it can spew boons like no tomorrow, has great access to condition cleanse, stability etc. Guardian has been the WvWvW meta since release in Autumn 2012 and this balance patch won't change this. Most commanders will play guardian, period.

Necromancers will continue to very popular, because they are the best class to corrupt and remove boons and do AoE burst.

Almost every single warrior build is using greatsword (GS) and this has been the case for many years. This balance patch won't change this, since forceful greatsword is so amazing trait it simply outshines anything else warrior has and has great trait synergy. Shield will remain as the most popular offhand. If you want better balance between warrior weapons, something needs to be done. Either enhance the least used weapons e.g. longbow projectiles are super slow (make them faster) and return adrenaline gain to warhorn. Or alternatively tone down greatsword related traits.

Core engineer has been the worst core spec, because the previous patches have "balanced" engineer by over nerfing the core, instead of properly toning down the elite specs. Holosmith should still either lose some damage or sustain (e.g. 4 s stability from Crystal Configuration: Eclipse). Explosives trait line is still an awful mess. Using healing skill is throwing grenade barrage with grenadier trait, which makes no sense. No using healing skill is install reveal and most of the time the damage is wasted. Grenadier should increase the range of the grenades to 1200 or 1500 range. Grenades are suicide anyways, when enemy zerg has near permanent retaliation.

Permanent stealth should NOT exist in WvWvW. It allows to hide in keeps or stonemist castle forever. I would say to cap the stealth duration maximum to 8 - 15 seconds and after that becomes automatic reveal. Reveal should last same time (4 seconds) as in spvp, because stealth is inherently more powerful and useful in WvWvW than spvp.

My prediction is that with these changes the most popular classes will remain popular. The zerg meta will drift more towards long range pirate ship and condition spam. Roaming is already very unbalanced, thanks to specs which can reset the fight whenever they want.

One important aspect in doing the balance patch is consideration: will it be fun? Some specs e.g. huge damage from ranged and ability to stealth might be fun to play, but they are not fun to play against. Some players enjoy playing insta gibbed, but nobody likes to be one-shot. On the other hand if fights last too long time and nobody dies, I wouldn't consider it fun either.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@"Deniara Devious.3948" said:The problem with this "balance" patch is that it is basically just shaving the multipliers and adjusting some cooldowns. I am fine that powerful CC skills do almost zero damage. In general one skill should not do multiple powerful things at same time, unless it is coupled with a handicap or a very long cooldown.

I agree with you on the most parts and therefor i respons to this one. Look at IT this way: balancing is NOT Done after this patch. Like the OP Stated there Will be more changes and tweeks to builds. Best to balance down differences is 'devide' Them by a certain equal multiplier (Which happens to cc and autoattacks and autoprocs) and after that look what happensWhat do people use?What is considered strongest?What part gets exploited?What part gets underlighted like this?And from these questions you can..and are able to construct further to get a grip on the meta. Should anet be allowed to dictate meta's? No it's still player freedome, but they should be allowed to intervene (look at what happened to warrior banner)

And this is exactly why im okay with changes because...from my point of view its Just a step in the right direction; a step back to observe

[Xion.5694]

Mirage 1 dodge in WvW - I have nothing more to say than XD./Hint hint:/ dodge trough oder zerg group wile mirage does not auto move on dodge, and dodge movement speed is less than others /end of hint hint/.

You've deleted the chrono proffesion, now /gg to mirages.

Lets look on the perma stealth thieves...Oh no, still 3 dodges and perma stealth? That looks BaLaNcEd for sure!

[Ghostof Luzifer.6159]

CMC please dont listen too all the babyrage guys here...

@cerpico.5098 said:You have literally destroyed WvW forced it to be PvP and alienated the WvW population once again to what ends. I have been playing this game since launch invested countless hours and time and spent real world money on items from the shop none of that matters if you are going to massively destroy the game mode I have leveled 12 characters in solely. WvW has seen a decline in Population densities since it began most of that in the form of mass exoduses every time you change the mechanics of the characters in WvW. This does not occur instantly since people want to see what you did but, after finding out that classes they have spent hours upon hours developing and learning get destroyed with a single update droves of people leave. It is hard enough to get people into the WvW mode and now you make it increasingly diffilcult to remain there. I base all of this comment on your upcoming changes but, since I love WvW I will wait and see how this effects the current player base and if it drops after the first week of game play.

@Senqu.8054 said:Please ANet, dont remove the second Dodge from Mirage. Mirage is the only reason i Play gw2 from time to time. Since you killed chrono there was Not very much left for me but if you really make this change bouth elite specs from mesmer gain a penalty if taken. I feel like This is totally wrong. Why should i get punished for just playing a class i bought with my money. I cant See this anywhere Else. no other class gets facepunshed like mesmer. Its like you want to make the gameplay as much unconfortable as possible so People will finally quit This Game. I have more than 3000h playtime and i played it with 2 Dodges and now its to op for Mesmer. In my opinion, in special this change, shows how good your understanding about This Game is. You have to remove your own mechanics from your Game what a joke.

Right now while reading this patch notes im ashamed that i have ever recommendet this Game to my friends and i feel like i have to refund them because they bought it. i cant find the words for my anger but if you bring this change i will quit and Never come back.

@appelflap.8310 said:so mirage get's 1 dodge, daredevil still has 3 dodges?no nerfs to shadow arts? no nerf to perma stealth? (i thought you guys wanted more counterplay) no nerf to thief's stolen items? detonate plasma will still be overpowered?no nerfs to food and nourishment in wvw? no nerfs to sigils in wvw? (sigil of draining, cleansing,....)Anet, do you guys even play gw2?

@Xion.5694 said:Mirage 1 dodge in WvW - I have nothing more to say than XD./Hint hint:/ dodge trough oder zerg group wile mirage does not auto move on dodge, and dodge movement speed is less than others /end of hint hint/.

You've deleted the chrono proffesion, now /gg to mirages.

Lets look on the perma stealth thieves...Oh no, still 3 dodges and perma stealth? That looks BaLaNcEd for sure!

Anyone who is against this patch is for the 13k crits of rev hammer 2, the deadeye builds, the mirages, the 20k longbow slb, the 7k bullscharge, etc etc... The goal is (hopefully) to reduce the button spam and generall power/utility creep.

-->people like this havent really thought on a meta/overarching level about these changes and sorely qq because of self interesst. They dont care what might be healthy for the game, they are just crying because things are changing. You will allways have people like that. Noone argues that this massive update might lead to imbalance and a somewhat unpredictable meta. People like these guys here fail to see that this patch isnt simply a balance patch rather a paradigm shift in order to create a healthier gameplay experience, they fail to see that not every change might be warranted or turn out great, but should rather be seen as part of the big reset button this game despereatly needs.If people would focus less on the individual changes but rather on the bigger picture it would imensly improve the feedback..The debate shouldnt evolve around whether individual classes will be viable or even if there will be a condi meta or if everyone will be running around in trailblazer gear after the patch. All these things can and are announced to be addressed in the future via hotfixes and balance patches every 4-6 weeks.

The question you should be asking yourself is: Are you in favor of decreeping the game or not?and honestly, I cant imagine someone actually being against reducing power/utility creep in wvw or spvp.