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Stacking Sigils


lodjur.1284

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A massive balance patch seems like the perfect time to remove them. I will list why I think so below.

  1. The opportunity cost is very low, 1 sigil on your "worse" weapon, the opportunity cost is actually 0 on ele/engi
  2. They're BiS by a fairly large margin, pretty much everyone uses them (with supports sometimes being the exception), myself included.
  3. They're fairly bland, just free 250 pwr/condi dmg/whatever, as opposed to more interesting ones like energy, cleansing, torment etc
  4. They're annoying to play with, having to remember to swap before stuff dies, losing stacks when you swap map etc, especially annoying on ele/engi, removing them would be a massive QoL improvement
  5. They essentially limit sigil slots from 4>3 by being so strong.
  6. They're inconsistent with the rest of the sigils, they're the only ones that work on the bar they're not slotted on. Changing this would essentially fix all my gripes with them as they'd no longer be BiS

I think removing these would give some more variety with regards to sigils and remove a minor annoyance.

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@Justine.6351 said:

@Justine.6351 said:If you don't want to run them then dont? I don't.

Then you're most likely making a suboptimal decision, I couldn't live with myself doing that

or you are, thinking +250 stats is better than stuff like cleansing, energy, force, hydromancy, absorption and so on.

On most builds giving up 1 slot, on what is your least used bar to get +250 stats on both bar is a very very good trade, there's a few exception but for the vast majority of builds (outside of stuff like dueling/gvg/anything organized ofc) it's really an easy choice, now you could be playing one of the very few builds it's not optimal on, I have no idea.

Also bloodlust is leagues above force.

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Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have is a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

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@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon or better yet a sigil from a weapon you can't even swap to /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@"Clownmug.8357" said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

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I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

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@Justine.6351 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

But this is another example of where stacking sigils are not the best choice.

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@Clownmug.8357 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

I mean, my biggest mistake is probably picking a class that isn't that strong atm, but beyond that I don't actually think I have anything suboptimal in my current build, at least not that is suboptimal in the "strictly better/worse" sense.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

I like doing math on things because it's not subject to opinions or preferences. Having strictly better options generally aren't good for diversity, for most builds there's essentially only 3 sigil slots because of the stacking one.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

Yes and warrior is basically the only exception to the stacking sigil situation because weapon swap sigils are extremely strong when you have 5 sec swap CD. They are the only class that has that tho, my warrior builds are essentially the only ones where I don't run stacking sigils (usually). I even mention it in a previous post.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

Not even the same game, but traditionally in dnd style games, Wizards are way more op once you teach higher levels than a fighter could ever be, but this is hardly the place for such a discussion.

But this is another example of where stacking sigils are not the best choice.

Yet replacing force would most likely have been a better decision.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

I mean, my biggest mistake is probably picking a class that isn't that strong atm, but beyond that I don't actually think I have anything suboptimal in my current build, at least not that is suboptimal in the "strictly better/worse" sense.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

I like doing math on things because it's not subject to opinions or preferences. Having strictly better options generally aren't good for diversity, for most builds there's essentially only 3 sigil slots because of the stacking one.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

Yes and warrior is basically the only exception to the stacking sigil situation because weapon swap sigils are extremely strong when you have 5 sec swap CD. They are the only class that has that tho, my warrior builds are essentially the only ones where I don't run stacking sigils (usually). I even mention it in a previous post.

Except that the swap sigils have a 9s ICD ><. Warrior benefits no more from them than anyone else.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

Not even the same game, but traditionally in dnd style games, Wizards are way more op once you teach higher levels than a fighter could ever be, but this is hardly the place for such a discussion.

I think you missed his dice and pen comment. Schrodinger's Wizard is OP, but in practice they are limited but what the memorized for the day. Fighter however always has the means to do its job. Particularly in Pathfinder. Hence the strong on paper versus practice statement.

But this is another example of where stacking sigils are not the best choice.

Yet replacing force would most likely have been a better decision.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

I mean, my biggest mistake is probably picking a class that isn't that strong atm, but beyond that I don't actually think I have anything suboptimal in my current build, at least not that is suboptimal in the "strictly better/worse" sense.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

I like doing math on things because it's not subject to opinions or preferences. Having strictly better options generally aren't good for diversity, for most builds there's essentially only 3 sigil slots because of the stacking one.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

Yes and warrior is basically the only exception to the stacking sigil situation because weapon swap sigils are extremely strong when you have 5 sec swap CD. They are the only class that has that tho, my warrior builds are essentially the only ones where I don't run stacking sigils (usually). I even mention it in a previous post.

Except that the swap sigils have a 9s ICD ><. Warrior benefits no more from them than anyone else.

Meaning that I can have might on one bar on warrior and manage to trigger it every 10 sec, instead of needing it on 2 bars to proc it on CD. So I can run 4 swapping sigils (that I can proc on CD) instead of 2 (or 4 I can only proc every 20 sec, or some combination of the 2).

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

Not even the same game, but traditionally in dnd style games, Wizards are way more op once you teach higher levels than a fighter could ever be, but this is hardly the place for such a discussion.

I think you missed his dice and pen comment. Schrodinger's Wizard is OP, but in practice they are limited but what the memorized for the day. Fighter however always has the means to do its job. Particularly in Pathfinder. Hence the strong on paper versus practice statement.

This is the last I am entertaining the pathfinder analogy. (not I've only played pathfinder 1, not 2 so if anything is different there I wouldn't know)

Comparing a wizard to fighter in a traditional dnd style ruleset will basically always come down to

First few levelsFighter is tanky and hits hardWizard is squishy, does low dmg and has a few very weak spell slots

They have about similar tools outside of just doing dmg

Higher levelsFighter can hit a bit harder and a bit more times/turnWizard can fly, mind control, stun entire encounters and has a ridiculous amount of spell slots, there's a reason a ton of spells are categorized as save-or-lose

Outside of combat, there's very few things the wizard can't do, the fighter is essentially still just an extremely good athlete.

The wizard's utility outside of combat is too big to really describe here.

In addition to this, generally the fighter is rather the character that looks op on paper cause you get big dmg/turn but it has no utility, making it a very strange analogy.

Back to the issue at hand

Stacking sigils are very strong both on paper as they give a high dmg boost (or other kinda boost less commonly) as well as in practice because their opportunity cost is so low, given that you can slot them on the less commonly used weapon.

But this is another example of where stacking sigils are not the best choice.

Yet replacing force would most likely have been a better decision.
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@lodjur.1284 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

I mean, my biggest mistake is probably picking a class that isn't that strong atm, but beyond that I don't actually think I have anything suboptimal in my current build, at least not that is suboptimal in the "strictly better/worse" sense.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

I like doing math on things because it's not subject to opinions or preferences. Having strictly better options generally aren't good for diversity, for most builds there's essentially only 3 sigil slots because of the stacking one.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

Yes and warrior is basically the only exception to the stacking sigil situation because weapon swap sigils are extremely strong when you have 5 sec swap CD. They are the only class that has that tho, my warrior builds are essentially the only ones where I don't run stacking sigils (usually). I even mention it in a previous post.

Except that the swap sigils have a 9s ICD ><. Warrior benefits no more from them than anyone else.

Meaning that I can have might on one bar on warrior and manage to trigger it every 10 sec, instead of needing it on 2 bars to proc it on CD. So I can run 4 swapping sigils (that I can proc on CD) instead of 2 (or 4 I can only proc every 20 sec, or some combination of the 2).

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

Not even the same game, but traditionally in dnd style games, Wizards are way more op once you teach higher levels than a fighter could ever be, but this is hardly the place for such a discussion.

I think you missed his dice and pen comment. Schrodinger's Wizard is OP, but in practice they are limited but what the memorized for the day. Fighter however always has the means to do its job. Particularly in Pathfinder. Hence the strong on paper versus practice statement.

This is the last I am entertaining the pathfinder analogy. (not I've only played pathfinder 1, not 2 so if anything is different there I wouldn't know)

Comparing a wizard to fighter in a traditional dnd style ruleset will basically always come down to

First few levelsFighter is tanky and hits hardWizard is squishy, does low dmg and has a few very weak spell slots

They have about similar tools outside of just doing dmg

Higher levelsFighter can hit a bit harder and a bit more times/turn
> Wizard can fly, mind control, stun entire encounters and has a ridiculous amount of spell slots, there's a reason a ton of spells are categorized as save-or-lose

This right here is Schrodinger's wizard. Nominally the y can do everything, but in reality only what they took for the day (Fighter can fly now btw without a wizard's help, and get bane on demand)

Outside of combat, there's very few things the wizard can't do, the fighter is essentially still just an extremely good athlete.

The wizard's utility outside of combat is too big to really describe here.

In addition to this, generally the fighter is rather the character that looks op on paper cause you get big dmg/turn but it has no utility, making it a very strange analogy.

Back to the issue at hand

Stacking sigils are very strong both on paper as they give a high dmg boost (or other kinda boost less commonly) as well as in practice because their opportunity cost is so low, given that you can slot them on the less commonly used weapon.

The strong in practice is relative to the rest of the build which is what has been raised. If you spec into a single condi for damage (Burn guard for example). Then have a condi on crit sigil and a sigil of smoldering on each set is best since the cover condi's keep the burn ticking and the smoldering keeps them ticking for longer. If you need Might (MMR+MM or Blighter's Boon for instance) then Sigils of Battle and Strength become better than a stacking sigil.

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@lodjur.1284 said:Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

According to whom? +250 power is greater than Sigil of Force, correct, until you get downed..or go under water...or change maps..or..or..or.

Additionally, in order to gain bloodlust stacks I would have to swap to my staff for that purpose alone, and not because I need to swap to staff for what staff does best.

You're swapping to staff because you are worrying about getting your bloodlust stacks up, while I'm camping my hammer to spike more players into downed state. As a commander I know which of those two playstyles I would want in my squad.

Currently my staff currently runs Sigil of Cleansing + Sigil of Hydromancy. Why the latter? Because out side of defense/cleansing, my staff is used for 3 main purposes:

1) fighting 1v1 with someone in my grill2) breaking CC on lords3) AoE cleaving downs / revives

At no point would I swap to Staff for any other reason, and in those circumstances, Hydromancy will out perform Bloodlust every single time.

You will definitely out perform me on a Golem in the special forces training area, but seeing as that isn't where I play WvW, I question the accurateness of your assertion.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

I mean, my biggest mistake is probably picking a class that isn't that strong atm, but beyond that I don't actually think I have anything suboptimal in my current build, at least not that is suboptimal in the "strictly better/worse" sense.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

I like doing math on things because it's not subject to opinions or preferences. Having strictly better options generally aren't good for diversity, for most builds there's essentially only 3 sigil slots because of the stacking one.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

Yes and warrior is basically the only exception to the stacking sigil situation because weapon swap sigils are extremely strong when you have 5 sec swap CD. They are the only class that has that tho, my warrior builds are essentially the only ones where I don't run stacking sigils (usually). I even mention it in a previous post.

Except that the swap sigils have a 9s ICD ><. Warrior benefits no more from them than anyone else.

Meaning that I can have might on one bar on warrior and manage to trigger it every 10 sec, instead of needing it on 2 bars to proc it on CD. So I can run 4 swapping sigils (that I can proc on CD) instead of 2 (or 4 I can only proc every 20 sec, or some combination of the 2).

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

Not even the same game, but traditionally in dnd style games, Wizards are way more op once you teach higher levels than a fighter could ever be, but this is hardly the place for such a discussion.

I think you missed his dice and pen comment. Schrodinger's Wizard is OP, but in practice they are limited but what the memorized for the day. Fighter however always has the means to do its job. Particularly in Pathfinder. Hence the strong on paper versus practice statement.

This is the last I am entertaining the pathfinder analogy. (not I've only played pathfinder 1, not 2 so if anything is different there I wouldn't know)

Comparing a wizard to fighter in a traditional dnd style ruleset will basically always come down to

First few levelsFighter is tanky and hits hardWizard is squishy, does low dmg and has a few very weak spell slots

They have about similar tools outside of just doing dmg

Higher levelsFighter can hit a bit harder and a bit more times/turn
> Wizard can fly, mind control, stun entire encounters and has a ridiculous amount of spell slots, there's a reason a ton of spells are categorized as save-or-lose

This right here is Schrodinger's wizard. Nominally the y can do everything, but in reality only what they took for the day (Fighter can fly now btw without a wizard's help, and get bane on demand)

Wizard has an absurd amount of slots at higher levels.

Interesting I did not know that was added, what book?

Outside of combat, there's very few things the wizard can't do, the fighter is essentially still just an extremely good athlete.

The wizard's utility outside of combat is too big to really describe here.

In addition to this, generally the fighter is rather the character that looks op on paper cause you get big dmg/turn but it has no utility, making it a very strange analogy.

Back to the issue at hand

Stacking sigils are very strong both on paper as they give a high dmg boost (or other kinda boost less commonly) as well as in practice because their opportunity cost is so low, given that you can slot them on the less commonly used weapon.

The strong in practice is relative to the rest of the build which is what has been raised. If you spec into a single condi for damage (Burn guard for example). Then have a condi on crit sigil and a sigil of smoldering on each set is best since the cover condi's keep the burn ticking and the smoldering keeps them ticking for longer. If you need Might (MMR+MM or Blighter's Boon for instance) then Sigils of Battle and Strength become better than a stacking sigil.

Well smoldering is a weak sigil actually that for a wide variety of reasons poorly compare to corruption. It's essentially 300 expertise that only works for 1 condi and takes 2 slots. Condition damage is generally a stronger stat, due to clears. 2 sigil slots is a much bigger opportunity cost.

Reaper with BB when it was a thing generally ran a bloodlust sigil, in addition to 2 strength sigils.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

According to whom? +250 power is greater than Sigil of Force, correct, until you get downed..or go under water...or change maps..or..or..or.

So have it on a underwater weapon so you don't lose stacks, it's ideal there as well...

If you get downed just stack it up again. Not like it's hard, just annoying, which is why I want it removed, because it's almost always ideal, but always a pain.

Additionally, in order to gain bloodlust stacks I would have to swap to my staff for that purpose alone, and not because I need to swap to staff for what staff does best.

So do it in fights you already won/guards?Or just get the stacks when you swap to cleave like you say you do anyway...

You're swapping to staff because you are worrying about getting your bloodlust stacks up, while I'm camping my hammer to spike more players into downed state. As a commander I know which of those two playstyles I would want in my squad.

I mean if you're zerging it gets more ridiculously way to stack because 5 kills is nothing then.

Even so you could zerg naked and it wouldn't make a difference really lol

Currently my staff currently runs Sigil of Cleansing + Sigil of Hydromancy. Why the latter? Because out side of defense/cleansing, my staff is used for 3 main purposes:

1) fighting 1v1 with someone in my grill2) breaking CC on lords3) AoE cleaving downs / revives

At no point would I swap to Staff for any other reason, and in those circumstances, Hydromancy will out perform Bloodlust every single time.

But bloodlust on staff would outperform your hydromancy while you're camping your hammer, which you admittedly do most the time. Even when you swap to staff for cleaving it's arguable that bloodlust would give more damage.

You will definitely out perform me on a Golem in the special forces training area, but seeing as that isn't where I play WvW, I question the accurateness of your assertion.

On a golem I'd have 0 stacks. It would be a very poor choice.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:How will I know if an enemy is easy to kill because they sacrifice utility for raw numbers though?

Yes all the utility of 1 sigil from the less used weapon /s

The only builds where stacking sigils aren't optimal that I can think of are some warriors build and most supports/healer builds, but do tell me

You see just one sigil, I see someone that probably makes many poor choices for their "optimal" build.

I mean, my biggest mistake is probably picking a class that isn't that strong atm, but beyond that I don't actually think I have anything suboptimal in my current build, at least not that is suboptimal in the "strictly better/worse" sense.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

Yet swapping out force and moving bloodlust to your staff would usually have been the correct move, even just replacing force and keeping bloodlust frontbar would be better in the vast majority of situations.

I like doing math on things because it's not subject to opinions or preferences. Having strictly better options generally aren't good for diversity, for most builds there's essentially only 3 sigil slots because of the stacking one.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Keep them. There are other sigils that provide better benefits to a build than raw stats. The stacking Sigils are best at meeting breakpoints when you otherwise would not (like crit chance or hitting a 1k increment of a stat). These sigils compete with sigils of energy, hydromancy, cleansing, battle, absorption, draining, and any number of others that provide great benefits.

There's no breakpoints for anything but expertise and precision. There's nothing special about 1k increments.

Only battle is comparable to the stacking sigils (as they do very similar things). It comes up very short. Providing an average of 180 power/condi, this is of procced on cooldown (with no boon duration), first at 39% boon duration does it become equally good. However realistically you're not weapon swapping instantly everytime it's off cooldown, especially on some builds. In addition to this, might has a cap and can be corrupted/removed.

This is assuming 2 might sigils, or using them on a warrior (with shorter swap cd), with only 1 sigil and full cd it doesn't even get halfway there.

The biggest benefit is still that they give their buff on both bars, if they did not they'd not be BiS, they'd just be slightly better bursting/force. This would essentially remove them.

The only roles that the stacking sigils of absolutely a must have are 1shot meme builds and we're about to see those get nerfed hard. So keep the sigils, you'll need them to make up for the damage nerfs that are coming.

Must have are a question of definition. They're optimal for most builds. Nah dmg will still be fairly high next patch

Sigil of Battle will do different things depending on the class using it. I.e. a warrior can get up to 4000 healing and 12 endurance on weapon swap with that sigil and the right build even if might capped. This is only one example of why stacking sigils are not necessarily the best in slot. Great filler though if you can't find something more useful.

Yes and warrior is basically the only exception to the stacking sigil situation because weapon swap sigils are extremely strong when you have 5 sec swap CD. They are the only class that has that tho, my warrior builds are essentially the only ones where I don't run stacking sigils (usually). I even mention it in a previous post.

Except that the swap sigils have a 9s ICD ><. Warrior benefits no more from them than anyone else.

Meaning that I can have might on one bar on warrior and manage to trigger it every 10 sec, instead of needing it on 2 bars to proc it on CD. So I can run 4 swapping sigils (that I can proc on CD) instead of 2 (or 4 I can only proc every 20 sec, or some combination of the 2).

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I used to use Bloodlust on my Hammer with Sigil of Force on my Rev, but as Burn DH became more and more common on the field, I swapped it out instead for Sigil of Generosity, and I saw a huge boost to my survivability. Making that switch was an overall DPS gain vs. getting downed, swapping to staff more frequently to cleanse, or running Mallyx as my second legend.

You say that removing them would increase 'variety', but by removing 1 option you are doing the exact opposite. The mistake you are making is you are clinging to the napkin math that shows Bloodlust is superior over all, but WvW isn't played on a napkin.

But what if we gave him a pen and dice too?

Wizard is OP on paper, but Fighter is OP in practice lol.

Not even the same game, but traditionally in dnd style games, Wizards are way more op once you teach higher levels than a fighter could ever be, but this is hardly the place for such a discussion.

I think you missed his dice and pen comment. Schrodinger's Wizard is OP, but in practice they are limited but what the memorized for the day. Fighter however always has the means to do its job. Particularly in Pathfinder. Hence the strong on paper versus practice statement.

This is the last I am entertaining the pathfinder analogy. (not I've only played pathfinder 1, not 2 so if anything is different there I wouldn't know)

Comparing a wizard to fighter in a traditional dnd style ruleset will basically always come down to

First few levelsFighter is tanky and hits hardWizard is squishy, does low dmg and has a few very weak spell slots

They have about similar tools outside of just doing dmg

Higher levelsFighter can hit a bit harder and a bit more times/turn
> Wizard can fly, mind control, stun entire encounters and has a ridiculous amount of spell slots, there's a reason a ton of spells are categorized as save-or-lose

This right here is Schrodinger's wizard. Nominally the y can do everything, but in reality only what they took for the day (Fighter can fly now btw without a wizard's help, and get bane on demand)

Wizard has an absurd amount of slots at higher levels.

Interesting I did not know that was added, what book?

There were two player's companions released: The Armor Master's Handbook and the Weapon Master's Handbook. Each turns Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery of the base Fighter into strong class abilities. For Weapon Mastery, you can take Advanced Weapon Trainings. One of which lets you place a weapon enhancement equal to your Weapon Training bonus onto your weapon, part of which can be a magic enchantment, of which Bane is eligible. There is another Advanced Weapon Training called Item Mastery which allows you to pick up one of the Item Mastery feats with only meeting part of the prereqs. One of these mastery feats lets you fly some number of times per day. As far as DPR Olympics go the three highest damage dealers are an Arsenal Chaplin Warpriest with Longbow, A Vanilla Fighter with Longbow, and the Inquisitor with a Longbow. Granted these are scored at level 10. At level 11 when the fighter gets another iterative he becomes top DPR.

Outside of combat, there's very few things the wizard can't do, the fighter is essentially still just an extremely good athlete.

The wizard's utility outside of combat is too big to really describe here.

In addition to this, generally the fighter is rather the character that looks op on paper cause you get big dmg/turn but it has no utility, making it a very strange analogy.

Back to the issue at hand

Stacking sigils are very strong both on paper as they give a high dmg boost (or other kinda boost less commonly) as well as in practice because their opportunity cost is so low, given that you can slot them on the less commonly used weapon.

The strong in practice is relative to the rest of the build which is what has been raised. If you spec into a single condi for damage (Burn guard for example). Then have a condi on crit sigil and a sigil of smoldering on each set is best since the cover condi's keep the burn ticking and the smoldering keeps them ticking for longer. If you need Might (MMR+MM or Blighter's Boon for instance) then Sigils of Battle and Strength become better than a stacking sigil.

Well smoldering is a weak sigil actually that for a wide variety of reasons poorly compare to corruption. It's essentially 300 expertise that only works for 1 condi and takes 2 slots. Condition damage is generally a stronger stat, due to clears. 2 sigil slots is a much bigger opportunity cost.

If the only condi you care about maintaining over a long period has a unique sigil then its best to run that + a cover condi sigil if you class/build doesn't offer cover condis, otherwise bursting is better than a cover condi sigil.
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