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Shadow in the ice end is too weird (LS5 ep2 - Heavy spoilers)


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Because the charr are not really critical thinkers by majority. They'll follow Bangar over believing a commander who is either not charr or has 'betrayed' the charr and been around non-charr for too long.

Other races would be more inclined to believe the Commander, but that would be precisely what Bangar wants. He wants an excuse to go on the warpath again, particularly against humanity.

Given the centaur in the cinematic trailer for this story, I'm reasonably certain we'll be seeing the charr under Bangar invading Kryta, with the help of centaur. All this to aid Jormag's 'aim' to simply cause chaos to get at Aurene I imagine.

That said I did like this episode. The spirits not being corrupted is a surefire indication to me that 'divine' forces can't be subverted or corrupted by Elder Dragons.

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Bangar is a very paranoid person for certain. His continue thought about using Jormag no matter how much people tell him it will not work is probably the strongest influence Jormag has over him.Jormag is all about manipulating people with promises and "giving it to them" to accept corruption but she focus on making that desire stronger to the point they become obssessed with that "need"

Banger has shown to be very anti-peace, Pro-Independant from other Races for Charr, and paranoid. These are very bad for his mentality because Jormag only has to enhance these desires of his to the point he only thinks about making these thing happen so he believes Jormag can give it to him. All of which Jormag will give to him BUT he gives into corruption and becomes Jormag's "Champion" thus losing his freedom and will because he "believes" he is still in control.

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@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Because the charr are not really critical thinkers by majority. They'll follow Bangar over believing a commander who is either not charr or has 'betrayed' the charr and been around non-charr for too long.

I don't agree that the Charr aren't critical thinkers. Their culture is built on the tactics of war and conquest. Is war and conquest the most diplomatic way of thinking? No. But I wouldn't say that makes the Charr any less critical thinkers. I think there are plenty of examples of critical thinking across different tiers of Charr society, even going back as far as the personal story.

My understanding is that Bangar still has a big voice over the Blood Legion, but not necessarily so much among the other legions-- hence why there are much fewer renegade Charr from non-Blood legions (correct me if this is wrong-- I could definitely be wrong), and why Bangar thinks this move will help his reputation.

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Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

I agree they're building up to a civil war of some kind, but I have a hard time coming up with a place/motivation for it that makes sense. Bangar is already the Imperator of Blood Legion, and the rank and file don't have much reason to revolt yet, so I don't see why they would be fighting in their own lands unless the other Legions are the aggressors. Maybe he declares himself Khan-Ur and tries to rally the footsoldiers of the other Legions to join him, so the remaining Charr from the other Legions... attack? I don't know, it doesn't really gel together for me. This seems like something Bangar might do, but I don't know if the other Legions would actually invade Blood territory over this, rather than simply try to keep a tighter grip on their soldiers and prepare their defenses while spreading their own propaganda.

We do have that unopened gate at the south end of Grothmar Valley though. Seems like they plan on introducing Sacnoth Valley and that's where the entrance will be. So I think it probably will be a fight in Blood Legion territory.

Either way, my big question about bringing in a Civil War subplot is how they advance the Jormag narrative at the same time. I have a hard time seeing them suddenly dropping this whole Jormag plot for two whole episodes while we fight Bangar's civil war. If there is going to be a civil war, it's because Jormag wants something from it, and I think it needs to be more specific than "chaos". I can't think of how a war in the Blood Legion homelands advances Jormag's agenda.

Edit: (Although come to think of it maybe Jormag just wants a Khan-Ur as its champion rather than just an Imperator and pushes Bangar to try for it.)

I think a big part of this is going to hinge on what the heck Bangar was doing in the Shiverpeaks this whole time, which we'll find out more about in this upcoming Vision of the Past with Darkrime Delves.

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If the next map is in the Homelands, my guess is that Jormag is going to do Bangar a solid. If their plan really is to bring the charr under the command of someone they have their claws in, why not launch an invasion, give the man a pressing threat to unite the charr in opposition to? If Bangar 'manages' to win, it'd give credence to his claims of being the only one who can handle Jormag, give him more to build on than the he-said-they-said that we all seem to expect after what happened with Drakkar. It'd also put us in the position of needing to fight on the same side as Bangar for a while, neither of us able to move openly against each other, which would be a nice bit of variety over how Caudecus and Joko played out.

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@Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

I agree they're building up to a civil war of some kind, but I have a hard time coming up with a place/motivation for it that makes sense. Bangar is already the Imperator of Blood Legion, and the rank and file don't have much reason to revolt yet, so I don't see why they would be fighting in their own lands unless the other Legions are the aggressors. Maybe he declares himself Khan-Ur and tries to rally the footsoldiers of the other Legions to join him, so the remaining Charr from the other Legions... attack? I don't know, it doesn't really gel together for me. This seems like something Bangar might do, but I don't know if the other Legions would actually
invade
Blood territory over this, rather than simply try to keep a tighter grip on their soldiers and prepare their defenses while spreading their own propaganda.

We do have that unopened gate at the south end of Grothmar Valley though. Seems like they plan on introducing Sacnoth Valley and that's where the entrance will be. So I think it probably
will
be a fight in Blood Legion territory.

Either way, my big question about bringing in a Civil War subplot is how they advance the Jormag narrative at the same time. I have a hard time seeing them suddenly dropping this whole Jormag plot for two whole episodes while we fight Bangar's civil war. If there
is
going to be a civil war, it's because Jormag wants something from it, and I think it needs to be more specific than "chaos". I can't think of how a war in the Blood Legion homelands advances Jormag's agenda.

Edit: (Although come to think of it maybe Jormag just wants a Khan-Ur as its champion rather than just an Imperator and pushes Bangar to try for it.)

I think a big part of this is going to hinge on what the heck Bangar was
doing
in the Shiverpeaks this whole time, which we'll find out more about in this upcoming Vision of the Past with Darkrime Delves.

Well they did abandon Kralk after killing Balthazar in Path of Fire, despite the power boost, to focus on Joko for three episodes. So it really wouldn't be unusual for them to focus solely on the Charr for two episodes, especially as they're technically just one season 4 episode delivered in two halves and at about the same combined cadence.

With the cinematic we had at Pax, we saw the snowy mountains in the back and a Raven flying that led to images of a Charr city burning. I've always thought that was indicative of the Flame Legion, not Primordus. So with that, are we going to see an revolt of Flame Legion against Bangar? Or are we going to see Flame Legion acting with Bangar?

I think they mentioned they were going to try to do something similar to the election they did with Ellen and Evon, so I imagine that will come into play for the election of a Khan-ur or something. Whether that's before Bangar leaves the plot and Bangar revolts, or after he dedicates himself solely to Jormag and they need a replacement I don't know. I suppose it could also just represent the Renegades instead of the Flame Legion.

As far as Jormag's motivations go, Jormag works away at people's spirit. Tries to knock them down, encourages them to betray each other, tries to alienate them so that she can swoop in and save the day. Having a civil war, depleting forces and morale could make them more susceptible to her whispers. Could also force them to rely on her for a power boost to strike back. I really wouldn't be surprised to see this situation wind up looking initially poorly against Bangar's favor at first, with him leaning that much more into his dependence on Jormag.

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@Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Either way, my big question about bringing in a Civil War subplot is how they advance the Jormag narrative at the same time. I have a hard time seeing them suddenly dropping this whole Jormag plot for two whole episodes while we fight Bangar's civil war. If there
is
going to be a civil war, it's because Jormag wants something from it, and I think it needs to be more specific than "chaos". I can't think of how a war in the Blood Legion homelands advances Jormag's agenda.

What seems most likely to me at this point is: Bangar starts a Charr civil war during episode 3, loses during episodes 3 and 4 (as those are the push-pull map described by Anet), and at the end of episode 4, goes back to Jormag with the Commander giving chase (Both meet Jormag again, as the latter hinted at in the first two episodes), Bangar uses Braham's bow to free Jormag, gets corrupted along with his supporters, and we're left to deal with both Jormag and his additional Frost Legion, going into episode 5.

Jormag seems to be playing both sides to go to him for aid, gaining followers either way. Telling the PC to seek his aid against a "terrible threat," which may to be referring to Bangar, while manipulating Bangar into a losing civil war and promising him his aid as a champion would either or both ways benefit Jormag and give him access to large, willing armies of his own, while at the same time distracting and weakening his biggest threats with the civil war.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:

I think they mentioned they were going to try to do something similar to the election they did with Ellen and Evon, so I imagine that will come into play for the election of a Khan-ur or something.

Not exactly.

  • After episode four, again I'm going to be somewhat vague here, but we want to revisit some of the types of content we pioneered in the past. We learned a lot with Living World Season One and one thing it did very well was to bring the community into the story, and make their actions drive the plot forward. The Nightmare Tower, the election between Evon Gnashblade and Ellen Kiel – these things are memorable experiences because the community's combined efforts had an impact on the world. As you may have noticed, we've been testing tech with things like the boss rush event, that we hope to leverage later on in The Icebrood Saga to create a unique, community experience. But, learning lessons from Season 1, the bulk of this content will be built in a way that it is still playable after the Icebrood Saga comes to a close.

Nothing in that really says that player decisions will change the course of the story- they didn't in the Tower of Nightmares or boss rush, after all. Wanting it to still be playable after the story moves on would also lend itself to temporary impacts; there's probably a way it could be done with something like an election, but it'd lose a lot of its punch going forward, and that doesn't really jive with the guiding principle of incentivizing replay that Andrew Gray tries to hammer home.

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My interpretation of that bit - especially with the "the bulk of this content will be built in a way that it is still playable after the Icebrood Saga comes to a close" closing bit - is that there will be points where there is a community progressional bar to unlock additional content (most likely not main story, but open world stuff). I can imagine Drakkar's boss fight being updated not on February 11th, but instead after a bar that gets added on Feb 11th gets filled, for example.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:My interpretation of that bit - especially with the "the bulk of this content will be built in a way that it is still playable after the Icebrood Saga comes to a close" closing bit - is that there will be points where there is a community progressional bar to unlock additional content (most likely not main story, but open world stuff). I can imagine Drakkar's boss fight being updated not on February 11th, but instead after a bar that gets added on Feb 11th gets filled, for example.

perhaps a "weekly" boss that is reseted at friday like wvw wars, to avoid the fiasco of "unreapeteable" content like LS1.

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@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Wanting it to still be playable after the story moves on would also lend itself to temporary impacts; there's probably a way it could be done with something like an >election, but it'd lose a lot of its punch going forward, and that doesn't really jive with the guiding principle of incentivizing replay that Andrew Gray tries to hammer >home.

They've recently enhanced their ability to do "phasing", like Braham following you around while everyone else sees a raven. I wouldn't be surprised to see this used more as a story tool, different players seeing different versions of an area depending on where they are in the story/what their choices were.

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@Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Given how the episode ended, speaking about the Charr having to pick sides and Andrew Gray’s message about episode 3 and 4 Meta being similar to WvW. I would imagine we will be seeing a charr civil war in the Blood Legion Homelands. Possibly with Bangar being defeated, licking his wounds and eventually running to Jormag to be corrupted.

I agree they're building up to a civil war of some kind, but I have a hard time coming up with a place/motivation for it that makes sense. Bangar is already the Imperator of Blood Legion, and the rank and file don't have much reason to revolt yet, so I don't see why they would be fighting in their own lands unless the other Legions are the aggressors. Maybe he declares himself Khan-Ur and tries to rally the footsoldiers of the other Legions to join him, so the remaining Charr from the other Legions... attack? I don't know, it doesn't really gel together for me. This seems like something Bangar might do, but I don't know if the other Legions would actually
invade
Blood territory over this, rather than simply try to keep a tighter grip on their soldiers and prepare their defenses while spreading their own propaganda.I think the answer is simpler than you think. Crecia has seen what Bangar has done. She may end up revealing what he's doing to Blood Legion, announcing he's unfit to be Imperator and must be taken out of power. This would lead to infighting between those in Blood who believe that Bangar is a threat to the high legions themselves, and those who agree with him. We have our Civil War, without the other legions getting involved.

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I felt it was a bit "Rushed" to be really honest, and some points could've been worked better, but the Devs told that the episode would be intense, and things would escalate quickly. Yet, i still noticed some details, informations that the story did AND didn't threw into your face, like pieces of Bangar's dialog when he show's up and others are scattered arround the map in the form of notes/books (hunger for knowledge achievment), NPC dialogs and ETC.

Things that i have in mind:1- Laranthir isn't part of the vigil anymore. He voluntarily left the Vigil and returned to the Grove. Almorra's Dead and now we're only left with Jhavi and Warmaster Efut, that never shown up too much in the game.2- IDK where's Gorrik, Taimi haven't shown up yet and both have the secret on how to deal with Jormag AND Primordus (LWS3).3- Aurene tells us Bangar is a part of a much larger web, and killing him won't solve anything. She also says that there's a reason why Jormag wants both of us alive, but she doesn't know why yet.4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:

  • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
  • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

5- During the Meta Event on Drakkar's lair, Jormag speaks with you, telling you that Svanir wished for power, so he freely gave it to Svanir. As i said on the previous point, that Bangar wishes for power, probably he's going to be corrupted, sooner or later.6- Rox is mentioned by Braham on the prologue, though she haven't appeared yet. An important note is that she's living with the Olmakhan, which are directly conneceted to the Flame Legion.7- Ryland may not be under the influence of the Dragon, but he was obviously brainwashed by Bangar.8- Imperator Malice Swordshadow have been investigating the renegade's activity for a long time, even before the events on Bound by Blood, which implies that she knew they were up to something. NOTE: Ember Doomforge is Ash Legion, Almorra's granddaughter and is ALSO part of the Vigil.9- This is a BIG Elder Dragon problem now, so The Pact must show up sooner or later.10- Eir's bow isn't the only powerfull fire-enchanted weapon in the game: Sohothin still exists, and it's on Rytlocks possession.11- Magdaer is still out there, broken, but it was already found and recovered (Acalonian Catacombs story mode).

What i think it'll happen next:1- Next episode is going to be focused on a Charr civil war (or the start of it). The legions will enter in internal conflict, and the Charr will be divided into those who support Bangar, and those who opose him and are loyal to their legions.2- It'll start to connect loose points of the story like: "why, when and how it all started", "what is that much larger web that Aurene talked about", "who's working along with Bangar?".3- Eir's bow is going to be destroyed.4- Another important figure is gonna die.

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@"Kaizer.8261" said:

4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:

  • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
  • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

I think Bangar is making a comparison of being Jormag’s Champion, just like we are Aurene’s Champion. So, Bangar/Jormag compared to Commander/Aurene. Something a bit different then the typical Dragon Champion. It’s a very interesting evil mirror of our relationship with Aurene.

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@"Kaizer.8261" said:

1- Laranthir isn't part of the vigil anymore. He voluntarily left the Vigil and returned to the Grove. Almorra's Dead and now we're only left with Jhavi and Warmaster Efut, that never shown up too much in the game.

What part of "has submitted a request for a temporary leave of absence... we expect Laranthir will return to his post in due time" means he's not part of the Vigil anymore? Do you quit your job/school everytime you go on vacation?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Kaizer.8261" said:

4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:
  • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
  • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

I think Bangar is making a comparison of being Jormag’s Champion, just like we are Aurene’s Champion. So, Bangar/Jormag compared to Commander/Aurene. Something a bit different then the typical Dragon Champion. It’s a very interesting evil mirror of our relationship with Aurene.

Agreed. I also think it's worth considering the possibility that Bangar is so confident because he basically already is Jormag's champion.

Obviously he's being manipulated, but what I mean is that, through the whispers, Jormag may have already anointed Bangar it's "champion", and they are already working together.

Honestly I think this would make Bangar's actions make more sense. I've never understood what his plan to subjugate the dragon actually consisted of, besides blindly hoping that Eir's bow would intimidate Jormag into obeying him and brining an army to wander around the mountains for awhile.

If, on the other hand, they have already entered into an agreement, then Bangar may be running other unspecified errands for Jormag, and it would explain his otherwise unjustified confidence that he can control Jormag.

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@Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

@"Kaizer.8261" said:

4- Bangar, as soon as he kills the Whisper of Jormag, screams out loud "I am Jormag's champion. I alone can control the dragon." It implies that:
  • He doesn't know how the connection between Champion and Dragon works;
  • He's completelly mad and wishes for power above else;

I think Bangar is making a comparison of being Jormag’s Champion, just like we are Aurene’s Champion. So, Bangar/Jormag compared to Commander/Aurene. Something a bit different then the typical Dragon Champion. It’s a very interesting evil mirror of our relationship with Aurene.

Agreed. I also think it's worth considering the possibility that Bangar is so confident because he basically already
is
Jormag's champion.

Obviously he's being manipulated, but what I mean is that, through the whispers, Jormag may have already anointed Bangar it's "champion", and they are
already
working together.

Honestly I think this would make Bangar's actions make more sense. I've never understood what his plan to subjugate the dragon actually consisted of, besides blindly hoping that Eir's bow would intimidate Jormag into obeying him and brining an army to wander around the mountains for awhile.

If, on the other hand, they have already entered into an agreement, then Bangar may be running other unspecified errands for Jormag, and it would explain his otherwise unjustified confidence that he can control Jormag.

As suggested, the Icebrood trailer dialogue could be directed at Bangar, which could be the pull used to get the two to work together. I do imagine though that the finale of the season or near it at least could be that large battle on the frozen tundra, which I would imagine be the area north of Bitterfrost Frontier.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:While I didn't follow all of your points, I agree that it was a little anticlimactic and weird at the end. We keep having Jormag tell us she wants to talk...

We get pulled into some weird realm and her a few whispers from her talking about Tyria and it just gets cut off by Bangar, who shows up for the sole purpose of having propaganda to fuel the legions into following him? And Jormag's just like, "Okay, we'll talk later. buhbye."

And if the spirits were corrupted, all we had to do was have Braham talk to them? No forgotten rituals to free their minds? Just listen to them make fun of Braham for a few minutes and then have them bless him when they're done venting?

If these spirits are free now, then are the masteries invalid next map? Because they were based on the stolen power of these spirits by Jormag. Now that the spirits are free and Jormag isn't siphoning their magic, I guess we won't be seeing anymore fallen/abberant/whatever mobs moving forward?

And how are spirits this infinite font of magic that dragons can feast on? Care to go into detail about that or add some interesting sidelore? lol

It just felt like the whole episode was this Braham-centric story focused on powering him up. Then, aside from Aurene and the scrying pool, ended rather awkwardly.

Well said. It was all way too easy. Especially the gaining-favor from the spirits.

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@Tyson.5160 said:As suggested, the Icebrood trailer dialogue could be directed at Bangar, which could be the pull used to get the two to work together. I do imagine though that the finale of the season or near it at least could be that large battle on the frozen tundra, which I would imagine be the area north of Bitterfrost Frontier.It was explicitly confirmed that the tailor dialog was directed at Bangar.

Based on That_Shaman finding that there are 9 portal tome slots, and looking at what we see in the trailer, it isn't too hard to figure out how the story will likely progress.

  • Following up Bangar's kill steal at the end of episode 2, episodes 3 and 4 will likely involve a minor Charr civil conflict, and take us back to the Charr lands for a bit
  • Episodes 5 and 6 will likely take us to the Woodland Cascades(seen in the trailer). I'm not100% sure what we will be doing there. Maybe still chasing Bangar if he is alive, or possible its a mcguffin chapter where we need to find some ancient magical thing to help fight Jormag
  • Episodes 7 and 8 will be us marching up to Jormag's central territory, and killing Jormag itself in the Shiverpeaks.

This would fit with

  • what we saw in the trailer(Charr lands, Shiverpeaks, Woodland Cascades)
  • what we know from the portal tome having 9 slots
  • the devs saying this seasons masteries will focus on the spirits of the wild(there are four major spirits, each map is a two parter, leaving us with 4 maps, one for eachspirit)
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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:As suggested, the Icebrood trailer dialogue could be directed at Bangar, which could be the pull used to get the two to work together. I do imagine though that the finale of the season or near it at least could be that large battle on the frozen tundra, which I would imagine be the area north of Bitterfrost Frontier.It was explicitly confirmed that the tailor dialog was directed at Bangar.

Based on That_Shaman finding that there are 9 portal tome slots, and looking at what we see in the trailer, it isn't too hard to figure out how the story will likely progress.
  • Following up Bangar's kill steal at the end of episode 2, episodes 3 and 4 will likely involve a minor Charr civil conflict, and take us back to the Charr lands for a bit
  • Episodes 5 and 6 will likely take us to the Woodland Cascades(seen in the trailer). I'm not100% sure what we will be doing there. Maybe still chasing Bangar if he is alive, or possible its a mcguffin chapter where we need to find some ancient magical thing to help fight Jormag
  • Episodes 7 and 8 will be us marching up to Jormag's central territory, and killing Jormag itself in the Shiverpeaks.

This would fit with
  • what we saw in the trailer(Charr lands, Shiverpeaks, Woodland Cascades)
  • what we know from the portal tome having 9 slots
  • the devs saying this seasons masteries will focus on the spirits of the wild(there are four major spirits, each map is a two parter, leaving us with 4 maps, one for eachspirit)

The story could also be a switch of 7 and 8 and 5 and 6 potentially, with maybe Jormag being taken out by the DSD. With the last couple episodes possibly as lead up to the next story.

The way we are carving through the Far Shiverpeaks and Blood Legion Homelands, I really don’t see Jormag lasting the saga if the Saga is 9 episodes, that punches us to 2021 easily.

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@Tyson.5160 said:The story could also be a switch of 7 and 8 and 5 and 6 potentially, with maybe Jormag being taken out by the DSD. With the last couple episodes possibly as lead up to the next story.

The way we are carving through the Far Shiverpeaks and Blood Legion Homelands, I really don’t see Jormag lasting the saga if the Saga is 9 episodes, that punches us to 2021 easily.How would the DSD, which is way south of Tyira, kill Jormag, who is the far north in the mountains? Like, their two areas of control are probably the furthest apart possible.

As for length. LWS4, which was Kralkatorik's narrative, began in November 2017, and ended May 2019, lasting all of like 18 months. And the way the Icebrood Saga episodes have come out, which is about every 2 months, that means the 9 release Icebrood Saga will last around 18 months. So it would be comparable. And much like LWS4 had Joko as a minor enemy for the first part, Icebrood Saga has Bangar.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The story could also be a switch of 7 and 8 and 5 and 6 potentially, with maybe Jormag being taken out by the DSD. With the last couple episodes possibly as lead up to the next story.

The way we are carving through the Far Shiverpeaks and Blood Legion Homelands, I really don’t see Jormag lasting the saga if the Saga is 9 episodes, that punches us to 2021 easily.How would the DSD, which is way south of Tyira, kill Jormag, who is the far north in the mountains? Like, their two areas of control are probably the furthest apart possible.

Swim up to the Janthir Isles and head east

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