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Nerf Thief


mortrialus.3062

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As an aside, shooting yourself in the face revealing the source of the reflection seems like a silly mechanic but...oh well. Not really the point of the thread so I’ll try to bring it back on topic.

Mort, you make a decent point about the extra damage from life siphon being potentially a lot. Why not just ask for a nerf to the siphon damage?

Either works but the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed is newer and thus I assume would be missed less. Plus if we assume the trait is there to incentivize a certain play style, namely condition venoms thief, it doesn't have the capacity to burst in the way power DP is capable of and the lifesteal damage is less noxious as a result. It's just another potential facet to their attritive gameplay.

It just seems strange to me to nerf the venoms aspect when condi venoms thieves aren’t the issue. I’d rather the life siphon damage be tamed if that is where the issue lies.

If you remove the automatic stealthed spider venom it certainly hurts both but real venoms thieves will at least gain benefit from the trait when they use venom skills which is what we want while the DP Power burst ones won't which is also what we want.

If anything nerfing the life siphon but keeping the free Spider Venom while stealthed unfairly hurts venom thieves while still wrongfully empowering parts of thieves this shouldn't be empowering.

My issue with this is saying that a trait shouldn’t benefit both power and condi. Does it provide too much life siphon? Should the siphon scale based on condi damage? Is this mechanic problematic?

Based on the preview for the balance patch both deadshot and wanderer amulets are being removed so there will be no amulet that gives both condition damage without providing power damage anyway. The damage should probably scale of condition damage surely, but with the amulet changes I think this is kind of a moot point practically speaking.

But we definitely shouldn't want a trait in a purely defensive line to be significantly boosting a power damage build's burst. This is like adding a 20% damage boosting trait to warrior's defense treat. It's just inappropriate and it's already causing problems. If you're venoms and you're shadow arts you should gain benefit from the designed synergy. If you aren't venoms and running Shadow Arts the synergy should be lost on you just like how all other utility boosting traits operate.

And I’ll return to the question: if the auto attack and backstab coefficients are nerfed as indicated, is a bonus 2k damage (assuming all hits go through, given that venoms expire on misses) really all that OP?

I'd have to play the patched version to have a 100% certain answer. But I will say the coefficient nerf on backstab is less than the average 33% nerf towards all power skills so it will remain a very powerful power damage skill while many other skills will not, regardless of whether it is being boosted by the life siphon trait.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?
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@Odik.4587 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining? You don’t have to wait out the field, I wouldn’t wait. But I have a couple of abilities that can play around the field and if I need to I can just use a defensive or two.

I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op. Most just use a defensive skill or use attacks that hit between the blinds until the field runs out. They do less damage but the thief is usually in a bad spot if forced to play defensively during the Smoke Screen (less HP, initiative and endurance afterwards to keep up the fight).

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining?Stop defending this ridiculous dumb skill?I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is opThen this thread wouldnt be there.Im not interested in your biased mumbling.A note for these who wish to defend such stuff, like these war mains with rampage. Any OP/ridiculously strong skill have a counterplay in one or another form but it doesnt make it less stupid and they are getting look at sooner or later.
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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining? You don’t have to wait out the field, I wouldn’t wait. But I have a couple of abilities that can play around the field and if I need to I can just use a defensive or two.

I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is op.

Smoke screen was only changed from a line to a ring field back in July. At which point it went from a line that could bisect a conquest node to a field that could encompass an entire node. Condition daredevil was better/easier than core DP especially since the changes that super charged DP didn't happen since November.

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This is actually a very detailed analysis, but I don’t think thief needs all those changes to be balanced. I mean it’s like your saying the only things good about thief rn are these things which they aren’t. Thief is good rn because it’s a rotation heavy meta and I don’t think these traits are as good as u think- like smokescreen is definitely not an invulnerability field, it’s very good because it provides decent defense and allows for stealth like shadow refuge did, but more on the defense side. All we really need it the smokescreen to have reduced defense capability, for the invis on heal to get stealth nerf and possibly a slight nerf to sword 2(like Vallun suggested) also plz rework assassin signet to do something besides just power increase- maybe just give unblockable instead. Also for fun request, plz make mug be able to crit but obviously would need to lower power coefficient

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Infiltrator's StrikeI agree this needs to be looked into mostly the return part of it i always said making it so that if the initiating strike was dodged then either the return skill gets a cd or cost more or does not happen at all. But those are just my ideas either way this is probably the main skill that causes the most frustration for people.

Escapist's FortitudeI do not agree simply because

  • its unique to daredevil only its not something every thief build can take
  • daredevil has naturally been pushed to have stronger prowess in melee ranger than base thief and deadeye
  • thief in general has pretty low condi cleanse and the trait fits perfectly on a profession built around evading attacks

To be blunt daredevils wouldnt run this if mesmers/mirage condition application pressure was not "Constantly incoming" if it played like a proper burst class and had much weaker down times between its higher bursting applications then thieves would probably opt more for. Brawler's Tenacity or only using core cleanses. like the signet and withdraw etc.

Lets also consider Mirage's new Elusive Mind going forward which will clear 2 conditions for pressing evade regardless if you actually dodged an attack as where escapist at least requires you to dodge something for a single condition.

Smoke ScreenThe nerfs in play here are already fine.There are several ways to attack a thief through this unfortunately mesmer only has a couple. Like scepter 3 and GS auto. Heck even GS5 can push them clean out of it assuming you are not standing inside of it.Generally using either unblockable projectiles or melee attack that hits rapidly will allow you to easily hit the thief inside and force them out. By no means is this a invulnerability. This skills aoe range gives thief more pressure in team fights allowing them to actually brawl a bit vs only being a +1.

Skills like: Reapers shroud 4, Rangers off hand axe 5, Warriors gs 2 and 3, etcAll of which will cleave a thief inside while even standing inside due to the rapid hitsIdeally the way the skill is being nerfed it will be fine. While it does cover an entire node it also deals no damage which is not the same node issue like we saw with scourge shades so i cant agree with nerfing it anymore till after patch changes. IF its the only skill a thief has outside of dagger storm thats good for team support and team fighting let them keep that.

Leeching VenomsOk this one is kind of up in the air for me i think that auto stacking in stealth is fine but i feel like producing a cap on he max number of passive stacks is more appropriate. Simply cut the number of passive stacks from 6 to 3.1 stack on entry and up to 2 more over time at most even then im not sure they even need to do this cause this trait is not main the problem with 1 shot backstab thief.

Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

Ideally im not sure if this is even a problem this one honestly it really sounded like you nit picked something randomly out of the shadow-arts line to me. Thats just how it feels based on how its written. One shot D/P thief existed before this trait worked this way so i cant even give you the statement of ("This trait has enabled seriously degenerate builds, namely permanent stealth one shot DP thief.") because that was already a thing.

Closing opinion

So long as 1 shot anything from stealth regardless of the profession is removed from the game everything else thief for the most part has is going to be fine. Stealth in general needs adjustments for all professions not just thief so i wont simply point the finger at them for that the mechanic. In general is just a bit unfair because it lacks the standard built in detections that other games have no matter who uses it... thief, mesmer, ranger. etc

The only real skill that i think your post has any weight to focus on is Infiltrator's Strike as it is a problematic blink in and out which goes through obstructions with almost no limitations and has no punishing aspect for how fast the game plays now. In truth the skill use to be worse than this when the return was instant but now its clear that it needs to be looked at again. Still lets wait to see how damage overall looks after the nerfs.

Because you and several other people here are also mesmer mains or play that profession of choice quite a lot (nothing wrong with that by the way) i think its worth mentioning that if other players of other professions dont feel the same way about all of the key points you put out then its probably just your counter. Im not sure it needs to be said but mesmers have been longing for thief nerfs really hard for a long time and even more so now as of late because its one of the few professions that easily deals with them if the thief knows how to play. In almost every other match up mesmer holds the dueling advantage especially on a side node. If one profession can best them with the advantage but not have the advantage in the other 6-7 cases then that seems totally fine to me.

Even as a necro main who is also countered hard by thief i feel like some of your key points you want nerfed her are totally unnecessary.I have also played thief and daredevil and know how hard that profession has it when it comes to a wide range of matchups and how easy it is to have some one counter half your whole mechanic with a single button press. Literally other than Infiltrator's Strike your nerf points are a bit out of line.

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@"ZDragon.3046" said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of ("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of
("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.The warrior example use to be possibleThe ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

I feel like traits like this are super unique and give a bit of identity to the profession not to mention using the active venoms alone leaves a thief with 1 less critical utility for a condi burst that will be clensed and have a massive down time. We also need to consider the cost and time it takes to get to max stacks at minimum 15 seconds for a full 6 stack assuming you get 1 stack immediately on entry. +what ever tools you used to gain stealth access.

To be honest with you this still feels like nit picking something thats not at all the main problem with the reason as to why you called it out.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of
("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

Several thousand damage alongside a skill that's slated for general damage reduction alongside everything else. And if we're being real backstab requires skill and deserves high (though certainly not one shot) levels of damage. Life steal due to venom stacks automatically procing from stealth does not require skill.

A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.The warrior example use to be possibleThe ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

"Every so often" AKA Taking falling damage to proc the fall damage trait or casting a 20 second+ cooldown healing skill and procing lesser muddy terrain, and not literally every single time you enter stealth which you can do freely, permanently with no cooldown like you currently can with the Shadow Arts life siphon trait on DP.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of
("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")
Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

Several thousand
damage alongside a skill that's slated for general damage reduction alongside everything else. And if we're being real backstab requires skill and deserves high (though certainly not one shot) levels of damage. Life steal due to venom stacks automatically procing from stealth does not require skill.

Once again consider the time it takes to gain those stacks is it really that strong based on that. 15 seconds for few hundred at best maybe a few thousand points of potential healing or thousand damage assuming max stacks which at base requires 15 seconds of stealth time + resources to enter / maintain that stealth? You also just said it was not about the healing portion in your recent statement so i dont understand to call out the skill requirement around the life steal portion.

IF you are going to make skill arguments though then you are opening up a massive can of worms so i would like to avoid that if possible i dont think thats a fair argument to settle on as it will only lead to people poking at things you might use in your builds as to how they are not skillful, it generally not a healthy argument to start. So lets not go calling what is or is not skilled because it starts headache inducing arguments about who has the most petty skill/trait functionality on assumptions on what you think contributes the most to your losses against a certain build or profession.

A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.The warrior example use to be possibleThe ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

"Every so often" AKA Taking falling damage to proc the fall damage trait or casting a 20 second+ cooldown healing skill and procing lesser muddy terrain, and not literally
every single time you enter stealth
which you can do freely, permanently with no cooldown like you currently can with the Shadow Arts life siphon trait on DP.

As i said the problem is not with leeching venoms its with stealth which is universally busted and needs reworking. It lacks the natural level of counter play that can be found in other games but if it was similar to other games you should expect to see skills like smokescreen etc things that specifically allow a thief to fight outside of stealth without being instantly melted become more effective.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

Please nerf:Infiltrator's Strike

Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds

'Kay.

Escapist's FortitudeEscapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.

You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.

Smoke ScreenThis is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks.

No. You aren't punished for standing in the field apart from pulsing blind, unblockable goes through it, and resistance mitigates it.There's nothing stopping you from contesting the point with a smoke screen on it, so there's no need to do either of those.

Leeching VenomsRemove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.

'Kay.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Please nerf:
Infiltrator's Strike

Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds

'Kay.

Escapist's Fortitude
Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.

You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.

Smoke Screen
This is a solid enough change but it isn't enough considering it is a blind field that is literally as big as most conquest nodes @ 240 units giving it massive advantage against both ranged and melee attacks.

No. You aren't punished for standing in the field apart from pulsing blind, unblockable goes through it, and resistance mitigates it.There's nothing stopping you from contesting the point with a smoke screen on it, so there's no need to do either of those.

Leeching Venoms
Remove the automatic stacks of Spider Venom while stealthed, forcing thieves who want to benefit from this trait to have to take at least one venom utility skill.

'Kay.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Please nerf:
Infiltrator's Strike

Strike 2 init, return 4 ini, cast time 0.5 seconds

'Kay.

Escapist's Fortitude
Escapist's Fortitude deserves a 4-5 second ICD to put it more inline with other trait based cleanse traits or it should be changed to a cleanse on activation of a true dodge roll.

You can stow but lol ok, give the healing back though.

Also nah, it's a catch 22 if you haven't already put enough condition damage to kill the daredevil you literally need to keep attacking them if you want to win the fight at which point you're faced with either retroactively nullifying your own damage or doing so little damage to be unable to keep up with their healing. Regardless of whether you've applied enough damage to kill the daredevil, the daredevil is free to attack you and if you try to retaliate you risk completely nullifying the entirety of your own damage output. If a teammate you have no control of tries to attack the daredevil they can completely nullify your damage even if you are smart enough to stow weapons. This isn't even hard tied to a deliberate activation of a dodge roll like Elusive Mind or to an actual mechanic / resource like warrior's cleanse on weapon swap. Literally all of their endurance, all of their initiative, their healing skill, and their elite skill is effectively a cleanse.

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@Quadox.7834 said:Please can we get smoke screen on mesmer as well instead of feedback pleasepleasepleaseplease.

If you give thieves distortion/mirror.

The current meta demands escape and high levels of condi cleanse to live.The new (proposed) meta is apparently not that which is why:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Regardless of whether you've applied enough damage to kill the daredevil, the daredevil is free to attack you and if you try to retaliate you risk completely nullifying the entirety of your own damage output.

I consider this outlook fairer now than I would have pre-patch notes.As I keep saying, I'm up to playing fair, as long as it isn't stacked. The meta has changed.

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

  • thief in general has pretty low condi cleanse and the trait fits perfectly on a profession built around evading attacks

To be blunt daredevils wouldnt run this if mesmers/mirage condition application pressure was not "Constantly incoming"

^ That right there. I'd still run it but the only reason I -mandatory- run it is because of mirage condi builds.

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Infiltrator's strike

No to your range suggestions.

When you have been engaged, you should be making your way closer and closer back to their initial cast point, now the "escape" is gone.

The kit is also slow and does not burst in terms of damage. This is a tool built in to help thief from getting 1-2 KO by pretty much anything.

Escapist's FortitudeNo. Even with this and acro, necromancers and mesmers still pile on so many condis that it is tempting to bring addtional cleanse.

They have cover condis too. Other classes have better cleanses, ammo cleanses, cleanses built into weapons as well, or more options to trait to cleanse just as well, but the picks (such as mesmers normally take) are more towards dps, and so they suffer.

You can't compare things to thief and go "but they have this" without considering every other aspect of the class being compared.

Oh, did you know you can pile it on and just stow your weapon?

Smoke Screen

You can do evasive attacks into the field and they will hit, you can do resistance, you can use the radius of your aoe to hit them within the field. non projectile attacks such as mesmer gs1 will hit them from the outside. Ranger can barrage, any necro mark or focus skill. Any range non projectile attack, and target aoe (chaos storm) can hit them inside this field. Illusionary Wave can push them out of the field. NO damage comes from the field, the cd will be increased.

Leeching Venoms" enabled seriously degenerate builds"..ehhh

You might have a case for assassin signet over this trait.

The one shot is from squish and low health for anythief, but that signet can beef the attack before the 50% qualifier is met.

If they take away the auto stacking (at a cost, cause the shit ain't free), then they can give back the recharge or increase the potency or charges for venoms.

The mobility nerfs across the board

Other classes were getting to mobile and catching up to thief in terms of mobilty on top of their damage (which in longer fights, teamfights, duels, and 1 v x) is greater than thief.

Other classes have better sustain and stab access, might built into sustain lines, and power lines that add sustain.

I got a feeling sword contributed to the dodge loss for mirage.

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@"Crab Fear.1624"this is typical " dont touch my cheese " momentkeep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "and my favourite "Other classes were getting to mobile and catching up to thief in terms of mobilty"please, tell us what meta builds were so fast they were catching up with thief in mobility kekW

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@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When you have been engaged, you should be making your way closer and closer back to their initial cast point, now the "escape" is gone.

You can't compare things to thief and go "but they have this" without considering every other aspect of the class being compared.

Oh, did you know you can pile it on and just stow your weapon?

If they take away the auto stacking (at a cost, cause the kitten ain't free), then they can give back the recharge or increase the potency or charges for venoms.

Other classes have better sustain and stab access, might built into sustain lines, and power lines that add sustain.

Also of note. My opinion hasn't changed but he has a point.

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:this is typical " dont touch my cheese " momentkeep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

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on some notes mesmer's auspicious anguish converts is 2 per clone distorted, max 5 (all dmg condis)talking about broken stuff and thief - this actually makes your block backstab if you were getting +'d while fighting anything that applies burn if they try to spike (burn to aegis on steal)

and smothering aura doesn't have icd, it triggers as much as you can-> fire -> fire -> transmute = 4 cleanse every 8 secs

sympathetic visage, not really relevant right now but this probably cleansed 1 condi per sec when chrono was meta

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@Odik.4587 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.I just said why its better for thief to NOT have reflect on skill that he use to stealth himself? Logic?And as far as resistance. No, it’s not super common but the melee heavy classes which have the biggest issue with smoke screen are the ones that also generally have access to it.That statement is so ridiculous, almost no one except warrior has resistance in his builds ( signet - they use it at emergency times only because it disabled their regen,long cast time,easy to rip).
They may be harder to hit in that time frame but not invuln
.More like impossible to do anything meaningul . I still remember a meme "blind=invul" (cant remember who, but someone said its even better than invul in competitive play!) ;)

Unblockable projectiles. Melee AoE that hit repeatedly with a long range. Fast multi-hit attacks. Non-projectile ranged attacks.

And I still say that thief needs more defense in a meta where burst is tuned down. How is thief supposed to be anything other than a basic +1 if it can’t use a blind field in one spot, 20% of the time, to avoid being killed for the duration?

Also I’m not sure what you are trying to argue for or against. Is Smoke Screen an effective tool? Yes. Is it invulnerability? No? Is is too big? Probably but not by much. Did it need a longer cooldown? Yes, but maybe not quite as much of an increase if we are talking about nerfing the radius.

You seem to be arguing against having Smoke Screen at all...which I disagree with.Should be smaller in range and have less duration, for instance? Considering this "bring unblockable ranged attacks and resistance" that being toned down greatly is not excuse to leave it as it is

If someone uses a block I would say “bring unblockable.” It’s fair because you can wait out the field (not super long duration) or you can press your attack using skills that make the field useless. You want thief to never require an unblockable skill or a clever use of AoE?Dont remember need to wait 7 seconds till someone stop blocking. You making it look like thief is blocked out of all his skills and cant interact with the field or stop him from doing so. Why would anyone slot unblockables just because of 1 skill?

So use your multi-hit attacks and stop complaining?Stop defending this ridiculous dumb skill?I literally have never seen a player in a game complaining that smoke screen is opThen this thread wouldnt be there.Im not interested in your biased mumbling.A note for these who wish to defend such stuff, like these war mains with rampage. Any OP/ridiculously strong skill have a counterplay in one or another form but it doesnt make it less stupid and they are getting look at sooner or later.

One thread. Congrats. That’s not an argument and descending into ad hominem attacks won’t help you.

As others have pointed out this doesn’t do damage and any number of abilities allow you to bypass the projectile blocking. Even if you stand in the field all you get is some blind and that won’t last for long.

@mortrialus.3062

Yes, I remember when it was changed to a ring. I remember, because I specifically asked Anet to make that change. Because before it was a ring it wasn’t useful and no one used it.

When it came out I was surprised they made the ring as big as they did. But either way it’s not like I disagree with you on adjusting it, only Odik’s strange hatred of thief being able to stand their ground (barely) every so often.

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