Can you overhaul Revenant already? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Can you overhaul Revenant already?

Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

Making your heroic class feel like it has less choice, less control over its gameplay and overall feels weaker than every other profession is kind of terrible.

I also love Renegade but it's trash in PvP, sadly.

Comments

  • Wait whaaaaaat I've seen some kitten good heralds play in pvp and the build has so much options and utilities plus swapping legends allow for more buffs..

    Idk... I haven't played rev in pvp except in wvw but kitten man the heralds are scary in pvp

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    Why are you talking about Herald again?

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Eh, I am not convinced that it is weaker than every other profession. Whenever I hear this said, it gives me the impression that people don't actually experiment with builds and can only see through the eyes of the current meta, or Metabattle. What about the class makes it so weak? I would agree that Ventari and Kalla are on the weaker side, but we will probably see a lot more Kalla Renegades in the next balance patch, at least in sPvP. Although Shiro is getting hit pretty hard, I honestly think Revenant is coming out of the balance patch as one of the luckier ones.

  • @Aodlop.1907 said:
    Why are you talking about Herald again?

    Because Renegade isn't a profession, but an elite spec for Revenant? Just like Herald is? Not every elite has to excel at every role or play mode.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the double Legend system is abit of a boon as well as a bane.

    It's good because it provides alot of depth and combos as well as lots of versatility
    It's bad cos Devs love to target it for nerfs.

    I wish Devs would target other things for nerfs or reworks after they are done sticking their hands into Legend Utilities.

    And remove Energy costs for Weapons if they are gonna give us proper cooldowns for those.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    And remove Energy costs for Weapons if they are gonna give us proper cooldowns for those.

    I'm gonna have to disagree with that, personally. Weapon skills having energy allows for legend skills (and e-spec f-skills) to cost less energy. Remove the energy cost from weapon skills and you are going to see all non-weapon skills get a moderately to significantly increased cost. In my eyes this would be a simplification of the class' relatively thoughtful mechanic as well as a way of decreasing flexibility of skill choice and use. Perhaps if what you are looking for is to not be "doubly punished" by cooldowns and energy costs on weapon skills, an ammo system would be appropriate. Although to be honest, it's hard to see where those would fit in. I could imagine Staff 4, Shield 4, Axe 4, and maybe Shortbow 4 working decently with an ammo system, but not really much else.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly I think over time due to lack of imagination or laziness both thief and rev will suffer and continue to suffer in the future due to their unique resource mechanics. The energy on rev and the ini on thief will be in the forefront of consideration during each attempt to nerf the classes resulting in the eventuality of revs energy costs being so high 2 skills will deplete the energy as a whole, same regarding ini on thieves.
    Seems to be trend so far anyway.

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    And let’s face it, aesthetically, no one likes the Charr party.

    Yup. I avoid the Renegade legend as much as possible. I love the portal thingy with the arrows though.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Zsrai.1740 said:

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    Why are you talking about Herald again?

    Because Renegade isn't a profession, but an elite spec for Revenant? Just like Herald is? Not every elite has to excel at every role or play mode.

    But they should. And renegade not only does not excel it is worst PvP build among all elites and core for all classes. It is expansion weapon performs poorly in open world PvE. The only area it does well is raids and support. This is extremely limited. Do I need to run a comparison against every pof elite and show how extremely limited renegade is?

    And let’s face it, aesthetically, no one likes the Charr party.

    There are people who regard shortbow, properly supported by the rest of the build, as one of the best weapons for open world. Wooden Potatoes cited a shortbow revenant as the best open world revenant build, for instance - granted, his criteria might not be most people's criteria, but the only flaw I can see in his build for open world bosses and bounties is that melee-oriented builds offer better sustained DPS, and that's to be expected when comparing ranged to melee in general.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Zsrai.1740 said:

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    Why are you talking about Herald again?

    Because Renegade isn't a profession, but an elite spec for Revenant? Just like Herald is? Not every elite has to excel at every role or play mode.

    But they should. And renegade not only does not excel it is worst PvP build among all elites and core for all classes. It is expansion weapon performs poorly in open world PvE. The only area it does well is raids and support. This is extremely limited. Do I need to run a comparison against every pof elite and show how extremely limited renegade is?

    And let’s face it, aesthetically, no one likes the Charr party.

    There are people who regard shortbow, properly supported by the rest of the build, as one of the best weapons for open world. Wooden Potatoes cited a shortbow revenant as the best open world revenant build, for instance - granted, his criteria might not be most people's criteria, but the only flaw I can see in his build for open world bosses and bounties is that melee-oriented builds offer better sustained DPS, and that's to be expected when comparing ranged to melee in general.

    Generally speaking, open world builds primary goal is farming regular mobs, and much solo. World bosses is no different than raids (a bit easier). SB has serious hit consistency issues against anything that moves, especially if it is not a large hit box. That rules it out most of the time. And for rev as a whole, power herald in PvE is ideal most of the time. Sword 2,4 and 5 eat mobs and shiro mobility is superb.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    There are people who regard shortbow, properly supported by the rest of the build, as one of the best weapons for open world. Wooden Potatoes cited a shortbow revenant as the best open world revenant build,

    Is not like there's much options: with staff and now hammer doing no damage, and the sword splitting the damage when there's more than one target, the only two weapons which remain are mace and shortbow. And still, mace is stronger (and imo Hizen's condi Herald is better than Potatoe's power Renegade for open world).

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Zsrai.1740 said:

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    Why are you talking about Herald again?

    Because Renegade isn't a profession, but an elite spec for Revenant? Just like Herald is? Not every elite has to excel at every role or play mode.

    But they should. And renegade not only does not excel it is worst PvP build among all elites and core for all classes. It is expansion weapon performs poorly in open world PvE. The only area it does well is raids and support. This is extremely limited. Do I need to run a comparison against every pof elite and show how extremely limited renegade is?

    No, they shouldn't. Not even why, but HOW would every Elite spec EXCEL at every role or play mode? Each Elite should be better at certain things, especially when each class has two of them; each Elite should not just be great at everything. Filling certain roles and niches is important, not every class doing everything the best.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Zsrai.1740 said:

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    Why are you talking about Herald again?

    Because Renegade isn't a profession, but an elite spec for Revenant? Just like Herald is? Not every elite has to excel at every role or play mode.

    But they should. And renegade not only does not excel it is worst PvP build among all elites and core for all classes. It is expansion weapon performs poorly in open world PvE. The only area it does well is raids and support. This is extremely limited. Do I need to run a comparison against every pof elite and show how extremely limited renegade is?

    And let’s face it, aesthetically, no one likes the Charr party.

    There are people who regard shortbow, properly supported by the rest of the build, as one of the best weapons for open world. Wooden Potatoes cited a shortbow revenant as the best open world revenant build, for instance - granted, his criteria might not be most people's criteria, but the only flaw I can see in his build for open world bosses and bounties is that melee-oriented builds offer better sustained DPS, and that's to be expected when comparing ranged to melee in general.

    Generally speaking, open world builds primary goal is farming regular mobs, and much solo. World bosses is no different than raids (a bit easier). SB has serious hit consistency issues against anything that moves, especially if it is not a large hit box. That rules it out most of the time. And for rev as a whole, power herald in PvE is ideal most of the time. Sword 2,4 and 5 eat mobs and shiro mobility is superb.

    The hit box issues are mainly with skills 2 and 3, which the build largely doesn't use - it uses skills 4 and 5 and otherwise mostly autoattacks and uses energy for utilities (including utilities that buff autoattacks).

    If you're looking for pure DPS and going melee is viable, going melee with your melee DPS set is going to give you the most damage. This is how the balance is intended to be for most professions, and if your criteria is that a ranged DPS-oriented weapon has to match the melee DPS set, that rules out a lot. There definitely are times, in my experience, where good ranged DPS performs better than melee, even if the melee weapons have higher potential in ideal circumstances.

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    There are people who regard shortbow, properly supported by the rest of the build, as one of the best weapons for open world. Wooden Potatoes cited a shortbow revenant as the best open world revenant build,

    Is not like there's much options: with staff and now hammer doing no damage, and the sword splitting the damage when there's more than one target, the only two weapons which remain are mace and shortbow. And still, mace is stronger (and imo Hizen's condi Herald is better than Potatoe's power Renegade for open world).

    Not familiar with the specific build, although I've put together something that's probably similar and certainly does burn things down pretty quickly in melee. Hard to get sustained range outside of the reach of Searing Fissure, though - viper (or sinister) still gives you decent power damage, but the only condi you can get out of hammer is through Abyssal Chill with the leap and, until the patch lands, the occasional Rampant Vex proc (which you won't get many of due to hammer's low attack rate).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    I think Revenant is also due for more weapon options, and not through specs.

    If yu compare Revenant to every other Profession which doesn't feature unique mechanics which bolster their available skill set (talking about professions like Engi and Ele, and lowkey Thief due to their unique Ammo mechanic), Revenant is left with technically the lowest amount of combinations.

    I think this alone is an issue, because Devs are left buffing the chicken out of these remaining weapons, which lead to them being so strong that Legends are often hit to force Revs to have lesser Energy to use these weapons.

    I'm just wondering if we could have more options for weapons, like Mainhand Axe, Offhand Mace, just to give us a little more options to play with.

    These weapons could be Power or Condi or utility or whatever, but if we have more variety, there won't be a need to overload the small pool of weapons to make Rev not feel weak.

    Especially now since utilities are getting major Energy nerfs, Revs are gonna rely more and more on weapons to engage in combat, and every single Rev weapon right now are kinda clunky to use or are gonna get nerfed as well (SotM is one of Rev's major damage moves, Shackling Wave, Fissure, just for a few examples)

    There's nothing for Revs to fallback on, besides maybe weapon AAs.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think Revenant is also due for more weapon options, and not through specs.

    If yu compare Revenant to every other Profession which doesn't feature unique mechanics which bolster their available skill set (talking about professions like Engi and Ele, and lowkey Thief due to their unique Ammo mechanic), Revenant is left with technically the lowest amount of combinations.

    I think this alone is an issue, because Devs are left buffing the chicken out of these remaining weapons, which lead to them being so strong that Legends are often hit to force Revs to have lesser Energy to use these weapons.

    I'm just wondering if we could have more options for weapons, like Mainhand Axe, Offhand Mace, just to give us a little more options to play with.

    These weapons could be Power or Condi or utility or whatever, but if we have more variety, there won't be a need to overload the small pool of weapons to make Rev not feel weak.

    Especially now since utilities are getting major Energy nerfs, Revs are gonna rely more and more on weapons to engage in combat, and every single Rev weapon right now are kinda clunky to use or are gonna get nerfed as well (SotM is one of Rev's major damage moves, Shackling Wave, Fissure, just for a few examples)

    There's nothing for Revs to fallback on, besides maybe weapon AAs.

    Pretty much. Apart from the introduction of the trident, the revenant weapon choices still bear the hallmarks of the original design of being a non-weaponswap profession like the Ele and Engi. Which means that at the moment, core revenant has weapon purposes that only have one weapon that fills that purpose - for instance, they only have one core ranged weapon, and only one weaponset that's designed to be used with a condi build (sword gets used, but mostly because it's the least bad option and has decent synergy with Corruption traits, but that synergy is going to be substantially reduced in the update).

    This creates two problems as a profession:

    The first is that you have a weaponswap profession where for some builds, you can't really get a good swap for them.

    The second is that the profession becomes very sensitive to changes made to a single weapon. Hammer nerfs for the sake of WvW, for instance, have (combined with the generally poor showing of renegede) made revenant into essentially a melee-obligatory profession in sPvP for years. If there are a couple of weapons that can fill the role, however, then if one gets a heavy nerf, then people can switch to the other until and unless the dead weapon gets restored.

    It's why I generally advocate for core revenant to get a ranged condition-oriented weapon, since it essentially fills both gaps with one weapon.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    It's why I generally advocate for core revenant to get a ranged condition-oriented weapon, since it essentially fills both gaps with one weapon.

    Some of the existing weapons could use reworks too.

    Hammer is ridiculously badly designed that I have no idea how it managed to ship and exist in its current state for so long.

    It's straight up clunky and unwieldy, and has very awkward weapon skills.

    Take Phase Smash for example.

    Hammer has established itself as a primarily Ranged weapon, so where does Phase Smash fit into all this?
    Ignoring its obscenely long cast time, it pretends to be a melee skill but actually "isn't"

    Hammer 5 also has a disgustingly long animation and nothing in Hammer's kit actually supports using it, other than opening with a Hammer 5 and pray it hits something.
    Hammer auto also has an awkward cast animation, and is actually even more affected by conditions like Slow than other animations due to the weird twirl when the animation winds up.
    Hammer 4 while a decent Ranged support, is extremely useless since it follows the player and is basically impossible for a Revenant to use for other combos than Hammer auto.

    If it were up to me, I would totally replace Phase Smash and Drop the Hammer, and rework other skills which have similar functionality but better suited for Ranged combat.

    • Hammer Auto animation needs to be cleaned up
    • CoR could have its damage adjusted and have a cripple applied to it, similar to Warrior's Hammer Shock and Guardian's Zealot's Embrace.
    • Phase Smash could be changed into a backwards evade which leaves a Dark blocking Field. This can be used by the Rev to do other Combos, like a Leap or a Blast or a Whirl in it.
    • A new Hammer 4 could be implemented, something along the lines of multi-hitting ground targeted eruption. Could apply conditions. Could be channeled. Idk.
    • Hammer 5 could just be a faster cast with a shorter knockdown duration, or just cast and forget.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the main theory behind Phase Smash is being able to perform blast finishers at range. It also provides a few evasion frames, adding further defensive capabilities. What it doesn't provide is a means of opening or maintaining a gap, but I'd argue that it doesn't really need one - most legends offer a mobility option, a knockback, or some other means to engage effectively in close combat, and revenant is a soldier profession after all.

    Main issues are probably the slowness of skill 5 and the autoattack - particularly the autoattack. Having such a slow autoattack breaks synergies with so much other revenant stuff, especially since Impossible Odds became additional strikes after every hit rather than quickness. ArenaNet obviously had a certain theme in mind when they made revenant hammer, and it's not an altogether bad theme, but a weapon that slow does not work with the rest of revenant's kit.

    There are also the various bugs with skill 2 to consider.

    I wouldn't call hammer 4 useless - it's a projectile block that also provides lifesteal comboes. I think it also triggers a combo when used with Phase Smash.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Hammer is ridiculously badly designed that I have no idea how it managed to ship and exist in its current state for so long.

    It's straight up clunky and unwieldy, and has very awkward weapon skills.

    Hammer was a fairly strong weapon until February of the last year, when quickness was removed from Impossible Odds so that skill no longer could haste the cast speed of the hammer skills. Sure, not the best weapon for PvE dps but its handly long range + large AoE was gold for things like open world bosses and map completion, and in competitive modes IO made ok until Shiro was destroyed. After the long chain of nerfs to the Rev in 2019 (vulnerability procs, might stacks, quickness and swiftness access...) this new patch just will bury the hammer for every game mode (and maybe every class).

    Doesn't help also that currently the two legendary hammers are amongst the less inspiring ones in the game (not only they barely have any reflect in the skills of the few classes that can use them, but also because there's half dozen of hammer skins which look better than The Juggernaut or Sharur). Remembers me the hammer from the Warrior: from wide use in WvW formations to entirely discarded due continuous nerfs (albeit Warrior's hammer had use in PvP for a while).

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    In addition to leaving some things underground, and looking from a pvp perspective, I think stunbreaks must reach an intermediate point since it seems crazy to play in pvp / wvw without an empty container and with the increase in energy in RP.

    I understand that adjusting RS and breakstuns is essential, but how they are addressing it is not the right way and I will explain why.
    Empty container disappears, then you will need to use 70/80% of your energy to clean a stun in shiro / jalis / mallyx (glit is separate since it spends 0 relative and Ventari has no breakstun), after that it will not have energy to counterattack to his enemy, basically he will not be able to do anything. One idea would be to put cd leaving the cost intact, to avoid spam and do more than simply execute basic punches or run after leaving the stun. Now the question is ... Does any profession of gw2 have this mechanics implanted? Well, then being punished without weapon skills or legends for cleaning a daze is correct?
    Other main rev to comment?

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    Anet shouldn't have to rework their ideas because people can't make them work in the first place. This profession is easily one of the most misunderstood next to engineer, I'd have more faith in the public complains if people were actually playing it and experiencing what it really is for, because I do it and it works wonder, factually it isn't personal bias as I have got the complains to share from people fighting me to back up myself with along what I can and can't do to elaborate with. Objectively I could do a big list of Revenant facts to display all the great feats it can do and what is uniquely it's jam.

    Renegade suffers from the same weakness Dragonhunter has in PvP which is up to the player compensating for them, otherwise it excels greatly at teamfighting for objectives and AoE domination.

    Herald is overrated because it has a more familiar tone to the rest of other professions.

    Core is overlooked because barely anyone understand the class in the first place.

    Removing Empty Vessel was the most healthy change for Revenant and if the majority again fails to understand what it means to be liberated from such crutch, it's their loss. Having to not longer feel like a stunbreak was wasted on legend swap is a blessing and opens grand diversity to the profession.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Revenant was one of the best ideas this game ever produced. But together with engineer all of its speciality in wvw and open world got hammered down by build templates. Rest of the mechanics would have been really nice if they were not so buggy or nerfed to the ground.

    Atill it works well and it can do a lot of good. I disagree with renegade being ok in spvp. It is absolutely bad. You can pull it off but it depends on your enemy being worse than you. In an even situation you are mostly kicked in the jewels. Maybe there are 1-2 really good players that can do it but I doubt even they can pull it off that well. There are so many better options.

    Hammer, ventari, renegade summons and the horrible healing orb mechanic needs a rework for sure.

    Core rev also works ok for me. True that herald is better in most cases but it is really fun and easy to use core (compared to renegade).

    Empty vessel trait removal would have been blatantly idiotic if they had not cut down cc dmg that much. Now it can be ok. Time will tell.

    Rev needs another ranged weapon and more condi weapon possibilities.