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Core Necro Post Patch Will Have Broken Sustain - Told You


Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

What I was saying is that it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

Considering there is less stab, less long lasting stab for corruption, less instant corruption available, less corruption available in general,much less condi duration, and doom now having a cast time I think this should be less of an issue?

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@Infect.2738 said:

@"Emapudapus.1307" said:Its not only about core necro too tanky/too strong, but as its showing itself its more like water weaver 2.0 interactivenes to play as or against. Fun fun, i dont think anyone wants that, op or not.

How is it like fighting a water weaver? It has 2 dodges (not counting a vigor source from somewhere)...you can still hit it even if some of the damage is soaked. That means you can still "interact" with it. A necro will never sustain as long as the current meta ele builds.

technically you could still hit the scrapper before it nerfs, didnt change the fact that nothing could kill scrapper 1v1 so everyone and their mother just ran you down on scrapper and afked on nodes.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

What I was saying is that
it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

Considering there is less stab, less long lasting stab for corruption, less instant corruption available, less corruption available in general,much less condi duration, and doom now having a cast time I think this should be less of an issue?

im afraid of scrapper v2.0i remember fighting scrapper, I remember dueling him for 2minutes, and his only strategy was to try to push me off the node from time to time to get 1 tick of decap.this shit made me stop pvp.its one thing to have classes with overtuned damage/survi combo like holo used to be and another as old scrapper used to be.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

What I was saying is that
it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

Considering there is less stab, less long lasting stab for corruption, less instant corruption available, less corruption available in general,much less condi duration, and doom now having a cast time I think this should be less of an issue?

im afraid of scrapper v2.0i remember fighting scrapper, I remember dueling him for 2minutes, and his only strategy was to try to push me off the node from time to time to get 1 tick of decap.this kitten made me stop pvp.its one thing to have classes with overtuned damage/survi combo like holo used to be and another as old scrapper used to be.

Necro doest have the tools, it's all health related and they can't avoid anything you throw. It won't be anywhere near.

Though damage has been cut I think people are still underestimating how much of an abundance of damage there was before. You'll still be able to punch through shroud since they can't avoid anything at all. Necro has been stated to be an attrition based fighter and due to inflated damage that was rarely seen. I think it's going to be interesting to see it preforming in its designed role more.

Necro will be relatively more tanky. More so than necro players think. But it won't be immortal like some people are making out. But will it be too tanky?

I'd rather see first hand than try and speculate. I think there is a lot of knee jerk and overreacting going on at the moment to these notes. From all sides.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

What I was saying is that
it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

Considering there is less stab, less long lasting stab for corruption, less instant corruption available, less corruption available in general,much less condi duration, and doom now having a cast time I think this should be less of an issue?

im afraid of scrapper v2.0i remember fighting scrapper, I remember dueling him for 2minutes, and his only strategy was to try to push me off the node from time to time to get 1 tick of decap.this kitten made me stop pvp.its one thing to have classes with overtuned damage/survi combo like holo used to be and another as old scrapper used to be.

Necro doest have the tools, it's all health related and they can't avoid anything you throw. It won't be anywhere near.

Though damage has been cut I think people are still underestimating how much of an abundance of damage there was before. You'll still be able to punch through shroud since they can't avoid anything at all. Necro has been stated to be an attrition based fighter and due to inflated damage that was rarely seen. I think it's going to be interesting to see it preforming in its designed role more.

Necro will be relatively more tanky. More so than necro players think. But it won't be immortal like some people are making out. But will it be too tanky?

I'd rather see first hand than try and speculate. I think there is a lot of knee jerk and overreacting going on at the moment to these notes. From all sides.

I would really like to believe you but time will tell, mb Im 100% wrong but if im not it will suck.TODAY while wighting weaver, I landed every single ability on my kit, on glass cannon berserker amulet mesmer, both sword and GS, everything.I was rewarded with weaver healing to full, after every single attack.by the end I had no cooldowns, and weaver was 100% hp with 20% hp barrier.I played around his every dodge, blink stunned him at the end of the dodge, delayed my combo to wait out another, knocked him into a wall so it would act as a stun and all that ment nothing, becouse he has full hp still.and I think necro could have the tools to do this too, 2 days ago I fought necro 2v1, he used his 100% hp shroud. tanked alot, dropped it. and somehow after 10s he had another 100% hp shroud, I dont know how he did it but the fact remains that he did.maybe its some stupid interaction for draining clones? but the fact is, in that 20s fight, me and rev had to chop throught 80k worth of HP.

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As a Necro main, I shall give the fairest judgement to this thread.

I agree that Necro shroud needs nerf in the coming balance. It is too tanky for its own good.

I suggest to remove its innate 50% damage reduction so it becomes a lot less tanky.

However, we should be compensated by removing the shroud auto degeneration too and given a 7 seconds shroud cooldown.

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@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:As a Necro main, I shall give the fairest judgement to this thread.

I agree that Necro shroud needs nerf in the coming balance. It is too tanky for its own good.

I suggest to remove its innate 50% damage reduction so it becomes a lot less tanky.

However, we should be compensated by removing the shroud auto degeneration too and given a 7 seconds shroud cooldown.

You are only saying this because you have your own agenda because it doesn't fit your shroud flashing play style and "my 7 second shroud" for the last two and a half years. You know full well how terribly coded shroud is and that they can't just remove the innate dr else they would have done it years ago.

If core shroud turn out too tanky they can either change LF generation or how quickly it drains. You're 7s cooldown isn't coming back.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

But you brought up the point of high dps in a previous post respectively or was that not a serious point?

What I was saying is that it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

Necro does not have enough fears to constantly fear someone Let alone multiple people constantly. Most builds have 2 fears.... maybe 3 fears baked in to them at most. Any additional fear comes from boon coverts. IF you are silly enough to press/use something that gives you stability while fighting a necro then you deserved to be punished if you boon gets converted into fear.

With stability and converts being reduced we should theoretically see much less boon converted fears and if you are still getting boons converted constantly which do you define that as

  • boon applicator making a bad play?
  • Necro making a good play?
  • Or Necro spamming boon converts?

But no really...Staff fear is a 32s cd for a base 1s fearDoom will be dodgable (more so than point blank shot probably but dont hold me to that but the tell is likely going to be more noticeable) only hits 1 person and has a modest cd with a minor learning curve.Spectral ring depends on you to not hit the walls to not get feared while it limits mobility its not any different from any other kind of ring aoe that other professions have that cc you if you cross them.

Not sure where you you think its appropriate to combine the words Fear and Constantly together Tervor.Even now fears shouldn't happen constantly unless the target is spamming stability in their rotation without thinking about it which happens a lot often than i think people realize then they are quick to call necro fears op but dont considering how dripping in boon they are to not be a problem.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

What I was saying is that
it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

Considering there is less stab, less long lasting stab for corruption, less instant corruption available, less corruption available in general,much less condi duration, and doom now having a cast time I think this should be less of an issue?

im afraid of scrapper v2.0i remember fighting scrapper, I remember dueling him for 2minutes, and his only strategy was to try to push me off the node from time to time to get 1 tick of decap.this kitten made me stop pvp.its one thing to have classes with overtuned damage/survi combo like holo used to be and another as old scrapper used to be.

Necro doest have the tools, it's all health related and they can't avoid anything you throw. It won't be anywhere near.

Though damage has been cut I think people are still underestimating how much of an abundance of damage there was before. You'll still be able to punch through shroud since they can't avoid anything at all. Necro has been stated to be an attrition based fighter and due to inflated damage that was rarely seen. I think it's going to be interesting to see it preforming in its designed role more.

Necro will be relatively more tanky. More so than necro players think. But it won't be immortal like some people are making out. But will it be too tanky?

I'd rather see first hand than try and speculate. I think there is a lot of knee jerk and overreacting going on at the moment to these notes. From all sides.

I would really like to believe you but time will tell, mb Im 100% wrong but if im not it will suck.TODAY while wighting weaver, I landed every single ability on my kit, on glass cannon berserker amulet mesmer, both sword and GS, everything.I was rewarded with weaver healing to full, after every single attack.by the end I had no cooldowns, and weaver was 100% hp with 20% hp barrier.I played around his every dodge, blink stunned him at the end of the dodge, delayed my combo to wait out another, knocked him into a wall so it would act as a stun and all that ment nothing, becouse he has full hp still.and I think necro could have the tools to do this too, 2 days ago I fought necro 2v1, he used his 100% hp shroud. tanked alot, dropped it. and somehow after 10s he had another 100% hp shroud, I dont know how he did it but the fact remains that he did.maybe its some stupid interaction for draining clones? but the fact is, in that 20s fight, me and rev had to chop throught 80k worth of HP.

Yea there is one build that does this and very few people have discovered it yet and in a 1v1 situation its very strong unless someone knows how to properly burst it.I bet what you did was burst him in shroud because thats how necro is right now in most builds you just burst it at any point and its super effective. How ever this one build forces you to play like necro was before HoT. You have to wait for them to drop shroud and then burst them in that 10s window.That said while this build does heal necromancer to full hp (if allowed enough time) its no where near as fast as weaver.

Also yes your mesmer clones can make for additional life force by massive amounts if he is running spectral armor as each clone counts as an individual which can strike meaning each time a clone hits during that armor up time he would gain 8% life force add in you and the rev also hitting him and thats a lot of life force. (if it was a renegade rev and he was using spirits thats also additional life force for just him summoning the spirts i dont know why thats a thing but it is) In the past people use to treat spectral armor like a warriors berserker stance because thats how effective it use to be. They simply avoided the necromancer till the armor effect expired to prevent giving them tons of life force of corse unless it was 4 people jumping on them at the start of a match.

Weaver can swap to water press 1 skill or 2 and do a water combo and its back to 100% But how did you fail to kill a weaver as a 1 shot mes? That build has the power to one shot me when im playing builds that have 20k hp or more some times with toughness but some how a weaver with 11k-13k hp didnt die but you landed every skill??? You have no idea how suspect this sounds in practice.

The necro build you fought heals over a long period of time and sacrifices for the most part a massive chunk of its offensive power (as it should) for that defensive capability.

Considering i know the load out to the setup the healing can take a very long period of time and is weak to high burst damage but strong against damage over time. Even now with lower cooldown stunbreaks (which are being increased) and access to a stunbreak on shroud entry (which is being removed) should any +1 jump in on said necro it will die reasonably fast especially if any cc is involved with locking it down.

So i have to ask did you and the rev defeat necro in the end still? I am honestly curious.Were you condi Mirage or power one shot when you fought said necro?Was rev or herald power or renegade?

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:As a Necro main, I shall give the fairest judgement to this thread.

I agree that Necro shroud needs nerf in the coming balance. It is too tanky for its own good.

I might be inclined to agree with you after the patch drops only and we see how effective it is though if its effective but still dies quick enough any time multiple jump on it then its fine.

I suggest to remove its innate 50% damage reduction so it becomes a lot less tanky.

Out of your darn mind?Naturally life force generation would have to be massively increased for them to do this. At best they could reduce it to 33% or something down from 50% but removing it entirely would make reaper impossible to play with its higher lf cost when factored with incoming damage.Imaging having a profession that cant avoid damage but rather soaks it and giving it a shroud mechanic with a resource that is removed when it takes damage. Now think about having 12k shroud stored up and someone (let alone multiple people) slapping you for about 2-4k and your shroud vanishes immediately. before you can cast the majority of its slow skills.

However, we should be compensated by removing the shroud auto degeneration too and given a 7 seconds shroud cooldown.This is never going to happen.You are asking for a nerf with compensation to a profession that never gets both? This is not guardian lol. Its necro.As some one else said this kind of only fits your own agenda if they wanted to bring this kinda of stuff back they would have done it by now its clear that the shrouds entry standard has become 10s to allow for that down time to counter-play how powerful shroud actually is and im ok with that. Maybe if shorter shroud entry is one of reapers perks i would be ok with that because its a melee spec with higher cost upkeep but even then thats super questionable.

If you want a shroud flashing play style just play scourge, take a big shade, and dont summon your shades so all the skill go off around you its effectively the same thing.

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@"SPESHAL.9106" said:On an related note, some professions like mesmers don't even have a resource to manage

I don't want to change this thread into a mesmer-related one but mesmer and necro are the only classes whose class "energy" (illusions and shroud respectively) can be interacted.


A necro can refresh shroud so fast (traited) because there is no upper limit of how quickly it can be damaged. You can be focused by 5 power heralds or 1 support firebrand.

For a necro, they either have to go the sustain build with signets or the fear build. Fear build should be looked at for sure but I seriously can't imagine the signet build to become a good bunker. Sure it might be hard (or even impossible for most builds) to kill 1v1, but they can easily be outrotated right now.

I am still concerned about Terror, but that's a different topic.

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@ZDragon.3046there is alot of ways weaver can prevent the one shot, I wasn in no position to 1shot them.1 stack of stab and you cant do it anymore most of the time ( + weavers dont have 11-13k hp they up it with amulets )protection and you cant do it anymore.I started with sword becouse I was locked to it, immob from s3->blurred with mind spike -> 2 clone f1.after healing he got overheal barrier and prot, and now I dont even have F3.+im using slightly changed 1shot mes build eagle instead of scholar+ different sigils.it doesnt peak dmg as much as scholars but it has more reliable crits and has more reliable damage over all.for me reliability outweighted possible biggest burst.when I go for burst against weaver I have to consider if its worth it, becouse if it doesnt work ( he has prot, unlucky no crits, weakness, stability, random dodge, or plain quick reflex on weaver ) and burst doesnt work, he heals to full and now its hunkered down.

Speaking of necro, I was on power 1shot, rev was classical shiro.I didnt go for burst but sustain dps it from range, when he got to low shroud I went for burst, he kited well, rev didnt do much, we dropped him to like 10% hp. He went full HP shroud and I had to disengage.blinked away, FB was dummy and didnt heal/cleanse me so I droppd low and ran into random thief and died.didnt see the end resoult but I suspect that1 rev died2 rev ran3 necro got down but rallied due to me dying to thiefAfter that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.mb necro could gain extra evade/block but lose some of its HP.instead of adding cast time to the fear they could make it similar to full counter but as a fear.shrug time will tell as always :D

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Jobe.8290 said:Bunker Core Necro is going to be unkillable :)

I already see 1 guy that plays menders + wells core necro and he is already labeled a bot due to the fact that he will undoubtedly push far at start of match and just sit on node. I’m surprised this isn’t meta already

Are you talking about me? Because I think you might be talking about me.

It is great drawing the 2/3v1 to you while your team still feeds mid. :)

Really, I say, Viva la revolucion! Because nothing else will after this patch.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:After that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.

Well I'm slightly worried people want something nerfed that might not need to be especially if we are not talking about hitting everyones profession resources in terms of nerfs at the same time.

As far as scrapper i dont think necromancer has the potential to do what scrapper could as it had a lot more going on using a lot of tools necromancer does not have access too in general. Having things like stability far more boons, reflects, blocks, a possible invuln etc. Scrapper was just mad strong and that was in the current meta or one similar to it while necro in the current meta is not that strong especially while running such a tank build other wise it would already be meta and thus have been subject to nerfs without anyone having said anything.

Anet is never going to give necro evades or blocks the community has been asking for them long before scourge because every other profession has them and anet still refused to do so because they hold necro to a standard of being slow and resilient without those things.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:After that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.

Well I'm slightly worried people want something nerfed that might not need to be especially if we are not talking about hitting everyones profession resources in terms of nerfs at the same time.

As far as scrapper i dont think necromancer has the potential to do what scrapper could as it had a lot more going on using a lot of tools necromancer does not have access too in general. Having things like stability far more boons, reflects, blocks, a possible invuln etc. Scrapper was just mad strong and that was in the current meta or one similar to it while necro in the current meta is not that strong especially while running such a tank build other wise it would already be meta and thus have been subject to nerfs without anyone having said anything.

Anet is never going to give necro evades or blocks the community has been asking for them long before scourge because every other profession has them and anet still refused to do so because they hold necro to a standard of being slow and resilient without those things.

its not about reflects blocks and all that jazz.it all came down to a few facts.1 nobody kills scrapper 1v12 nobody kills scrapper 2v1 unless scrapper is bad3 scrapper over the duration will decap you by knocking you back constantly

necro has same potential.bunker by having shit ton of raw HPspam weakness drains and other crap to stonewall any 1v1against 2v1 do bullshit voodo magic to regain the shrud and run to kite ( while kiting you can push people off with fears and hit them through walls to discourage them from following )and finally keep fearing from time to time to decap people off node.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:After that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.

Well I'm slightly worried people want something nerfed that might not need to be especially if we are not talking about hitting everyones profession resources in terms of nerfs at the same time.

As far as scrapper i dont think necromancer has the potential to do what scrapper could as it had a lot more going on using a lot of tools necromancer does not have access too in general. Having things like stability far more boons, reflects, blocks, a possible invuln etc. Scrapper was just mad strong and that was in the current meta or one similar to it while necro in the current meta is not that strong especially while running such a tank build other wise it would already be meta and thus have been subject to nerfs without anyone having said anything.

Anet is never going to give necro evades or blocks the community has been asking for them long before scourge because every other profession has them and anet still refused to do so because they hold necro to a standard of being slow and resilient without those things.

its not about reflects blocks and all that jazz.it all came down to a few facts.1 nobody kills scrapper 1v12 nobody kills scrapper 2v1 unless scrapper is bad3 scrapper over the duration will decap you by knocking you back constantly

necro has same potential.bunker by having kitten ton of raw HPspam weakness drains and other kitten to stonewall any 1v1against 2v1 do kitten voodo magic to regain the shrud and run to kite ( while kiting you can push people off with fears and hit them through walls to discourage them from following )and finally keep fearing from time to time to decap people off node.Core has one single stunbreak every 50s and no stability source. The heal has a 1,25s cast time. To interrupt that is the easiest thing in the world. Thief will be the hardcounter to necro more than ever before. Warriors, revenants and holos can constantly cc a core necro. A longbow ranger can push him off the node or just range kill him and recap the node.

It is quite easy to get a preview of what the patch does to carrion core necro in pvp if you go to wvw and build one with carrion stats + 30% damage reduction (that's the equivalent to the global damage reduction, achieveable for example with durability rune + toughness stacking sigil) and send it into smallscale. That build is food to every decent comp because you can shut it down so easy. You won't get off one single cast if two decent players are attacking you.

You can shut down a core necro on full soldier stat builds (ultra low damage!) with most classes - so much about broken sustain of core. I am really looking forward to fights against core necros on reaper. I will bait their only stunbreak and then chain stun them for 5 seconds with chilled to the bone and executioner scythe.

Btw.: the weakness duration is nerfed hard and the rest that is still present is easy to cleanse.

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@"lighter.2708" said:

@reikken.4961 said:wow tl;dr @ this discussion

Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

HP values and armor value aren't changed either....

See the difference between HP and death shroud is that HP doesn't refill by itself. You have to ... heal ... to refill your HP. Death shroud refills via life force. All healing was nerfed. Life force generation was not.

This is a clear necro buff. Whether or not this buff is warranted is another question. But it's unarguably a significant buff.

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@reikken.4961 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:

@reikken.4961 said:wow tl;dr @ this discussion

Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

HP values and armor value aren't changed either....

See the difference between HP and death shroud is that HP doesn't refill by itself. You have to ...
heal
... to refill your HP. Death shroud refills via life force. All healing was nerfed. Life force generation was not.

This is a clear necro buff. Whether or not this buff is warranted is another question. But it's unarguably a significant buff.

In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

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@"lighter.2708" said:In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the vampiric trait without forgeting vampiric ritual and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (well, signet, spectral and minions).

  • Well because vampiric ritual isn't touched.
  • Signet because signet of vampirism, signet of undeath, signet of suffering and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.
  • Spectral because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.
  • Minions because blood fiend's heal on hit and vampiric's heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like parasitic contagion or unholy sanctuary.

To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:After that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.

Well I'm slightly worried people want something nerfed that might not need to be especially if we are not talking about hitting everyones profession resources in terms of nerfs at the same time.

As far as scrapper i dont think necromancer has the potential to do what scrapper could as it had a lot more going on using a lot of tools necromancer does not have access too in general. Having things like stability far more boons, reflects, blocks, a possible invuln etc. Scrapper was just mad strong and that was in the current meta or one similar to it while necro in the current meta is not that strong especially while running such a tank build other wise it would already be meta and thus have been subject to nerfs without anyone having said anything.

Anet is never going to give necro evades or blocks the community has been asking for them long before scourge because every other profession has them and anet still refused to do so because they hold necro to a standard of being slow and resilient without those things.

its not about reflects blocks and all that jazz.it all came down to a few facts.1 nobody kills scrapper 1v12 nobody kills scrapper 2v1 unless scrapper is bad3 scrapper over the duration will decap you by knocking you back constantly

huh what? im pretty sure it is about those things those things are pretty important when used correctly.

Scrappers success was not from only knock backs as people have stunbreaks and stability for that. Its like making the assumption Trevor did that necro will just constantly be able to fear people off a point which is far from the truth of reality.

I dont agree considering i main necro and have also played all the other professions to some extent (some more than others) all of whom have some kind of damage ignoring tool, blocks, stealth, and or evades they make a massive difference in surviving and out right brawling in some cases. In some cases people wont even target you like they would a necro because on these other professions they know you have such tools to deny the damage or disengage

I just dont see necro being as effective as scrapper was especially considering the nerfs that are going to happy across the board to even necro itself. If it cant do it currently and a global damage nerf allows that to happen thats saying something about busted everyone else was in comparison to necromancer but no one will look at things this way.

necro has same potential.bunker by having kitten ton of raw HPAnd there is no problem with this considering it has no evades blocks etcThat said not everyone is going to fall into this play style but if it works and is viable without depending so heavily on boo corruption like right now im not sure thats a bad thing. Necro is going to have potential but just not as a bunker tank.spam weakness drains and other kitten to stonewall any 1v1Weakness is being nerfed tho so i dont really want to hear thisagainst 2v1 do kitten voodo magic to regain the shrud and run to kite ( while kiting you can push people off with fears and hit them through walls to discourage them from following )Im not sure if this is a real complaint or just a joke tbh

Regardless most points are not that big to allow that much kiting if you actually want to defend them especially if you have ranged pressure in your kit and can start doing heavy damage before you even reach the point or have constant sticky pressure in your melee build like spellbreaker has with all its movement skills and magebane. Fears are also not as plentiful as people think they are because they like go ignore how they are drenched in boons but then complain about necro fear without the understanding of stability converts to fear. Weavers atm are especially infamous for doing this and complaining about necro fear while spamming stances and splattering aoe condi without the concept that each stance grants stability which can be punished by only necro. It works for every other profession they fight and because necro can counter it it makes necro op. shrug

In a 2v1 ideally the necormancer should have 0 way of winning and should fall within a reasonable time frame (Assuming the 2 players know how to play) i dont think it would last any longer than any other profession that makes a tank / bunker build in a 2v1 it just feels different because rather than dodging / blocking hits like the other 8 professions this 1 profession cannot. It fees off to see your hits land and not kill something as quick as you expect it to be killed.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the
vampiric
trait without forgeting
vampiric ritual
and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (
well, signet, spectral
and
minions
).
  • Well
    because
    vampiric ritual
    isn't touched.
  • Signet
    because
    signet of vampirism
    ,
    signet of undeath
    ,
    signet of suffering
    and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.
  • Spectral
    because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.
  • Minions
    because
    blood fiend
    's heal on hit and
    vampiric
    's heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like
parasitic contagion
or
unholy sanctuary
.

To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

Its possible that necro was the base line they were aiming to drop everyone else down too but i wont say that 100% what they were going for without confirmation.

Spectral'sCertainly dont need any more reductions as unlike with other professions we dont have spectral mastery anymore while others still have their traits to reduce/improve their active utilities necro does not so they need to be-careful how much they scale those back unless they want to bring back such a trait. it would be very unjust for them to take those too far.MinonsFall into that "never used so really no need to touch" category.... There is likely not enough player data on them for them to determine how to balance them which means that they effectively cant tell what direction to take them to nerf or buff them. Though if they had to guess its likely that because almost no builds in pvp or wvw use them other than wurm that they took it as they needed a slight buff so they gave a few of them some QoL changes in the global notes.Wellsi do agree with most wells were not touched which is odd vamp ritual i think could stand to get a minor reduction maybe but i have not used this trait in a long time so i cant say how good it is now vs how good it will be in post patch. But the biggest complaint with wells was well of blood reviving players too fast which did see a nerf.SignetsI feel will be touched in the future but they saw no reason to touch them now or its the same as minions considering it was rare for any necromancer player to use them before the undeath change. (although i did) there is simply not enough data to really know if they needed a buff or a nerf so they left them alone. Undeath just got buffed so its unlikely to immediately be nerfed 1 patch later (i expect it to be nerfed back to 2% though in the future). Vamp signet actually requires you to get hit to get any benefit so im not sure that one needs to be touched. Locust signet needs to be looked at for sure i can see it being low key strong if you know when / how to use it post patch but at the movement damage is still to high for it to be viable. Chip damage would remove all the hp you could gain from it if you landed it on all 5 targets.The trait signets of suffering is ideally fine for the moment for what it does i dont think it needs any changes. If we see everyone else getting their traits that grant flat bonus stats reduced like power, healing power etc then SoS will need the according reductions in those areas too.

In short i think a lot of the things you pointed out where not touched either with good reason or because necromancer has been pushed into a corner with very minimal options it can take in its utility due to how everyone else developed in late HoT and PoF to the point that people dared not even bother trying to use them because having certain things is that critical to survival the moment anyone looked at you. Without proper data on how to take something they could over kill it making it even more unusable. I think for sure necro will be one of the professions seeing alot of nerfs in the patches after due to communitor uproar because it does better in lower damage meta but oh well. We will end up back where we were after enough time.

As far as reaper goes i dont think those need to be touched as they suffer from the core weakness of necro. Traits like blighters boon and soul eater will not work if the necromancer cannot attack. They completely depend on its ability to attack 100% of the time In other words if you hit it with cc it cant heal which wont be hard to do now with the overall stability reduction. I truthfully dont see many people using blighters boon till they fix reapers attack speed at a base level. Its mad slow for a game in the year of 2020 where everyone else is rather speedy swift and the damage output does not make up for the massive reduction in base attack speed.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the
vampiric
trait without forgeting
vampiric ritual
and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (
well, signet, spectral
and
minions
).
  • Well
    because
    vampiric ritual
    isn't touched.
  • Signet
    because
    signet of vampirism
    ,
    signet of undeath
    ,
    signet of suffering
    and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.
  • Spectral
    because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.
  • Minions
    because
    blood fiend
    's heal on hit and
    vampiric
    's heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like
parasitic contagion
or
unholy sanctuary
.

To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

First of all, how do people know if necro's sustain is not touched not enough? like literally, how do u know, did u play in test server to know or something. because not even the best player can know what the meta will shift to with the amount of changes that's happening.second of all, even if it is true, isn't it clear? necro is clearly very underperforming at the moment, even without this patch, they will either need to nerf other classes or buff necro anyway.

all these comments are pure speculation, even this speculation from pure guessing is true, it would still make sense for why they did it for how underperforming necro is right now, specially when pvp is plagued by rev, thief and mes and pew pew ranger

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@"ZDragon.3046"

I don't understand what you're not understanding about this.

  • Everyone's sustain factor is getting nerfed 33% or worse "Druid as example is getting CA skills cut by 50% again."
  • Necro Shroud functions are sustain, don't act like it isn't. None of this is being touched at all.
  • Life steal/heal is also direct sustain, and it works in shroud. None of this is being touched at all. Blood line will become powerful. Not only is the sustain point not being touched, but the damage that comes off life steal is also not being touched, and it will prove be very strong with multi strike attacks in the next meta, such as Axe 2 or a well or Life Transfer. There is no CD on that life steal damage/heal.

After 33% coefficient nerf, CD increases, massive loss in quick access/uptime, and hard CCs going to 0 damage, we'll be seeing about a 40% to 50% universal cut to DPS intra-class wide. After testing Core Necro specs and even Reaper/Scourge in the past 3-4 days myself, I can say that this cut in damage will easily push the sustain factor of any Necro through the roof. Furthermore its damage will become dangerous while using the blood line, when everyone else's sustain and damage is hit by 33%, but blood life steal/heal is untouched.

Oh and incase you are worried about "not having enough fear", discover Rune Of The Sunless. Summon Golem = Fear, right into Golem CC knockdown = Enormously powerful CC chain. And after the initial summon, each time you make the Golem Charge, he will fear the person first from a rather large radius, and then proceed to hit them with the follow knockdown. 45s CD, perfect for Golem Charge CD.

And this crap about "no stability/prot uptime" and "not enough stun breaks" is bologna. I was using Blood line with Well Heal for over saturated heal factor due to life siphon and the trait in Spite that also consumes conditions upon use. Not only is this an absurd amount of heal factor but it also grants protection. You use the Well that grants Stability and is a stun break, for even more life siphon & stab & stun break. Then you use Plague Signet to deal with your condis and grant another stun break. This is very powerful with Spite Sig Trait, super fast recharge for the stun break an the condi clearing. It's seriously all you need for condi clear if you know how to aim and use skills at the right time. Between Well that grants stun break & stab, and Plague Sig, that's all you need for stun breaks and stab. Then you can use the Sig of Undeath. Run Barbarian or Paladin Amulet, with Sunless or either Rune of Eagle or Rune of Speed as alternatives. You want to use Axe/Warhorn as primary weapon set, then the 2nd is optional. Of course you want to run Death Magic for the toughness stacking and power stacking. Spite/Death/Blood. <- This build is already strong as hell. After this patch, it'll be in contestation for sure as the dominant side node.

I don't think some of you people are recognizing how much damage rolls off of casting Warhorn 5 + Well Heal + Well of Stab + Go into Shroud and 4. Seriously, the sustain that comes of that is larger than the actual heal skill, and the damage is pretty equivalent to a Reaper spin to win 4.

I honestly believe some of these Necro players are pigeonholed into train of thought of "I must use these certain skills because that is always what has been good." Branch off and try new things. Some of this stuff will soon be busted in terms of sustain factor.

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