Fractal elitism on the rise in LFG

[tim.4596]

@pfc.9430 said:I've noticed a few other classes being treated the same way and it's seriously affecting lfg fill times. There may be 3+ CM groups waiting for the same specific class (hb/bs/alacren) and all 3 groups will stubbornly stay in lfg for half an hour instead of merging (one group requires 100 ess, other group 150ess for example) or accepting a different class because a non-meta group might take 2min longer to clear. The worst is when 200ess groups are waiting on a healer for half an hour instead of just taking another dps and clearing faster. If you have 200 ess, you should know mechanics well enough to not need a healer especially considering that higher dps leads to even less mechanics.

Sorry, what do you mean? Don't you need the firebrand for quickness at least ?

[Matze.8429]

Tbh our Group doesnt even take an warrior we just stack 2-3 guards which buff themself with 200-600 Power when using cc if the Support firebrand use it aswell even more thats why i love guards fit fractals

[Condutas.3580]

"will always LFG for DPS"

Since 2016 that anyone with at least 200 hours in the game knows that LFG is just to be used when everything else fails. Complaining about what happens in a LFG squad/party is pointless, you are already willing to gamble with what you get, soo get other ways to do the content you want and love.

Get a static of friends/guildies that do fractals with competent players and leave lfg behind.

[BRNBRITO.9624]

Sorry, what do you mean? Don't you need the firebrand for quickness at least ?Most groups will need a firebrand for decent quickness yeah, faster groups can just prestack quickness and run DH instead of Fb since it's all burst/phases (DH brings FMW) for CM's and on T4 bosses don't live too long as well, don't need to sustain quickness/heal for 2-3min if you can insta-cc and 100-0 burst in 10s (ofc a bit longer in some cases).

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Don't put words in my mouth; I'm okai with power compo and the "don't join/make your own group" blablablaBut those groups on LFG :Two DH looking for a FB since hours, but grumbling or kicking heal or condi ones ... :# I don't know ... adapt, change spec and stop whining ?Same, groups looking for a particular DPS like SB with stance/spirit, or the power FB, etc for hours you have time to do your run and find them back in LFG :# ; may be I'm wrong but my Definition of "Time saving" seems a bit different.Groups kicking berserker when they look for DPS, but the already present banner slave does better than the "dps" :#

Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

[Shikaru.7618]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Don't put words in my mouth; I'm okai with power compo and the "don't join/make your own group" blablablaBut those groups on LFG :Two DH looking for a FB since hours, but grumbling or kicking heal or condi ones ... :# I don't know ... adapt, change spec and stop whining ?Same, groups looking for a particular DPS like SB with stance/spirit, or the power FB, etc for hours you have time to do your run and find them back in LFG :# ; may be I'm wrong but my Definition of "Time saving" seems a bit different.Groups kicking berserker when they look for DPS, but the already present banner slave does better than the "dps" :#

Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

It is not your place to say when the group leader should lax on the team they want to build. If they want to wait an hour for a stance share and you are not a stance share trying to force your way into the group that's your bad. You can politely ask if they're ok with an alternative build but it is their perogative to say no and ask you to leave. There are plenty if groups that will likely finish before them anyways that you should join.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Don't put words in my mouth; I'm okai with power compo and the "don't join/make your own group" blablablaBut those groups on LFG :Two DH looking for a FB since hours, but grumbling or kicking heal or condi ones ... :# I don't know ... adapt, change spec and stop whining ?Same, groups looking for a particular DPS like SB with stance/spirit, or the power FB, etc for hours you have time to do your run and find them back in LFG :# ; may be I'm wrong but my Definition of "Time saving" seems a bit different.Groups kicking berserker when they look for DPS, but the already present banner slave does better than the "dps" :#

Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

It is not your place to say when the group leader should lax on the team they want to build. If they want to wait an hour for a stance share and you are not a stance share trying to force your way into the group that's your bad. You can politely ask if they're ok with an alternative build but it is their perogative to say no and ask you to leave. There are plenty if groups that will likely finish before them anyways that you should join.

This is my place to laugh.

[lare.5129]

@Nephalem.8921 said:Dh is not the meta dps though.it is meta. If we talk about fractals. Read topic again please.

[lare.5129]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.yest It is mostly true. Only only change on words, not "you".real true is:Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow SC/DT tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Don't put words in my mouth; I'm okai with power compo and the "don't join/make your own group" blablablaBut those groups on LFG :Two DH looking for a FB since hours, but grumbling or kicking heal or condi ones ... :# I don't know ... adapt, change spec and stop whining ?Same, groups looking for a particular DPS like SB with stance/spirit, or the power FB, etc for hours you have time to do your run and find them back in LFG :# ; may be I'm wrong but my Definition of "Time saving" seems a bit different.Groups kicking berserker when they look for DPS, but the already present banner slave does better than the "dps" :#

Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

It is not your place to say when the group leader should lax on the team they want to build. If they want to wait an hour for a stance share and you are not a stance share trying to force your way into the group that's your bad. You can politely ask if they're ok with an alternative build but it is their perogative to say no and ask you to leave. There are plenty if groups that will likely finish before them anyways that you should join.

This is my place to laugh.

This goes almost beyond stupidity to be honest. Why putting yourself into the situation to argue with others about stuff they don't want in a simple video game group while there are so many others around and you are able to build your own? I've played fractal cms over 7 months to get the god title asap and never ever forced any group to change their stuff. Why? Because it will create trouble. Maybe not everytime but it will. So, the easiest thing is to join the groups where you can meet the requirements or make an own which will lead to harmless runs in the end.It's really beyond my imagination why people tend to try to change others opinions & desires in such an irrelevant thing called video game group if there are so many possible alternatives around.If you have a vision for a better future, fine go ahead but not in a fractal group. You need to spread it in a place you can reach a majority. To try it via an 5th spot in a 4 men group won't do it.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Don't put words in my mouth; I'm okai with power compo and the "don't join/make your own group" blablablaBut those groups on LFG :Two DH looking for a FB since hours, but grumbling or kicking heal or condi ones ... :# I don't know ... adapt, change spec and stop whining ?Same, groups looking for a particular DPS like SB with stance/spirit, or the power FB, etc for hours you have time to do your run and find them back in LFG :# ; may be I'm wrong but my Definition of "Time saving" seems a bit different.Groups kicking berserker when they look for DPS, but the already present banner slave does better than the "dps" :#

Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

It is not your place to say when the group leader should lax on the team they want to build. If they want to wait an hour for a stance share and you are not a stance share trying to force your way into the group that's your bad. You can politely ask if they're ok with an alternative build but it is their perogative to say no and ask you to leave. There are plenty if groups that will likely finish before them anyways that you should join.

This is my place to laugh.

This goes almost beyond stupidity to be honest. Why putting yourself into the situation to argue with others about stuff they don't want in a simple video game group while there are so many others around and you are able to build your own? I've played fractal cms over 7 months to get the god title asap and never ever forced any group to change their stuff. Why? Because it will create trouble. Maybe not everytime but it will. So, the easiest thing is to join the groups where you can meet the requirements or make an own which will lead to harmless runs in the end.It's really beyond my imagination why people tend to try to change others opinions & desires in such an irrelevant thing called video game group if there are so many possible alternatives around.If you have a vision for a better future, fine go ahead but not in a fractal group. You need to spread it in a place you can reach a majority. To try it via an 5th spot in a 4 men group won't do it.

Why I would put myself into these situations ? I don't get it, I haven't said that. Why you say that ? I can't read LFG and question myself about their logic, their gameplay ?I just read LFG and offers my solution if it's close or if no precise requirement is given. Calm down.And your experience is fine, congratulation for fractal god. The thread is about elitism and these LFG with very specials requirements tend to be the norm increasingly. I've been like you, I'm fractal god too, I did it with Chrono support, with FB a big part (different builds, condi, diviner, zerk, heal...) but also Chrono DPS, holo, even Reaper and I often perform better with my reaper than some DH that can't rotate after a 6 traps burst.When I see these groups expecting a particular compo, I expect or expected from them a particular level of skill too ; but guess what, it's trash half the time. They're closed in the meta compo but you realise most of them don't know even why; they can't adapt, can't read instabilities, can't think about possible mechanics to apply, and they leech their 250ess head down, eyes closed. Won't give a all experiences, but a sample : not pulling/killing the golems/bandits at ark when they deal 300% dmg in the back and push people, no instant CC nor double broken bar for Ensolyss; people standing in weakness zone; people rushing but pulling half the map or on contrary not pulling the expected ones; Siren's reef without ren or FB with stab, anti-proj, tomes and withut cleave; berserker performing better than DH and Weavers; renegade without AP, perma alacrity, soulcleave summit for burst ...I am at this level of disappointment about "elitism", I often prefer chill "50 kp" than "250/300+ KP" because I prefer to carry learning people and good surprises than bad, but somewhat expected, ones thinking its owed.It's really beyond my imagination why people are okai with a standardization in a video game with so many possible alternatives. Mostly when people goes (forced sometimes) into the mold without any question and explanation and so can't play it well.If you have a vision for my better future in your opinion, please keep it for yourself.

Edit ; I don't know but if you think 'forcing' people to change spec or relog will create trouble may be it explains the blinders people wear and so the lack of overview.Why should I trust players that don't know the potential, the needs, the limits of others and can't adapt to delicate situations ? If a Dh can't play FB, i'm done.

[YtseJam.9784]

Yeah this is what I hate about the GW2 community lately. I've been playing fractals since even before HoT, when it was random 3 + Jade Maw (every other level), and did it with guildies with random classes, we beat them every day easy. I've seen the rise of elitism started like 2 years ago, people wanted to run them like Raids. And I'm like WHY??? And then you see these people today still posting like that on LFG, posting all the builds they want, blah blah blah and then you join them and they are noobs. Don't know the mechanics, constantly wipe. Can't even beat the Ooze in Thaumanova without burning it on 1 try. If they wipe, they keep trying to burn in 1 go, if it fails they rage quit. If you know and do the mechanics, you'll beat it on first try... but no... This is the same reason I stopped running raids. Pugs always wanted to burn stuff in 1 go, if we wiped once or didn't meet the DPS check and had to fall back to doing mechanics, like Gorseval, they would get angry, call you a bad commander, etc. rage quit or I had to kick them for being ducks. Where did all elitists come from? Wasn't like that in the first few years... sigh...

[Vinceman.4572]

@"YtseJam.9784" said:Yeah this is what I hate about the GW2 community lately. I've been playing fractals since even before HoT, when it was random 3 + Jade Maw (every other level), and did it with guildies with random classes, we beat them every day easy. I've seen the rise of elitism started like 2 years ago, people wanted to run them like Raids. And I'm like WHY??? And then you see these people today still posting like that on LFG, posting all the builds they want, blah blah blah and then you join them and they are noobs. Don't know the mechanics, constantly wipe. Can't even beat the Ooze in Thaumanova without burning it on 1 try. If they wipe, they keep trying to burn in 1 go, if it fails they rage quit. If you know and do the mechanics, you'll beat it on first try... but no... This is the same reason I stopped running raids. Pugs always wanted to burn stuff in 1 go, if we wiped once or didn't meet the DPS check and had to fall back to doing mechanics, like Gorseval, they would get angry, call you a bad commander, etc. rage quit or I had to kick them for being ducks. Where did all elitists come from? Wasn't like that in the first few years... sigh...

It was always like this even in dungeons when fractals weren't a thing. The best solution is and was to avoid groups that look suspicous and if there's none in the lfg suitable to you create your own stuff. Worked for me every single time. The groups I had problem with where the ones I either failed to see the signs which were absolutely there beforehand or just let it go and get skritt done although it turned out to be a horrible run. My own groups were far from perfect but with people with the correct mindset (something like: "be a nice person but know mechanics").

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:And your experience is fine, congratulation for fractal god. The thread is about elitism and these LFG with very specials requirements tend to be the norm increasingly. I've been like you, I'm fractal god too, I did it with Chrono support, with FB a big part (different builds, condi, diviner, zerk, heal...) but also Chrono DPS, holo, even Reaper and I often perform better with my reaper than some DH that can't rotate after a 6 traps burst.

I'm sorry but this made me raise my eyebrow.

You admit to using desired meta classes (chrono support was meta before Firebrand and both are highly sought after), with some off runs on classes which are far from terrible (power chrono is very good damage, as are Holo and Reaper even now AFTER they got nerfed). Yet you question why others desire specific classes?

This would have made sense to me if you had said you had made fractal god as core necro, or something absolutely undesired. But you literally followed the meta primarily, only not on a dps but rather as a support class. Yet you come and tell others to not desire meta classes? This is very confusing to me....

We all know that EVERY class can clear fractals and CMs. We all know that great players will perform more than necessary. There was demand for meta classes in the past, and there is still now.

@YtseJam.9784 said:Yeah this is what I hate about the GW2 community lately. I've been playing fractals since even before HoT, when it was random 3 + Jade Maw (every other level), and did it with guildies with random classes, we beat them every day easy. I've seen the rise of elitism started like 2 years ago, people wanted to run them like Raids. And I'm like WHY??? And then you see these people today still posting like that on LFG, posting all the builds they want, blah blah blah and then you join them and they are noobs. Don't know the mechanics, constantly wipe. Can't even beat the Ooze in Thaumanova without burning it on 1 try. If they wipe, they keep trying to burn in 1 go, if it fails they rage quit. If you know and do the mechanics, you'll beat it on first try... but no... This is the same reason I stopped running raids. Pugs always wanted to burn stuff in 1 go, if we wiped once or didn't meet the DPS check and had to fall back to doing mechanics, like Gorseval, they would get angry, call you a bad commander, etc. rage quit or I had to kick them for being ducks. Where did all elitists come from? Wasn't like that in the first few years... sigh...

You are having a case of rose tinted glasses. What you described has always been the case in some runs and is not a recent occurrence.

There is still tons of free for all T4 fractal groups or all welcome T4 fractal groups daily. What you also have to account for is the different stages of fractals and how difficult they were with wide swings. The easiest having been the 3 swamp+x meta, followed by the 4 necro+druid meta.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

What don't you understand in "specific class" ? Please read the full thread for context.We all know that EVERY class can clear fractals and CMs, so why some groups are looking for particular DPS, see DH/Weaver but reject Chrono, berserker, DD, etc ?

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:What don't you understand in "specific class" ? Please read the full thread for context.We all know that EVERY class can clear fractals and CMs, so why some groups are looking for particular DPS, see DH/Weaver but reject Chrono, berserker, DD, etc ?

You are here complaining about groups desiring specific classes, meanwhile you yourself did fractals as THE most desired classes there is/was.

Let groups look for whatever they want, it's none of your business. Feel free to make your own groups with which ever requirements you feel like.

If everybody minded their own business a bit more and let others play how they want, this issue would go away.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It is our business to all. That is exactly what you say . : let people play what they want.We're all okai about some favorables conditions; quickness, mights, vulnerability, buffs etc ; and that the points we need to argue, to highlight.But we should explain there are a lot of classes that can perform very well and people shouldn't exclude some for false stereotypes or ignorance and close themself in only one composition.Because otherwise our new players would conclude everything is trash except DH, and looking for a compo they don't analyse in the substance.

No, you don't necessarily need a renegade, mostly if he doesn't find the f2-f4 keys nor the mallyx legend.No, you don't necessarily need FB if you play with 2-3 DH.You may even perform better in PUG with 4 DPS than a duo FB/REN with lack of alacrity and buffs.You don't need to copy/paste SC or other "record video" if you can't give the same performance or don't get all the tricks and features, nor the mechanics or needs of fractals/instabilities.Yes you can relog, change spec, utility skills, change approach; because it is about efficiency and not "It has to be the way the other did".You can play different DPS rather than DH, even 3 Berserkers if you want and it should even be stronger as it has insane burst and dps on short fights. All you need is to imrove your rotation and adapt some traits and utility if needed.And that is the explanation we need to give.

[Safandula.8723]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Don't put words in my mouth; I'm okai with power compo and the "don't join/make your own group" blablablaBut those groups on LFG :Two DH looking for a FB since hours, but grumbling or kicking heal or condi ones ... :# I don't know ... adapt, change spec and stop whining ?Same, groups looking for a particular DPS like SB with stance/spirit, or the power FB, etc for hours you have time to do your run and find them back in LFG :# ; may be I'm wrong but my Definition of "Time saving" seems a bit different.Groups kicking berserker when they look for DPS, but the already present banner slave does better than the "dps" :#

Some players like the small boxes. Tomorrow you tell them the new meta is chrono/druid again and Reaper for dps, and you'll find a lot of LFG for Chrono/druid/reaper.

Propably its becouse, some players dont want to leech Daily rewards asap, but have good run when u phase bosses properly, and ur satisfied from ur performance.

[Safandula.8723]

@lare.5129 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:Dh is not the meta dps though.it is meta. If we talk about fractals. Read topic again please.

Meta would be most efficient tactic available. Dh is not used in meta runs outside of siax, enso, mama (that would be rly fast kills, where fb precast quickness and swap to dh) and some records

[Safandula.8723]

@pfc.9430 play what u like and do ur own lfgs, but dont expect to not be kicked from 250 kp runs where pugs expect that 60-70 k burst dps, which thief just cant achive. Its all about burst.In lower kp groups, where PPL just coppied traits and Gear from dt/SC site and dont play class for to long, ye u Will easilly outdps them

[Axl.8924]

@pfc.9430 said:

@borgs.6103 said:My advise is become like water....For the record though, I love thieves as DPS because they do decent damage and also bring utilities that can skip a lot of mechanics - like the switches on Underground, Aetherblade and even skip stuff on Cliffside.That is why I leveled other classes/professions but I honestly just enjoy the thief playstyle more. GW2 is not a job, I play because I enjoy playing. Those who play different styles shouldn't be punished for it so long as they are able to keep up.

@Asum.4960 said:...It's just not a healthy state for the community to be in and it eventually gets so bad it's a self-perpetuating problem of keeping even more players away with harsher and harsher gatekeeping and eventually straight up toxicity....This is exactly how I feel.

@Nephalem.8921 said:Not having access to quickness, alacrity and might doesn't lead to higher dps. You wouldn't use supports at all if this was the case. Non meta groups take double the time easily and staying alive for 5min+ bossfights with we bleed fire or afflicted is not something everyone can do without ren or fb....As far as I know every class has access to quickness and might. If not having one of those three (typically quickness or alacrity) makes you take twice as long to clear then you need to work on mechanics. A boss fight where 3dps @20k =60kdps is the same as a boss fight with 4dps @15k = 60kdps. Similarly, a boss fight where you might expect 3dps @30k = 90k takes as long to clear as 4dps @22.5k =90k. No extra mechanics, no time loss. These numbers are in line with my observations with a typical ~100ess group. I personally don't need a ren or fb and have cleared several times without them....Thief isn't even bad in non static runs though and this is more of a "bad players try to copy a meta they don't understand or couldn't execute anyways" problem....That is exactly my complaint: non-skilled meta players ruin the game for people who have taken to time to hone their class....What do bad fractal classes have in common? They all lack burst.So why is burst so important? The breakbar is to blame for this. 50% increased dmg just gets way too broken with burst professions....I somewhat agree with you however the numbers I see on arcdps indicate that my daredevil burst is on par with other classes in 100-200ess PUGs....All the recent fractals don't have that anymore so its something at least. Now new bosses just need to stop porting around every 3sec and maybe more hp....Those bosses that port around are exactly why you would want a thief. I consistently outdps PUGs on 99cm because daredevil repositioning is part of the rotation(+15% dps on low endurance, +10% dps after dodge, +dodge aoe, +7%crit from behind, etc.) whereas most other classes lose dps when they need to reposition. Coincidentally, 99cm is my favorite fractal.

@"Henry.5713" said:Remember when there were about ten groups on the LFG at all times looking for just that one chronomancer? Good times.

On a serious note, my best advice is to tell people they are free to kick you if you underperform as a DPS. Many seem to agree to that deal and it is up to you to prove them wrong then. A good Daredevil will usually beat most mediocre players in any case....I often do this. I still sometimes get people who say "your dps sucks, kick" when I am top dps on team as per arcdps. When I call out everyone's dps they get mad and say I'm making numbers up. I kinda wish the game would come with a dps meter just to shut those people up.My second advice is to just grow a thicker skin and to stop blaming everyone else's supposed toxicity. Seems a little ironic to me that you judge others for insisting on having that healer, a subpar option in your eyes, while you get angry at them for calling your thief the worse option when compared to other META DPS.I've never been toxic towards a healer, I've never been toxic towards a group who wanted a healer. I was simply pointing out the absurdity of waiting 30+min for an "ideal" comp when all the players in the group claim to be of very high skill level. Even in high skill groups someone might go down from time to time which does affect times slightly as we all have to jump to res or take 30sec longer to reach next phase but the extra dps should offset most of it.@"Vinceman.4572" said:

1. Open a group yourself. Always was and still is the best thing to prevent situations you encountered. Of course some people will still blame you and maybe there's a group here and there that'll boot you before starting although you created the group but that will be very rare.I do, it takes hours to get a group as no one wants to join a single thief on lfg
2. Don't insist on only playing one class & role and being the one trick pony. It helps a lot to understand others struggling and will speed things up when looking for a proper comp. In the old "pug" meta I was able to play dps, druid & war so once we had that chrono the group was good to go.I sometimes join "training" runs for CMs just to get more new players into CMs and fill both dps and support roles as thief. Not only do I call out the mechanics but I also do anoms/balls/healing/reflects/blocks/skip/port and sometimes solo entire phases. Thieves are fairly flexible. Heck, I even boon support in raids. I agree with "dont be a one trick pony" but my class is capable of filling various roles. If I join as dps role then shouldn't the fact that I'm keeping my dps up, follow all mechanics, don't go down and otherwise keeping up with the other dps enough?In addition people didn't like thief in the past and they won't like it in the future without certain changes. Thief has always been an egoistic dps class and more of use when in need of stealths etc. Nowadays other dps classes are so much better for backing up the team once things go a little bit south. So, think about it: Why would I take a thief for my pug run if I can have that juicy dragonhunter that definitely can & most likely will smooth my "pug" run. This point is also the answer to your 200 cm essences accusation towards healer. When I was on route to fractal god I wanted to get the job done. Were we able to do it without a healer? Of course. Was it chill and fun every single day? No, not at all so a healer was the thing to use to get the the result without struggling.A good thief will also smooth your run. I've had groups where no healers were available and the group skill level was not high enough to run without a healer and so I reorganized my build to provide heals and reflects... I've had groups failing blooms on arkk and end up doing 3, sometimes all 4 of the blooms with p/p. I've had groups failing CCs on Siax so I took care of it myself. A kitten dh won't smooth your run but a good dh will. Similarly a kitten dd won't smooth your run but a good dd will. I don't need a healer, I always play as if I don't have one so that if I go down it's 100% because I kitten up. Of course it's easier for me to play with a healer and offload some of the responsibility but my point is that all too often people spend so much time getting frustrated trying to get a group together when it would of both taken less time and been less frustrating to just run without one of the roles. Of course only higher skill groups should run CMs without a healer.

@"Cyninja.2954" said:...To add to that:

• in low skill groups, you are far better off having a DH with additional F2, F3, reflects and self-sustain via his Litany of Wrath over a thief.I can provide heals and reflects though yes the aegis is nice if perfectly timed. I don't think pointing to the fact that another class has aegis is a good enough reason to not play thief. I can also fully self-sustain through every fractal.
• in high skill groups the burst of thief is below what other classes provide when trying to instant phase bossesDefine high skill groups. I am on par with burst from other classes in 100-200ess PUGs. I have met 250+ess static dps that were able to out-burst me on single adds however the adds were down in a single hit so who cares? Yes their single hit hits harder than my single hit, but we both just had to hit once... On longer bursts with 4 or less small hitbox enemies I tend to outburst them. I also outburst them in large groups of low hp/small hit box.The only things thief brings are:
• reliable cc with Basilisk Venom, if the thief isn't running Thiefs Guild (which for me is usually a reason to remove them on cc heavy fights since they are prefering to greed some meager dps versus support the group)As a thief I have to disagree. Basilisk venom is not reliable due to small aoe, long cast time and very long recharge time(these are getting fixed in the next balance patch) and the fact that other players don't know how to optimise it's use. Impact strike is usually a better choice and I usually have fist fury used just before cc in case we dont insta-break. On noob runs I also add venoms and swap weapons.
• reliable easy dps which will outperform weak PUG dps playersYes and no. Thief as deadeye(38k) has the second highest(to condi weaver, 39k) non-cleave single-target small-hitbox damage benchmark in the game according to snowcrows golem. I tend to avoid deadeye in fractals but its available. Thief as daredevil is listed as 9th build though it has cleave and is listed as doing 35k which is pretty kitten good for sustained damage. This is just behind elementalist(39k condi weaver, 35k power weaver), mesmer(37k) and guardian(37k). Thief dps is no wet noodle....It's not only about how fast you clear overall. It's a mix of players knowing specific rotations and processes. Not having alacrity will cause certain skills to not be ready, rotations change, cc might not be available when needed, uptime on other boons is directly affected. The same goes for multiple other things. Not having a Renegade directly leads to not having enough cc for fast phases, not having Mallyx for boon removal, etc.I agree with your assertion that different group composition will affect how you have to play however PUGs aren't statics. If someone hasn't learned how to run a fractal with different support levels then they should be upfront and not claim to be a high-skill level player. A high skill level player will know how to compensate for their rotation. Even instabilities affect rotation(boon overload, afflicted, frailty, outflanked, toxic, bleed fire, hamstrung). Hamstrung actually specifically punishes daredevil the most with the +33% endurance regen.The META setups are not only based on speed and dps, but optimal encounter trivialization. Not having stability in weaker groups will mess with inexperienced players rotations. For experienced player, not having stability if expected will cause them to lose dps, making phases take longer.Low skill players with stability mess up the timing. If anything this would be a plus for a meta group with medium-high skill as you know the stability will be available. I enjoy some good stability.The only real classes which are interchangeable are dps, and only if they:
• provide similar cc (mitigatable via consumables or very fast phasing bossesgot that
• provide similar dps (thief is not one of the classes which allows for enough burst but rather has a high sustained damage output directly relating to most of the damage coming from AA instead of skills)If a thief is getting most of his "burst" damage from AA then they are either AFK or new to thief. Daredevil burst consists of draining endurance first(on the way) followed by some combination of assasin's signet, weakening charge, and fist flurry with other things thrown in depending on the traits they took. As I have already said, thief burst dps is on par with other dps classes in 100-200ess PUGs. Yes other classes can have more burst on golems but that is irrelevant.
• provide similar utility (if needed)Port/stealth/heal/reflects/combo fields/venoms/boons(might/ferocity, others in raids) but other DPS aren't even expected to provide these.This is not a simple: just take something else instead of waiting. This is literally a: if you take something else, you might have to completely relearn the fractal. The fact that a proper setup will be nearly twice as fast versus sub-optimal groups is just the icing on the cake.Again, it's only twice as long in an inexperienced group that was barely making it to the end in the first place. Same dps = same clear time if people don't kitten up.

@"BRNBRITO.9624" said:

but it's gotten to the point where people are elitist for the sake of being elitist and well beyond their own skill levelDefinitely, whenever i see a wannabe-elitist group asking for pDps for T4 (or even CM tbh) i'll usually join on cFb, funny to see people's egos getting crushed because they get outdps'd by a cFb and "eVeRyBoDy kNoWs cOnDi iS bAd PrO pLaYeRs SaId It", just confirms that people copy paste builds and don't even bother learning them properly and play as if it's single-player content by ignoring mechanics and greeding, doing mediocre dps and still being extremely toxic.

Honestly if you're not doing speedruns then literally any class works if you're playing properly, rarely see thieves but there's a few good ones around, seen 1-2 guys pulling consistent 20k+ arkk, 28k+ ensolyss and 30k+ siax which is more than 99% of NA pugs can do honestly, obviously sb/dh/weaver etc

CAN

end up with a higher number but it'll almost never happen in pug parties because people are not playing optimally and it's a disorganized pug after all, from my experience 50 or 250ess parties are the same almost everytime, reminder that this is for

NA

, i hear great things about pugging on EU.

Having a good thief is way better than a garbo greedy dh/weaver/slb, i don't know where people get the idea that pugging for a single non-meta dps makes things take twice as long, it doesn't really count if you're playing on a speedrun static, this is pugging, and as i said, average skill level on NA is extremely low overall, despite fractal titles and ess amount.This guy gets it!

I messed around with condi teef a bit enjoyed it quite a bit. Doing it for fun not to be top speed run.

Play what you like all be kittened.

[Amaranthe.3578]

Join a guild and don't pug. That's what guilds are for.