Expansion level content?

[Neural.1824]

"Expansion level content" is nothing more than "business as usual" marketing gimmickry.

There is no point of reference for what is defined as an "expansion". A GW2 expansion? An expansion by the standard of a given subset of MMO's? An expansion on the level of the gaming industry in general?The word "expansion" is most often associated in games with a game update that has large amounts of new content (i.e. HoT, PoF)."Level" is another part of the problem here. When coupled with "expansion", it leaves it completely open to whether or not "expansion level" means the quantity of content and/or the quality of the content.They could have internal standards of production that are higher in some aspect for content that was put into HoT/PoF than for older Living World content. If content is judged as "expansion level" in that regard, because it passed certain internal QC checks, they could do something as simple as put in a new chair and call it "expansion level content" and claim they delivered.

[Fueki.4753]

@"LowestTruth.2635" said:

2. the fact they've acknowledged content needs to be designed for replayability and not just one-offs makes me hope they will incorporate more past masteries into new content.There is just the issue with what Arenanet sees as replayablity.It's certainly possible that they see those "Do X event 20 times" achievements as the pinnacle of their replayability.At this point, every non-detailed statement of theirs has to be taken with not only grains or pinches, but with entire spoonfuls of salt.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Zok.4956 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

Wait ... WHY is it not the content of season 3 or 4 allowed 'in'? You're saying what Anet defines but I haven't seen anywhere Anet excluded that kind of content from expansions.

It has nothing to do with what is allowed and what not, or if content of a season is not also allowed in an expansion. I was just stating the obvious.

HoT and PoF are expansions. Season 3 and Season 4 are not expansions, they are seasons (before/after expansions).

So, if you want to look at what "expansion level" could mean, look at all the content/things that Anet in the past already included in an expansion.

If Anet wants to include "expansion level" content and also "season level" content in the Saga (Season 5), that would be fine by me, but that was not the original question.

Hold on here. The question is WHAT is expansion level content and your answer is that Anet defined it as what was in expansions and NOT what was in seasonal content. I'm asking you how you come to that conclusion when Anet has never said what was in seasonal content can't be in expansions.

The content that is included in the two existing expansions equals to "expansion level". If it would not be "expansion level", it would not be included already in expansions.

If you count as expansion-level only what was included in the two expansions exclusively then we got the following:Guild Hall, New crafting discipline, Elite Specs

That's pretty much what we got in the two expansions but not in the Living World Seasons. A new mastery appears on -almost- every episode, we got new mounts through the Living World, we got Raids, we got Fractals, we got Bounties, we got everything else from the Seasons except those 3 above. I'm not quite sure if Guild Halls are such an important feature and a new crafting discipline isn't exactly needed going forward.

Meaning the one and only important thing that we got exclusively through expansions is elite specs. So by "expansion" level you mean "elite specs". I guess for many elite specs is what they expect in an expansion and for good reason, but do elite specs alone make "expansion-level" content?

[Fueki.4753]

@maddoctor.2738 said:we got Raids, we got Fractals, we got Bounties

However, one can argue that the introductions of raids and bounties to the game count as expansion level content, as they first appeared in expansion packs.Going by that argument, the introduction of Strike Missions to the game would be equal to expansion-level content.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:we got Raids, we got Fractals, we got Bounties

However, one can argue that the

introductions

of raids and bounties to the game count as expansion level content, as they first appeared in expansion packs.Going by that argument, the

introduction

of Strike Missions to the game would be equal to expansion-level content.

If we want to talk about introductions then elite specs aren't expansion content either. The Specialization patch came before Heart of Thorns and we got new healing skills and new Grandmaster traits through the Living World (Season 1) before elite specs, meaning new skills and traits aren't expansion level content either. And let's not forget all the balance patches that changed how we play. One can stretch their arguments through any side to prove that we are or aren't getting expansion level content, because those 3 words mean different things to different players.

The truth of the matter is what Arenanet believes, and they said that both cooking to 500 and build templates are expansion level content, that's the only thing we can accurately discuss at this point in time. Are those two enough "expansion level content" for the first 3 episodes of the latest Season? Anything else is just speculation and personal opinion. In my opinion they are expansion level content, and at the same time content that would've been better if it was part of an expansion, as we all know you can buy 2-3 expansions for the same price as maximizing your characters with the build templates, or way more based on how many characters you have.

[rrusse.7058]

So Andrew Gray recently came out with an update on what they have planned for Episodes 3 and 4. Saying that they will be akin to WvW map meets PvE. What that means exactly, I'm not sure but I will admit I am interested.

• It's new and it could provide the playerbase with a new way to appreciate PvE.
• It's an opportunity to get people into WvW. "Hey this map is fun, why don't I check out real WvW?"
• Chance take out two birds with one stone for Arenanet. Apply some of the work done for this episode for real WvW.

Maybe I am getting too excited over nothing as we have yet to actually see anything yet, what do other people think about this? Are you intrigued or is this just more PR talk to silence the naysayers?

[I Rubra Caelum I.1530]

LWS mostly gets us just one map, some masteries (useful or not) and one or more armor / weapons skins which are HEAVILY related to grinding or some super crazy RNG (see the raven ceremonial garb).Expansions so far got us a lot of maps, mounts, gliding, new elites and probably more than I can think of right now.So, no, LWS isn't expansion content.But then again, maybe in the long run, after more LW stories, we will get more maps and stuff that has a very big impact on the game, as mounts and gliding were when they got released. From this point of view, LW stories brings us same content as an expansion, but it's delivered slower.

[coso.9173]

I think if e specs are too much work for what they have now. They could make it so existing specs could have some changes, like learning new support skills or elite skills or 6-9 skills. Or even change some mechanic (f1, etc)It's not a whole e spec but addition to existing ones at the end.

[Fueki.4753]

@"rrusse.7058" said:So Andrew Gray recently came out with an update on what they have planned for Episodes 3 and 4.All that was stated with certainty i that one specific dev is supposed to get shifted into development of a new fractal and that Episode 3 and 4 will share a map again.Everything else, from how I read that, is mostly vague wording devoid of content.

Saying that they will be akin to WvW map meets PvE. What that means exactly, I'm not sure but I will admit I am interested.I suspect it'll be similar to Silverwastes, where you always fight for keeps against the Mordrem.

• It's new and it could provide the playerbase with a new way to appreciate PvE.It's probably not new. It's most likely a variant of what the Silverwastes do.

• It's an opportunity to get people into WvW. "Hey this map is fun, why don't I check out real WvW?"When i think about WvW, aside from dailies, it's blobs of players competing each other first, and holding the objectives is just a means to do so.I can't imagine people who like to compete with others to be thrilled about this.

Maybe I am getting too excited over nothing as we have yet to actually see anything yet,You're probably just too excited over the rare occasion of Arenanet posting on the forums.

Are you intrigued or is this just more PR talk to silence the naysayers?As long as no details are discussed, it's nothing but hollow PR talk beating around every bush in the game to keep hopeful players hope.

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Super Hayes.6890" said:I voted yes simply because there is not an option for "I don't knoe yet." We have a prolugue and two episodes and no way of knowing how many episodes will make up a saga. There is, in fact, not enough information to answer this question yet.Saying that "there's not enough information to answer that question yet" is basically the same as admitting that so far this Saga did not, in fact, supplied any expansion level content. Because if it did supply any, then we would have had enough information to answer OP's question.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were refering to the product that we have recieved a fraction of. If the remaining releases are exactly like the first three you will be right. As they are currently unknown you cannot reach an accurate conclusion. As far as what I admit or don't admit you really are out of line making any statement for me. Disagree if you will but my opinion is optimistic.

[Kurrilino.2706]

@otto.5684 said:It is not expansion level content. But Anet did not promise expansion level content anyway. It is the same as last LW.

???????

ANet: The new Saga will have epansion level content

You: Anet didn't promise expansion level content

??????

[Dami.5046]

For one, not having another spec shouldn't be the bench mark if something is expansion level. Gah I just can't think of the balance issues a new spec would make .. We had a mount last season and think of the shit that got. Funny that my idea of an expansion is Cantha and so many dis that, so many say they don't want to go to places we have been before and yet here we are, going to GW;EN areas and no one bats an eye.This game needs excitement. Walking round a map with a few events and mobs isn't exciting. We need excitement.If I can't have my beloved Cantha then a 'boxed' expansion should be a total new area, one GW has never been to. something exciting. something unexpected.Oh and one more thing, anet really do need to stop is the sudden 'bowing' down to certain groups. I mean moaning about an event skin and getting it changed when there are so many more issues is laughable.But on a plus side the music this episode is stunning so that's at least on point.

[otto.5684]

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:It is not expansion level content. But Anet did not promise expansion level content anyway. It is the same as last LW.

???????

ANet: The new Saga will have epansion level content

You: Anet didn't promise expansion level content

??????

Not defending Anet. They made a big deal out of the saga, while it is nothing more than another LW (and not doing too good comparatively so far). They did not explicitly say it is expansion level content. They implicitly kinda marketed it that way. Many people jumped on the hype train and got burned.

I 100% agree that neither of the 2 new maps or expansion level maps (and honestly, neither were PoF maps). And without new skills/weapons/elites, it surely is not an expansion.

I guess the only saving grace is that it is free (assuming you own PoF). So, you can vote with your money and not buy gems. I have not paid to Anet a dime since PoF. And from how things going, I probably never will.

[Gehenna.3625]

I don't buy into this "expansion-level content" bit. The whole point of an expansion is that it adds a lot of content in one-go for people to dive into and that refreshes the game as a whole.

By releasing content in bits, it automatically doesn't give you a big chunk of content to dive into. So that's one. But more importantly, at least for me, there is no content coming out that really adds a massive change to how the game plays and thereby refreshing it. It's just more of the same. HoT introduced masteries but in particular gliding that really was a game changer. Also the maps, though I hated them at first, were much more intricate and that was something different also. I'm glad they only did it there but it did add something new, different to the game. And PoF had mounts which also changed things significantly in the open world in particular. And of course there was the new class and new elite specializations although the specializations are very hit and miss and could've been done a lot better.

We got new masteries but the latest ones are mostly about getting better rewards with chests on the map and some buff systems that adds even more buffs to the list. In short, it shows an entire lack of imagination...more of the same as I said.

I know there are a bunch of skill updates but it's still just adapting what is. There's no major overhaul that changes the combat system so it feels different overall. That's the sort of thing that I expect with expansions. It's not even so much about how much content is in there, though that is a nice part of it but the game has to feel new again. That's what makes expansions exciting and gives people a fresh look at the game and motivates to play it longer or again.

And that's what I miss with LS and now Saga content. Don't get me wrong, I'm always happy to get a snow map cause I love snow. So hey, that box is ticked for me. But I have to spend a lot of time in the same map doing the exact same things over and over again to get the masteries completed. That's just grinding for the sake of grinding.

I guess they really are out of ideas...

[Astralporing.1957]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:I voted yes simply because there is not an option for "I don't knoe yet." We have a prolugue and two episodes and no way of knowing how many episodes will make up a saga. There is, in fact, not enough information to answer this question yet.Saying that "there's not enough information to answer that question yet" is basically the same as admitting that so far this Saga did not, in fact, supplied any expansion level content. Because if it did supply any, then we would have had enough information to answer OP's question.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were refering to the product that we have recieved a fraction of. If the remaining releases are exactly like the first three you will be right. As they are currently unknown you cannot reach an accurate conclusion. As far as what I admit or don't admit you really are out of line making any statement for me. Disagree if you will but my opinion is optimistic.You are optimistic, because you base your opinion on things you hope they'll do - and you expect they will be different than what happened so far. Me, I prefer to base it on things they have actually done, and i stopped hoping on them miraculously improving in the future. And thus, my take on it is, that

so far

the Saga didn't give us anything like a proper expansion-level content, and i see nothing that might suggest that's going to change.

[Kurrilino.2706]

@otto.5684 said:

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:It is not expansion level content. But Anet did not promise expansion level content anyway. It is the same as last LW.

???????

ANet: The new Saga will have epansion level content

You: Anet didn't promise expansion level content

??????

Not defending Anet. They made a big deal out of the saga, while it is nothing more than another LW (and not doing too good comparatively so far). They did not explicitly say it is expansion level content. They implicitly kinda marketed it that way. Many people jumped on the hype train and got burned.

I 100% agree that neither of the 2 new maps or expansion level maps (and honestly, neither were PoF maps). And without new skills/weapons/elites, it surely is not an expansion.

I guess the only saving grace is that it is free (assuming you own PoF). So, you can vote with your money and not buy gems. I have not paid to Anet a dime since PoF. And from how things going, I probably never will.

Actually the Bossman anounced it exactly as Expansion like content at the presentation.Sure, it's not written down but enough people heard and saw it. Including me

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:It is not expansion level content. But Anet did not promise expansion level content anyway. It is the same as last LW.

???????

ANet: The new Saga will have epansion level content

You: Anet didn't promise expansion level content

??????

Not defending Anet. They made a big deal out of the saga, while it is nothing more than another LW (and not doing too good comparatively so far). They did not explicitly say it is expansion level content. They implicitly kinda marketed it that way. Many people jumped on the hype train and got burned.

I 100% agree that neither of the 2 new maps or expansion level maps (and honestly, neither were PoF maps). And without new skills/weapons/elites, it surely is not an expansion.

I guess the only saving grace is that it is free (assuming you own PoF). So, you can vote with your money and not buy gems. I have not paid to Anet a dime since PoF. And from how things going, I probably never will.

Actually the Bossman anounced it exactly as Expansion like content at the presentation.Sure, it's not written down but enough people heard and saw it. Including me

Actually, it is written down: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Icebrood_Saga_announcementI, personally, can not find any quote about 'expansion-like content' in that announcement. I think it must be somewhere else? Perhaps, the forums?

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:I voted yes simply because there is not an option for "I don't knoe yet." We have a prolugue and two episodes and no way of knowing how many episodes will make up a saga. There is, in fact, not enough information to answer this question yet.Saying that "there's not enough information to answer that question yet" is basically the same as admitting that so far this Saga did not, in fact, supplied any expansion level content. Because if it did supply any, then we would have had enough information to answer OP's question.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were refering to the product that we have recieved a fraction of. If the remaining releases are exactly like the first three you will be right. As they are currently unknown you cannot reach an accurate conclusion. As far as what I admit or don't admit you really are out of line making any statement for me. Disagree if you will but my opinion is optimistic.You are optimistic, because you base your opinion on things you hope they'll do - and you expect they will be different than what happened so far. Me, I prefer to base it on things they have actually done, and i stopped hoping on them miraculously improving in the future. And thus, my take on it is, that

so far

the Saga didn't give us anything like a proper expansion-level content, and i see nothing that might suggest that's going to change.

Fair enough. I hope you're wrong. The moment I stop hoping is the moment I stop playing and I still enjoy playing atm.

[otto.5684]

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:It is not expansion level content. But Anet did not promise expansion level content anyway. It is the same as last LW.

???????

ANet: The new Saga will have epansion level content

You: Anet didn't promise expansion level content

??????

Not defending Anet. They made a big deal out of the saga, while it is nothing more than another LW (and not doing too good comparatively so far). They did not explicitly say it is expansion level content. They implicitly kinda marketed it that way. Many people jumped on the hype train and got burned.

I 100% agree that neither of the 2 new maps or expansion level maps (and honestly, neither were PoF maps). And without new skills/weapons/elites, it surely is not an expansion.

I guess the only saving grace is that it is free (assuming you own PoF). So, you can vote with your money and not buy gems. I have not paid to Anet a dime since PoF. And from how things going, I probably never will.

Actually the Bossman anounced it exactly as Expansion like content at the presentation.Sure, it's not written down but enough people heard and saw it. Including me

I might have missed then. In any case it is not. And splitting one map and one episode over 2 releases than calling it more frequent content surely indicates solid future for this game ?

[hatsamu.4327]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kurrilino.2706 said:

@otto.5684 said:It is not expansion level content. But Anet did not promise expansion level content anyway. It is the same as last LW.

???????

ANet: The new Saga will have epansion level content

You: Anet didn't promise expansion level content

??????

Not defending Anet. They made a big deal out of the saga, while it is nothing more than another LW (and not doing too good comparatively so far). They did not explicitly say it is expansion level content. They implicitly kinda marketed it that way. Many people jumped on the hype train and got burned.

I 100% agree that neither of the 2 new maps or expansion level maps (and honestly, neither were PoF maps). And without new skills/weapons/elites, it surely is not an expansion.

I guess the only saving grace is that it is free (assuming you own PoF). So, you can vote with your money and not buy gems. I have not paid to Anet a dime since PoF. And from how things going, I probably never will.

Actually the Bossman anounced it exactly as Expansion like content at the presentation.Sure, it's not written down but enough people heard and saw it. Including me

Actually, it

is

written down:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Icebrood_Saga_announcement

I, personally, can not find any quote about 'expansion-like content' in that announcement. I think it must be somewhere else? Perhaps, the forums?

The earliest mention of "expansion level" is from a post in a forum thread by Mike Z from Jan 2019, I think? [HERE] The video he mentions (

, from Aug 2018) talks about going fron LS4 into LS5 and the content/features they were adding, but the exact phrase wasn't added until that post.

The phrase was apparently known to the press as well, mentioned in the PCGamesN interview [HERE] with Mike Z from PAX West 2019 as the "early messaging" of "expansion-tier features." Not sure if this was referencing the same forum post + community discussion or some other messaging the press received. In any case, Mike Z acknowledges the phrase by listing the features he considered to be expansion level: cooking 500 and build templates.

[Valandil.6453]

Nah, not expansion level content, because if it were, we'd be heading into Cantha right now.

And don't say it's not gonna happen, when you know as well as I that it's full-well a distinct possibility. There's been more people crying out for it than anything since before these forums got a rework, even since the game's inception.

Also, you shouldn't listen to the words of Anet about Cantha either - years ago they said they weren't going to be introducing either raids or mounts. Look where we are now. Now if you don't mind, I have more AFK'ing to do in CANTHA (at Shing Jea Monastery), as the Celestial Rat runs around. :p

canthaforever

[Acheron.4731]

@"rrusse.7058" said:So Andrew Gray recently came out with an update on what they have planned for Episodes 3 and 4. Saying that they will be akin to WvW map meets PvE. What that means exactly, I'm not sure but I will admit I am interested.

• It's new and it could provide the playerbase with a new way to appreciate PvE.
• It's an opportunity to get people into WvW. "Hey this map is fun, why don't I check out real WvW?"
• Chance take out two birds with one stone for Arenanet. Apply some of the work done for this episode for real WvW.

Maybe I am getting too excited over nothing as we have yet to actually see anything yet, what do other people think about this? Are you intrigued or is this just more PR talk to silence the naysayers?

you better hope wvw communication and productivity doesn't meet anything in pve or this game is doomed, lol

[thepenmonster.3621]

@"maddoctor.2738" said

do elite specs alone make "expansion-level" content?

The mistake in asking this is that the people complaining are simply looking for excuses to complain. They'd be kvetching about any new elites because that what they did the last two times.

As the old meme goes, "I don't want an answer. I want to be angry."

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Valandil Dragonhart.2371 said:Nah, not expansion level content, because if it were, we'd be heading into Cantha right now.

And don't say it's not gonna happen, when you know as well as I that it's full-well a distinct possibility. There's been more people crying out for it than anything since before these forums got a rework, even since the game's inception.

Also, you shouldn't listen to the words of Anet about Cantha either - years ago they said they weren't going to be introducing either raids or mounts. Look where we are now. Now if you don't mind, I have more AFK'ing to do in CANTHA (at Shing Jea Monastery), as the Celestial Rat runs around. :p

canthaforever

Actually, the Devs never said there would not be Mounts, only that there would not be Mounts at launch.

The Devs also talked about Raid pre-launch.

And, to be fair, the Devs have never said there won't be Cantha. Only one Dev talked about a possible reason that the Canthan District in Divinity's Reach was removed.

[Valandil.6453]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@"Valandil Dragonhart.2371" said:Nah, not expansion level content, because if it were, we'd be heading into Cantha right now.

And don't say it's not gonna happen, when you know as well as I that it's full-well a distinct possibility. There's been more people crying out for it than anything since before these forums got a rework, even since the game's inception.

Also, you shouldn't listen to the words of Anet about Cantha either - years ago they said they weren't going to be introducing either raids or mounts. Look where we are now. Now if you don't mind, I have more AFK'ing to do in CANTHA (at Shing Jea Monastery), as the Celestial Rat runs around. :p

canthaforever

Actually, the Devs never said there would not be Mounts, only that there would not be Mounts at launch.

The Devs also talked about Raid pre-launch.

And, to be fair, the Devs have never said there won't be Cantha. Only one Dev talked about a

possible

reason that the Canthan District in Divinity's Reach was removed.

Yeah actually they did, that's precisely why I mentioned the old forums, and why there's no trace of them now. Convenient.

Both in the case of mounts and raids. I only remember because I weighed in on both arguments myself. CJ specifically said there'd be no raids added to the game as "Fractals were enough". Several devs also got in on the discussion about mounts, and how they would not be integrated into the game. There was no caveat or exemption, it was a flat "NO".

I'll argue this one tooth and nail, because I have a long memory about these things. Cantha is a taboo topic; they like to pretend it never existed because of the Asian cultural anomalies that happened in GW1 and how they were placed on the back foot.