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Nerf Thief


mortrialus.3062

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While a lot of meta builds such as Glint Shiro, Fire Weaver, Spellbreaker, and Condition Mirage are scheduled to receive extremely heavy direct nerfs in addition to the general across the board damage nerfs listed in the preview, thief and Daredevil are currently my vote for the strongest builds in ranked and in ATs the problematic aspects of thief+daredevil are not being touched at the moment.

Please nerf:

Infiltrator's Strike.Escapists Fortitude.Smoke Screen.Leeching Venoms.

In that order of priority.

Infiltrator's Strike

Infiltrator's Strike and Infiltrator's return has been a sore spot for players for literally years now. Even thief mains such as Vallun have suggested nerfing Infiltrator's Strike and return by 300 range. I don't think I'm out of line by suggesting this skill chain needs some adjustment both in this current environment and in the new landscape presented by the balance patch preview where mobility for builds has been nerfed across the board.

Right now Infiltrator's Strike and Infiltrator's Return combined cost 5 initiative for the equivalent of 2100 units of travel, swiftness, immobilize, and a condition cleanse. 5 Initiative is effectively a 5 second cooldown. At its face that much movement for that much initiative should show how out of tune the skill chain is. While I expect thief to have a very hit and run play style the way Sword 2 on thief is set up gives them basically unlimited capacity to hit and run.

And with Infiltrator's Return at only 2 initiative, even absolutely terrible thieves with no understanding of initiative management are going to be able to abuse the skill to always escape combat. Just statistically speaking the odds that even recklessly spamming will put you at below 1 initiative is very unlikely. So at most a thief player in danger only needs to wait one second to have the initiative to retreat potentially 1200 units of distance.

If I was in charge of balance I'd lower the cost of the Infiltrator's Strike down to 2 initiative and increase the cost of Infiltrator's Return to 4 initiative and the cast time on Infiltrator's Return to 0.5 seconds up from 0.25 seconds. This gives a slight decrease in value on the skill in general but not catastrophically so. As I said all that value for only 5 initiative on the skill chain is simply too much. And most importantly it makes it more difficult for thieves to dump all their initiative recklessly and have an escape route with Infiltrator's Return. And if they do use Infiltrator's Return, with a 4 initiative cost their capacity to immediately go on the offensive again is significantly reduced. And with average latency you would need to be a reaction time god to even hope to interrupt a 0.25s cast. At 0.5 second cast time on Infiltrator's return it still makes thieves very likely to escape combat, but not have functionally unstoppable capacity to escape combat.

Escapist's Fortitude

Escapist's Fortitude is being nerfed in terms of the healing. But right now the trait is absolutely busted in terms of condition cleansing. At a 1 second ICD, and the fact that sword thieves both SD and SP are reaching literally 30 seconds of evade across the first minute of combat, this effectively is a condition cleanse every 2 seconds when taking into account the cleanse, the ICD, and their capacity to evade. That is ridiculously out of tune with other trait based condition cleanses. Compare:

Engineer Transmute: Convert 3 conditions ever 48 seconds = a condition cleanse every 16 secondsWarrior Brawler's Recovery: 1 condition cleanse every weapon swap on discipline = 1 condition cleanse every 5 seconds.Mesmer Sympathetic Visage: 1 condition transferred to Phantasm on summon, the shortest cooldown of which is 12 seconds traited = 1 cleanse every 12 seconds.Mesmer Auspicious Anguish: 2 condition cleanses when casting Distortion = 1 cleanse every 25 seconds.Revenant Cleansing Channel: 1 Condition Cleanse on Legend Swap = 1 condition Cleanse every 10 seconds.Smothering Aura: 1 cleanse on aura 2 cleanse on aura detonation, with focus Fire Aura that's 3 cleanses every 20 seconds = Cleanse every 6.666 (repeating of course) seconds.Cleansing Sigil: Cleanse on weapon swap or every 9 seconds based on elemental attuning or engineer kit swap.

Even when you take into account that daredevils aren't evading every second, they still have a realistic capacity to evade every 2 seconds across a minute of combat which is still out of this world in terms of condition cleansing. Regardless of the healing nerfs, Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll. This will put it more in line with other trait based condition cleanses as well and the healing on the trait wouldn't be out of line or require a nerf either.

Smoke Screen

Again this is another trait being nerfed in the wrong way, or at least not to the degree it needs to be. Right now Smoke Screen effectively functions as an invulnerability field against a variety of builds. Currently at 7s duration on a 25 second cooldown it's at 28% uptime for a blinding field that also destroys projectiles. It's currently scheduled to go up to a 35 second cooldown which puts it down to 20% up time. This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks. Compare:

Feedback 240 radius 6 second reflect on a 32 second cooldown = 18% uptime on JUST countering ranged attacks and not melee attacks.Wall of Reflection 10 second duration 30 second cooldown = 33.33% (repeating of course) uptime on JUST countering ranged attacks and not melee attacks.

Either: Nerf the radius so it doesn't encompass an entire conquest node similar to both Black Powder and the way the skill functioned before orIncrease the cooldown further due to how this utility counters both ranged and melee attacks potentially up to 40-45 seconds.

Leeching Venoms

It both gives thief stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed and provides life steal when they strike an enemy with a venom. This trait has enabled seriously degenerate builds, namely permanent stealth one shot DP thief. It has this problem where it both gives a benefit for using certain utilities and clearly wants to encourage a certain playstyle (Venom Thief), but it also freely gives said combo so that any build can reap the full power of said trait. It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.

Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.

Edit:

The balance patch notes have been updated.

Additional changes

  • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
  • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
  • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
  • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
  • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
  • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
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I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

For example:

  • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
  • Venoms steal life as before
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@saerni.2584 said:I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

For example:

  • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
  • Venoms steal life as before

The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

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@"saerni.2584" said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate. If this skill is similar to pistol5, then its also ignore evades and blocks :)

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

For example:
  • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
  • Venoms steal life as before

The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

But with BS nerfed to 1.8 will this still be too much?

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@Odik.4587 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

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Blinding powder for what I'd soes should have got a harder CD nerfVenom is a non issueInfiltrator return should have its ini cost raised by 1 and only accessible apon successfully hit that way a block used appropriately can punish the thief by forcing it into using another disengage skill or stay in melee range. Escapist fortitude after patch will be fine.Every tele in game should require los.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

For example:
  • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
  • Venoms steal life as before

The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

But with BS nerfed to 1.8 will this still be too much?

yes, it'll still be good.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

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@zoopop.5630 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I generally agree with your analysis of Infiltrators and Escapists. Both are really strong and have little in cost or cooldown to reflect how important they are.

I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.

I’ll disagree that Leeching Venoms is what makes D/P oppressive. A little life steal isn’t really the point even if it improves sustain somewhat. And the poison only hurts if you actually have the stats and build to support it...the poison isn’t what is killing you. I’d say that this is one where a replacement rather than completely removing the stacking venoms (essentially a rework itself) is the best option, assuming we entertain the idea that the venom stacking is somehow a key trait for a permastealth D/P build.

For example:
  • Stealth attacks apply 3 stacks of poison for 3 seconds.
  • Venoms steal life as before

The thing with Leeching Venoms right now is that with Mug traited Steal+Backstab+Double Strike happening within a fraction of a second you're getting potentially 2k damage just from life siphon damage from that one trait on what is already close to a 12k burst. I do think the venom trait is what's pushing dp thief over the line, especially since a primarily defensive traitline shouldn't be pushing a build's burst so direct in and of itself already. And you get that bonus damage on your power burst without even directly playing into what the trait is supposed to encourage, namely venom utility skills.

But with BS nerfed to 1.8 will this still be too much?

yes, it'll still be good.

Good sure. But surely what Morty is suggesting isn’t about thief being “good” but being overpowered.

How is an extra 2k life siphon (assuming everything connects) a bad thing on a glassy build that hits much less hard post patch?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

Edit: I don’t believe having the ability to stand toe to toe with melee builds for a limited time (now 20% uptime post patch) is overpowered. If we reduce thief ability to gank with nerfed coefficients then we need some defensive fields to stay relevant given the rest of the kit.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.Player 1 isn’t revealed.

Edit:

Either way, I don’t think it matters much to the argument. I agree the field should be a bit smaller and would adjust the cooldown to a more normal 30 seconds than the current planned 35.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.Player 1 isn’t revealed.

you 100% gets revealed I can say from experience.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.Player 1 isn’t revealed.

you 100% gets revealed I can say from experience.

Interesting. Although, since we generally agree on the need for it to be slightly smaller of a field, I don’t think the distinction changes much.

If Smoke Field reflected I’d use it in combat for the reflect and avoid stealth during the duration. It would probably be more useful as a reflect against certain builds.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.

I fight enemy thieves all the time who are using Smoke Screen. It rarely is more than a delay tactic. They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln. And when it ends they are often running away as not.

the fact that thiefs dont use ability to its full potential is no excuse for it to be overpowered.and reflect is better then proj block but not by much, expecially on a class that wants to stealth and random reflect would reveal them.In fact making it reflect would propably be overall nerf to the skill, people could just throw basic ranged attack to reveal thief.

I don’t believe reflected attacks count as coming from the thief (and so don’t reveal them).

Having played mesmer for a while, i can assure you if you are stealthed and you reflect an attack and it lands you will reveal yourself.

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. To clarify what I’m talking about (correct me if I’m mistaken):

Player 1 is in stealth and puts up a reflect.Player 2 uses a blockable projectile attack on that reflect and is hit with their own attack.Player 1 isn’t revealed.

Edit:

Either way, I don’t think it matters much to the argument. I agree the field should be a bit smaller and would adjust the cooldown to a more normal 30 seconds than the current planned 35.

Always revealed.

Player 1 is always revealed. If you reflect, it counts as your own attack and thus if you reflect an attack while stealthed, strike an opponent you will reveal yourself.

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As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

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@saerni.2584 said:As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.Welp, you didnt know that reflect reveals you? No wonder :DAnd as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).Check the wiki how very few skills apply resistance may be?
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)
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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.

If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.

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@Odik.4587 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is
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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.

If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.

My issue with this is saying that a trait shouldn’t benefit both power and condi. Does it provide too much life siphon? Should the siphon scale based on condi damage? Is this mechanic problematic?

And I’ll return to the question: if the auto attack and backstab coefficients are nerfed as indicated, is a bonus 2k damage (assuming all hits go through, given that venoms expire on misses) really all that OP?

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@Odik.4587 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?

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