Would you like more than 3 talent slots? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Would you like more than 3 talent slots?

Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭
edited February 7, 2020 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Currently, talents are the only way to truly customize your characters.
You technically have 5 slots, but one is for healing alone, and another for your elite talent.
So many fun talents! Yet...since you can only pick three, every choice matters. With so little room for choice, efficiency always comes first in the end, and the fun talents are forgotten.
I can't help but think that having one or two more slots for talents would lead to a better experience overall.

One obvious argument against such suggestions always appears, so I'll forestall and address it: "it would make the game harder to balance".
Honestly, the gap in performance would be minor to the point of irrelevance. Besides, no game can be truly balanced, and I don't believe you should be afraid to add depth/choice because of balance concerns alone.
StarCraft II has been out for a decade, it has close to a 50% winrate in all match-ups, and yet people still complain about balance on the forums. Despite that, the devs still make bold changes, like removing units that have been part of the game for years (Mothership core) and introducing new concepts (Shield batteries).
No change can affect balance to the point where the game becomes permanently unplayable.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    No change can affect balance to the point where the game becomes permanently unplayable.

    So your main argument is:
    We should have 4 utility slots because I want to, balance can never be good or too broken so we shouldn't care for it?

    Along those lines:
    I disagree and think having 3 utility slots gives a healthy limitation on having to chose between everything available, thus creating more value per slot and giving more meaning per choice.

    Completely agree, 3 utility slots is just right in my opinion. What I would mind having though is more utilities to pick from especially on classes like Rev. If they aren't going to create new specializations having a couple new utilities to play with might just be what this game needs in order to bring a new diversity in playstyles.

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    balance can never be good or too broken so we shouldn't care for it?

    Strawman argument, exaggerating my point and deforming it to better suit your point of view.
    What I mean is: perfect balance can't be achieved, we should tweak numbers and fix broken abilities to try and reach it, but we should also accept that it can't be completely done and not fear away from change.

    I disagree and think having 3 utility slots gives a healthy limitation on having to chose between everything available, thus creating more value per slot and giving more meaning per choice.

    Thing is, I'm not asking to use 30 hotkeys like in WoW.
    I'm merely asking for one or two more. I think it's fair, and your choice would still be meaningful with 4 instead of 3. You won't have "everything available" with just one more slot.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    You technically have 5 slots, but one is for healing alone, and another for your elite talent.

    Technically? Correct. But both the Healing and the Elite on many professions are taken for specific reasons, and can be swapped to suit current environments. So no, you have 5 slots.

    I'm actually pretty happy with GW2's skill system. I remember back in the day playing WoW where you might have 30 different abilities hot-keyed, but some of them might only get pressed a few times per play session. When I think of GW2, regardless of what class I'm on, or what content I'm doing, I'm usually using slot# 5-10 all the time, and 1-5 depending on the profession/weapon, but even then, it might be 1 weapon skill that just doesn't get used?

  • Pirogen.9561Pirogen.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    A wise man said:

    • And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

    Three is the right number.

  • Ronan.9518Ronan.9518 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    With so little room for choice, efficiency always comes first in the end, and the fun talents are forgotten.
    snip

    And how do you think that would change if we would have one or two more utility slots?
    People would still go for the most efficient ones.
    All it would do (in my opinion) is bringing more powercreep (e.g. in the form of take the utilities you would take now and add stat enhancing passive signets for the new slots, or simply more skills to spam on cooldown).

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    I remember back in the day playing WoW where you might have 30 different abilities hot-keyed, but some of them might only get pressed a few times per play session.

    It's something I actually liked in WoW. These niche spells used to allow for skilled moves that not every play would think of doing.
    "Scare beast" against a druid in PvP for example.

    Three is the right number.

    As an atheist, I must disagree.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A very important factor in choice with regard to game builds is opportunity cost. That is, if I take skill X, what will I not be able to take as a result. Adding (an) additional skill slot(s) may add choice in the execution of skills (i.e., you have more skills to use in a fight). However, it would take away some of the necessity to choose when designing the build by reducing opportunity cost.

    One of the important issues in game balance is power creep. ANet's incoming balance pass is designed to reduce some of the power creep which is afflicts the competitive modes in GW2. Removal of some opportunity cost will add to power creep. I'd be against the suggestion in WvW and PvP, and hardly see the necessity for it in PvE.

    I am not against fun. However, some people find fun in designing a build within the confines of opportunity cost, and adding to the fun of those who want more will take away from those who want to have to make choices. Also, there is a segment of the player-base which wants more challenge in the game. Additional power creep is much more likely to reduce whatever challenge there may be in the game, and that could reduce their fun. Sure, they could just "not use" the extra skill slot(s), but PvE in this game is not a single player experience -- and players cannot control what other players are choosing.

    If you want to use "fun" skills rather than the skills you consider obligatory, nothing stops you except your desire not to give up one or more of those "obligatory" skills.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Kurrilino.2706Kurrilino.2706 Member ✭✭✭

    Make it like GW1 and everything will be fine. 10 Slots, all customizable. Make skills interact with weapons instead blocking slots so people have more fun shuffling
    abilities around. I don't want to be forced to use a god awefull elite skill. I would love to put something in i truly want.

    It's really not that difficult. And before someone asks, i don't give a rats about balancing. I am playing PvE

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Aodlop.1907 said:

    balance can never be good or too broken so we shouldn't care for it?

    Strawman argument, exaggerating my point and deforming it to better suit your point of view.
    What I mean is: perfect balance can't be achieved, we should tweak numbers and fix broken abilities to try and reach it, but we should also accept that it can't be completely done and not fear away from change.

    Perfect balance is not needed. No balance =/= not having perfect balance. You are exaggerating your own argument.

    @Aodlop.1907 said:

    I disagree and think having 3 utility slots gives a healthy limitation on having to chose between everything available, thus creating more value per slot and giving more meaning per choice.

    Thing is, I'm not asking to use 30 hotkeys like in WoW.
    I'm merely asking for one or two more. I think it's fair, and your choice would still be meaningful with 4 instead of 3. You won't have "everything available" with just one more slot.

    Elite specializations have 4 utility skills. Granting 4 utility skills baseline literally means removing all opportunity cost between those 4 utility skills for example. The game is balanced around having 3 utility skills on multiple levels.

    You want 4, what about the person after you who wants 5 utility skills?

    What about the person who wants 6? What about 7? Are you seeing the issue here?

  • I’d be happy if they allowed an utility skill in the elite skill slot. The opportunity cost is losing the use of an elite skill while giving more flexibility in the number of utility skills you can use.

    Be careful what you ask for
    ANet might give it to you.

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  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aodlop.1907 said:

    I remember back in the day playing WoW where you might have 30 different abilities hot-keyed, but some of them might only get pressed a few times per play session.

    It's something I actually liked in WoW. These niche spells used to allow for skilled moves that not every play would think of doing.
    "Scare beast" against a druid in PvP for example.

    I agree with the original quote here; less but meaningful is better than a lot but not really used. Was it really that skillful to use scare beast in wow? Everyone that played at any decent lvl knew about it but at the end you had gazillion binds and most of them were used rarely (they reduced it with time, remember when you could also use all the spell's ranks and you had gazillion million billion binds). Also different games. Wow is slower paced but more strategical. Basically counter their spell with your spell. GW2 is more action paced and less skills suit it better.
    I'm fine with the number of utility slots. Would prefer if they focus on skill balance and making more utilities a viable choice.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    I don't see any justification being presented here other than 4 is more than 3. So ... I'm a no. Anyone that wants their choices to be meaningful in an MMO will also think no.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Aodlop.1907 said:
    You technically have 5 slots, but one is for healing alone, and another for your elite talent.

    Not true. It all depends on your profession. Arguable, Revenant is one of the professions that has most access to different utility skills, giving them 6 utility skills at level 80, 3 per Legend, not to mention 2 healing and 2 Elite skills.

    Engineer has the most utility access. A single healing skill (kit) slot can be 5 other healing skills. A single utility slot can be 5 other utility skills. Not to mention, they also have tool belt skills also. So for a single utility slot, an Engineer has access to 6 skills (5 kit skills and 1 tool belt skill).

    Elementalist has access to multiple utility skill also through their elemental glyph skills, Necromancer has minion skills, Thief has flip-skill (Shadowstep/Shadowreturn), Mesmer's Mantra, etc. Warrior is the only one that lost multiple skills when they changed the banners.

    So the premise of this post is wrong. Though there are 3 utility slots, it doesn't necessarily mean 1 slot = 1 skill. Therefore, GW2 don't need another utility slot. If you want tons of utility skills, take an Engineer.

    EDIT: typo

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see any justification being presented here other than 4 is more than 3. So ... I'm a no. Anyone that wants their choices to be meaningful in an MMO will also think no.

    Pretty much this, also i was -really- confused over what a Talent slot was when i read the title of this post.

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  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭

    I find it's balanced, not too many useless skill slots like WoW or too little skills slot like ESO (you have to sacrifice 1 skill slot for a skilll that give passive when slotted)

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see any justification being presented here other than 4 is more than 3. So ... I'm a no. Anyone that wants their choices to be meaningful in an MMO will also think no.

    Pretty much this, also i was -really- confused over what a Talent slot was when i read the title of this post.

    Yeah, I was too initially. I'm guessing it is WoW terminology. I too don't think the argument for more utility slots as presented is compelling.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    Which ones are the "talent" slots? the Utility Skills? the Specializations? the Build Templates? the Toys?

    Answer to all is "yes", but with different caveats.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • I do want a fourth trait slot:

    PvP/ WvW. It's only active in those modes and is the only trait line that can be used in those modes. Then competitive can be balanced without impacting the other game modes

    ...

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The utilities power are at the level they at based on fact that you can only equip 3. If you can equip more that will be a major power creep.

    The only one thing I ever wanted to see in PvE Is being to able to use any utility in elite slot. This could be really fun for some builds in PvE.