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Nerf Thief


mortrialus.3062

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:this is typical " dont touch my cheese " momentkeep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

do you srsl think its just mesmers?do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.nobody plays any condi for a reason, and overtuned cleansing is part of it THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:this is typical " dont touch my cheese " momentkeep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

do you srsl think its just mesmers?do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.nobody plays any condi for a reason, and overtuned cleansing is part of it THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.

How often do you get burned up by burn guard on your main?

A 1 condition build is supposed to be viable?

Maybe when they can drop a 5-8k burn on you and stow a cleanse on evading an attack doesnt help.

ZRzNRnD.png

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:this is typical " dont touch my cheese " momentkeep Escapist's Fortitude becouse " other classes cleanse tooooooo "

That's a fair rebuttal. I don't know why you're marketing it as not. He's right that you should be looking at condition cleanse across the entire class.It's largely mesmers that have a hangup with fortitude and that's because their condition application is so frequent that they cannot stop it. That's really not our fault, and in your efforts to balance that for yourselves you weaken daredevil vs other condi builds. I'm pretty sure this problem would evaporate if the bulk of mirage condi application was given to the main mesmer but that's an argument for another day.

I can understand that. That's why if you want to lessen the condi cleanse you need to increase the healing. I'd prefer that be on successful evade instead of tied to true dodge, also.

Otherwise I guarantee you nobody is going to run that trait. Most DDs will lean into marauders resilience and stealth, or brawlers tenacity.

do you srsl think its just mesmers?do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.nobody plays any condi for a reason, and overtuned cleansing is part of it THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.

How often do you get burned up by burn guard on your main?

A 1 condition build is supposed to be viable?

Maybe when they can drop a 5-8k burn on you and stow a cleanse on evading an attack doesnt help.

ZRzNRnD.png

oh no, i got attack by different enemy or got hit by a tick of random pulsing damage, would be shame If I removed 10k burning damage with my 1s cd trait.nooooo

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:do you srsl think its just mesmers?I said -largely mesmers.- As for why I think that, look at the consistent proponents for nerfing fortitude.do you think anyone will play burn guard when thief cleanses all their burn stacks every 1s for example lol.-people can and do play burnguard, but firebrand is easier so that is more visible.-nobody plays any condi for a reason-???

None of this is true. You main one of the classes that runs condi in the current meta. weavers also run condi in the current meta, and soulbeast has a sleeper condi build. You're reaching.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:THIS is part of overtuned cleansing.@Leonidrex.5649 ALSO said:oh no, i got attack by different enemy or got hit by a tick of random pulsing damage, would be shame If I removed 10k burning damage with my 1s cd trait.nooooo

10k is more than 85% of our base hp pool.Try again. You're only making me think I need it more now. Mocking being able to pull a condi off me that will kill me if it ticks twice by evading and then trying to label that as being overtuned isn't the best argument to make if you want to nerf it.

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Just compare thief and ranger shortbow. Thief shortbow have imob on stealth atack bouncing aa, 2 which can work on power and condi, 3 can be spammed evade, 4 even gets unblockable cc like it wasn t enough utility (increase in count was not nerf since its cc at landing now) and finally 5 for epic mobility. Thief shortbow works with condi and power and is must pick except you are de. Now ranger which should be able to have atleast condi variant with shortbow viable doesn t get it. Very poor condi dmg, no power dmg almost, skill 5 is bad version of thief 4 on sb now after patch (yes it stuns so what when thief can interupt 4 times during we can interupt again). Instead giving ranger shortbow unblockable interupt with less duration but more active usage (used for interupt purpose not for stunclock) which i wait since start you give it to best utility weapon in this game thief shortbow. Its clear anet likes thief and have no idea of what to do with ranger shortbow which could bring balance in game if it was made as active interupt weapon. But yes ranger need swoop nerf for almost double the cd but yea thiefs mobility is fine and in line and smokescreen is also good because its okay that thief which hardest counter was ranged dmg is now not a threat aswell. Give thiefs more utility and maybe more stealth they rly lack utility and nerf shortbow for ranger its outperforming (tell me what is ranger with sb able to do vs smokescreen while its active beside swaping weapons). Thief will be able to interupt ranger block on gs 4 now instant making it stupid to use vs thief even though it needed nerf in cd and is fine now. What is not fine is unblockable aoe cc (can be casted pretty often even with initiative cost raised) while ranger shortbow is still forgotten. Now tell me thief need unblockable cc on top of already op weapon more than ranger needs it on dead weapon which doesn t even work on condi builds. Thiefs have all tool to stay in meta forever and anet is even giving them new tools and when they are broken it takes half of the year to fix it and than give them new op skills like smokescreen to make them broken again (dp is cool build and very skillfull but right now there is not much counterplay it used to have back in days when it was balanced). So mobility (strongest tool in only pvp mode called conquest) and stealth (best defence mechanics in game used for offence aswell which is possible to keep perma effect) stays same for thief while ranger loose pet and gain swoop almost 2x longer cd nice balance i see who profits.Its just first balance but buff on thief sb 4 just doesn t make any sense. Maybe we see ranger sb being played in 2025 and thief geting nerfs in 2030 if it goes on like this because there is no real counter for thief mechanics in conquest and each balance split it even furher and make it untouchable in terms of utility.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

I don't really care for trait comparisons. Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.Same with sword 2, there is a reason no-port zones are scattered along all of the PvP maps. It might be a potent tool, but as with EF, it's situational. Etc, etc.

You say these things are unfair to play against... that's just a subjective opinion. Once the meta settles(and these traits/skills are still part of it), you'll be able to back up these complaints with actual statistics/anecdotes but right now it's hardly more than "I don't like thief was designed this way".

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

I don't really care for trait comparisons.Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.

No. It literally does not matter what the meta is and looks like. Some things on their face should not exist in the form they are in.

Take Evasive Mirror on Mesmer. It does not matter how good the rest of mesmer was at the time of the nerf. It doesn't matter if mesmer by design is supposed to be able to build itself to hard counter range. 2 seconds of mirror when a mesmer evades an attack on a 1 second internal cooldown was absolute madness. It needed to be nerfed. That's too much value against ranged builds, too freely and too passively.

As ridiculous as Evasive Mirror was against ranged builds with only a 1 second ICD, Escapist's Fortitude is for condition builds at only a 1 second ICD.

Even your example on it's face is ridiculous. For starters literally no condition build in the game can hit you so hard at full health that Withdraw to heal and remove cover conditions and Signet of Agility isn't going to save your life.

It's such passive, thoughtless sustain you don't even realize how much benefit cleanse, and sustain the skill gives you compared to other trait based cleanses over the course of a fight.

It puts any sort of condition build into a catch 22 where they need to attack you to kill you but any attempt to attack you risks retroactively negating the damage they already landed on you considering the sheer number of sources that can provide an evade that are all regenerating in the background: whether it's true Dodge rolls, initiative, their healing skill, a utility skill, or their elite skill.

No matter what you do you are at a disadvantage. There is no good option due to how passive this trait is combined with the overtuned cleanse capacity. You either stow weapons and thus don't kill the Daredevil or you keep attacking and don't kill the daredevil. It is text book unfair.

Same with sword 2, there is a reason no-port zones are scattered along all of the PvP maps. It might be a potent tool, but as with EF, it's situational. Etc, etc.

I am far from the only person to call out Infiltrator's Strike and Return as being problematic and needing adjustments. Even thief mains like Vallun have suggested significantly more radical nerfs than what I have suggested like removing 300 range from both parts of the skill.

Compare:

Death's Retreat:5 (Scheduled to soon be 6) InitiativeDamage: 127Poisoned (8s): 268 Damage, -33% Heal EffectivenessConditions Removed: 1Distance: 600

Infiltrator's Arrow6 InitiativeBlindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.Distance 900

Shadow Shot4 InitiativeDamage: 481Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.Range 900

Infiltrator's Strike and Return5 InitiativeDamage: 275Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement SpeedConditions Cleansed: 1Range: 900+1200 = 2100 Units of distance for 5 Initiative.

The initiative cost to distance traveled on Sword 2 is ridiculously out of line with other thief movement skills. It will always be ridiculous regardless of whatever meta is present. If you can do basic math you should be able to tell that at a glance.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

I don't really care for trait comparisons.Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.

No. It literally does not matter what the meta is and looks like. Some things on their face should not exist in the form they are in.

Take Evasive Mirror on Mesmer. It does not matter how good the rest of mesmer was at the time of the nerf. It doesn't matter if mesmer by design is supposed to be able to build itself to hard counter range. 2 seconds of mirror when a mesmer evades an attack on a 1 second internal cooldown was absolute madness. It needed to be nerfed. That's too much value against ranged builds, too freely and too passively.

As ridiculous as Evasive Mirror was against ranged builds with only a 1 second ICD, Escapist's Fortitude is for condition builds at only a 1 second ICD.

If you think Escapist Fortitude is in any way on the same level for condi builds as evasive mirror is for ranged builds, I have a bridge to sell you. Evasive Mirror was just an impenetrable brick wall for ranged builds. If the Mesmer had it, you better have Unblockable attacks or a way to gain unblockable attacks, or you just wouldnt hit the Mesmer. With Escapist Fortitude? Not even remotely. You can do the usual condi burst on an Escapist Fortitude thief, stow your weapon, and watch as he bleeds out with no way to stop your condi burst. Or hell, you can simply have cover condis, and suddenly Escapist fortitude does jack shit. There is a reason why even when thieves used it, condi builds were pretty much hard counters. The Trait didnt make them immune to condi builds, or even allow them to be evenly matched. It merely let them lose less hard.

Even your example on it's face is ridiculous. For starters literally no condition build in the game can hit you so hard at full health that Withdraw to heal and remove cover conditions and Signet of Agility isn't going to save your life.

It's such passive, thoughtless sustain you don't even realize how much benefit cleanse, and sustain the skill gives you compared to other trait based cleanses over the course of a fight.

It puts any sort of condition build into a catch 22 where they need to attack you to kill you but any attempt to attack you risks retroactively negating the damage they already landed on you considering the sheer number of sources that can provide an evade that are all regenerating in the background: whether it's true Dodge rolls, initiative, their healing skill, a utility skill, or their elite skill.

It really doesnt. Lets say youre a bursty kind of condition build. In that case you put your burst on them, and stow your weapon. Theyre either forced to burn Shadow Step to survive (which is an extremely valuable cooldown), or they die. And if they burn Shadow step, you just go with the next condi burst, and stow your weapon again. On the other hand, lets say youre the more sustained kind of condi build. In that case, you apply more than 1 different type of condi per second (usually 3). Even if the Thief managed to perfectly time the dodges that he always gets the Escapist fortitude trait procd off cooldown, it will fall far behind, and the thief will still die. As I said, it only lets them lose less hard vs condi builds. If they ever win vs a condi build, its against Mesmer, and thanks to Consume Ectoplasm, and the Resistance it gives.

No matter what you do you are at a disadvantage. There is no good option due to how passive this trait is combined with the overtuned cleanse capacity. You either stow weapons and thus don't kill the Daredevil or you keep attacking and don't kill the daredevil. It is text book unfair.

There are only good options. Either youre a burst build, stop weapons and thus definitely kill the Daredevil, or youre a sustained damage build and the trait is more than insufficient to deal with the sheer condition output you have. Its anything but textbook unfair, which is also why its pretty much never been used, even while Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed. It simply wasnt good enough.

Same with sword 2, there is a reason no-port zones are scattered along all of the PvP maps. It might be a potent tool, but as with EF, it's situational. Etc, etc.

I am far from the only person to call out Infiltrator's Strike and Return as being problematic and needing adjustments. Even thief mains like Vallun have suggested significantly more radical nerfs than what I have suggested like removing 300 range from both parts of the skill.

Compare:

Death's Retreat:5 (Scheduled to soon be 6) InitiativeDamage: 127Poisoned (8s): 268 Damage, -33% Heal EffectivenessConditions Removed: 1Distance: 600

Infiltrator's Arrow6 InitiativeBlindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.Distance 900

Shadow Shot4 InitiativeDamage: 481Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.Range 900

Infiltrator's Strike and Return5 InitiativeDamage: 275Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement SpeedConditions Cleansed: 1Range: 900+1200 =
2100 Units of distance for 5 Initiative.

The initiative cost to distance traveled on Sword 2 is ridiculously out of line with other thief movement skills. It will always be ridiculous regardless of whatever meta is present. If you can do basic math you should be able to tell that at a glance.

Not all distance travelled is equal. Infiltrators Strike can only move towards a targetted enemy, which already puts it out of competition of shortbow 5 (which remains the skill that defines thief in PvP). And even Deaths Retreat (which is frankly a garbage skill, but I digress). The only actual comparision is Shadow Shot. Which is kind of a problem, because (especially with the incoming random nerf), Shadow Shot hasnt been a very good skill in a while. Even so, the difference between the 2 is that Shadow Shot allows to continously stick to an enemy, while Infiltrators Strike forces you to go back to the old position if you want to use it again. Something that is very easy for an enemy to abuse in their favour. With your suggestion, people would be even further disincentivised to use Infiltrators Return. Best case scenario, people only use Infiltrators Strike, and never the follow up skill, using it as a bad 1-time Shadow Shot.

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Becareful what u wish ... I think this was mentioned not only one time in the nerf teef meme... steal teef everything what "U" think is op and give moar from the other classes, block spam, aegis spam, condi spam, boon spam, ultra damage, ultra bunker, ultra aoe destroyer, perma xy, ultra abc, "bambi" ... and say hello to the beast that will eat u alive ... from +1 and decap to an on point in teamfight killing machine...

Teef is +1 and cap ... not a duellist (dont waste time with sp or staff) not a teamfigher ... not a bunker not a sup not a Multitalent...

It is just a teef, if played well with high focus on map/Rotation/ what to fight and what not, on top of over average skill compared to other classes (button smashes will not help u) can be succesfull and carry games, if team not sucks ?

Lets w8 for the patch

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:I love how people are already arguing over the post-patch balance. Nobody knows how the new meta will settle, therefore asking for nerfs/buffs is pointless at the moment. OP you made this post a few weeks early.

Obviously no one will no for sure how the balance patch will play out but I picked the four skills+traits very careful as they're both unfair to play against.

Infiltrator's Strike and Return have been a sore spot for literally years now. Sword thieves have functionally unlimited capacity to hit and run.

When you compared Escapist's Fortitude even with the 1s ICD and taking into account realistic levels of evades daredevil has access to this trait is providing over twice as much potential cleanses as even Brawler's Recovery which was the best condition cleansing trait I listed. I don't see how you can argue it isn't over tuned in terms of it's capacity to cleanse conditions.

I draw a direct comparison between Smoke Screen and Wall of Reflection and Feedback. And while it's true reflection is superior to simple projectile destruction, Smoke Screen is also a massive long duration blinding field. You either have unblockable, resistance, or you melee attack faster than the 1s pulsing blind. If you don't have these things Smoke Screen practically functions as an invulnerability field to a lot of builds. How hard it counters both ranged and melee attacks should require the skill to have a significantly cooldown. Not to the point of destroying the skill but an additional +5 or +10 to what it's currently scheduled to receive.

Leeching Venoms is my vote for the lowest priority, hence why it was listed last. But power builds can use the trait to add 2k additional damage in a fraction of a second without having to take a single venom skill.

I think regardless of the environment these skills and traits are unfair, are currently unfair pre-balance patch and regardless of how the meta shakes out and if thief ends up really good or really bad, these aspects of thief are still too unfair.

I don't really care for trait comparisons.Different classes excel at different things, so traits with similar funcionality vary in strenght. What matters is how well a build can fullfill a role. If a build is clearly overperforming in a role, thats where nerfing comes in. You have no idea how thief(or anything for that matter) will perform in the new meta, but thats a prerequisite for proposing new adjustments.

By the way, just for the sake of arguing: Escapist's Fortitude has the highest condition removal potential, but that's all that is, potential. If someone condiblasts your thief (condi revenant opener, mirage gets you from stealth etc.), then proceeds to not attack you for a few seconds, good luck! You're burning your evades in hope of getting some sustain from it, but the condis are ticking away eating at your healthbar. As much as it's broken while teamfighting with a staff build. it's entirely useless if you 1v1 a decent player.

Take Evasive Mirror on Mesmer. It does not matter how good the rest of mesmer was at the time of the nerf. It doesn't matter if mesmer by design is supposed to be able to build itself to hard counter range. 2 seconds of mirror when a mesmer evades an attack on a 1 second internal cooldown was absolute madness. It needed to be nerfed. That's too much value against ranged builds, too freely and too passively.

As ridiculous as Evasive Mirror was against ranged builds with only a 1 second ICD, Escapist's Fortitude is for condition builds at only a 1 second ICD.

Even your example on it's face is ridiculous. For starters literally no condition build in the game can hit you so hard at full health that Withdraw to heal and remove cover conditions and Signet of Agility isn't going to save your life.

So Escapist's Fortitude is OP because of other condition cleanses. Got it. I mean I don't... but I pretend that it makes sense. Let's move on!

It's such passive, thoughtless sustain you don't even realize how much benefit cleanse, and sustain the skill gives you compared to other trait based cleanses over the course of a fight.

blablabla I cut what im not answering to.

Compare:

Death's Retreat:5 (Scheduled to soon be 6) InitiativeDamage: 127Poisoned (8s): 268 Damage, -33% Heal EffectivenessConditions Removed: 1Distance: 600

Infiltrator's Arrow6 InitiativeBlindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.Distance 900

Shadow Shot4 InitiativeDamage: 481Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.Range 900

Infiltrator's Strike and Return5 InitiativeDamage: 275Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.Swiftness (3s): 33% Movement SpeedConditions Cleansed: 1Range: 900+1200 = 2100 Units of distance for 5 Initiative.

The initiative cost to distance traveled on Sword 2 is ridiculously out of line with other thief movement skills. It will always be ridiculous regardless of whatever meta is present. If you can do basic math you should be able to tell that at a glance.

You are doing it again! Comparing things on paper, out of context. Maybe because you take into account what these skills are for, it turns into a comparison of apples to oranges?IS&R and SS are useless out of combat, while DR and IA are pure mobility skills. So skills with different purpose&function are balanced differently... what a coincidence! Also this "2100 distance traveled for 5 initative" has the dishonesty of an election campaign ad, does a good job at making the skill you don't like look really really powerful. Even if the skill was cut down to 600-600, people could still whine about thief having infinite disengage potential, there would be people posting how 1200 distance traveled is more then 900 range on Infiltrator's Arrow, yet IA costing 1 more initative(even though a 600/600 IS&R would be borderline useless for anything that's not a condithief)AFTER the balance patch hits, you can show me how builds utilising these skills/traits are consistently overperforming, and I'll give you my blessing to campaign for their rework/yeeting out of the Solar System(yes I'm pretty confident this won't happen).

By the way these are all traits and weapon skills I'm not even using. I'm not protecting my precious little main, just trying to make the point that calling for nerfs right before the already finalised patch hits is pointless. The next patch will likely only arrive after the next pvp season, and I doubt they will look at threads made in early february when deciding what to do for the may/june update.I left your first sentence last, it almost made me not answer at all:

No. It literally does not matter what the meta is and looks like. Some things on their face should not exist in the form they are in.

So if you don't like something, you nerf it to kitten regardless of how it performs in the meta. That's not something I could even consider doing, but each to his own... Have fun nerfing thief!

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@"PLS.4095" said:Perma stealth is actually the problem and it's actually nerf in the new patch.Others are just qq and L2P issu.

yet Thief Professional Players says otherwise. In fact, there are other ways to Perma Stealth that aren't being addressed in the new patch. In other word, we are being given half-truth to our faces...

Utc1lew.jpg

-nothing more to add

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@Bazsi.2734 said:So if you don't like something, you nerf it to kitten regardless of how it performs in the meta. That's not something I could even consider doing, but each to his own... Have fun nerfing thief!

If there was a build that the only thing it could do was stand in base and every minute it would randomly select a player on the enemy team and fully kill them this build would both probably never be able to break Gold 2-3 but this build would still not deserve to exist. It wouldn't be meta, but it would be unfair and unhealthy. Somethings can be unhealthy without being good.

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@Bazsi.2734 use your scull mate.nerfing teleport range makes a big difference.sword 2 is toxic becouse thief can keep recasting it while having port back in safe spot ( behind walls/pillars ).reducing its range would remove ALOT of spots like that, is there even a single node on the map, where you cant jump on to with s2 while hiding behind los?

Lets face it, permanent stealth should never be a thing. The fact that thief can get like 80%+ stealth uptime just by having pistol shortbow and smoke is crazy to me.maybe smoke field blast should give 2s stealth instead of 3 when already stealthed, kinda tired of 2 thiefs vs 2 thiefs both permastealthing entire team at the start and just afking on mid waiting for someone to get bored and leave stealth

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Bazsi.2734 use your scull mate.nerfing teleport range makes a big difference.sword 2 is toxic becouse thief can keep recasting it while having port back in safe spot ( behind walls/pillars ).reducing its range would remove ALOT of spots like that, is there even a single node on the map, where you cant jump on to with s2 while hiding behind los?

Lets face it, permanent stealth should never be a thing. The fact that thief can get like 80%+ stealth uptime just by having pistol shortbow and smoke is crazy to me.maybe smoke field blast should give 2s stealth instead of 3 when already stealthed, kinda tired of 2 thiefs vs 2 thiefs both permastealthing entire team at the start and just afking on mid waiting for someone to get bored and leave stealth

Yeah, nerfing teleport range indeed makes a big difference. Convince me it's needed after the patch hits!

Lets face it, permastealth with the lowered damage will be fine. You can MAYBE oneshot berserker amulet guard/ele/thief and nothing else once the patch hits. Drawn out combat, more landed hits needed to secure a kill. Good luck doing that while camping stealth.

Also I'm all for nerfing smokescreen, the rework made it stupidly OP. Maybe it will need further toning down(I'm turning into a godforsaken parrot:), wElL sEe AftEr tHe PaTcH HiTs.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Bazsi.2734 use your scull mate.nerfing teleport range makes a big difference.sword 2 is toxic becouse thief can keep recasting it while having port back in safe spot ( behind walls/pillars ).reducing its range would remove ALOT of spots like that, is there even a single node on the map, where you cant jump on to with s2 while hiding behind los?

Lets face it, permanent stealth should never be a thing. The fact that thief can get like 80%+ stealth uptime just by having pistol shortbow and smoke is crazy to me.maybe smoke field blast should give 2s stealth instead of 3 when already stealthed, kinda tired of 2 thiefs vs 2 thiefs both permastealthing entire team at the start and just afking on mid waiting for someone to get bored and leave stealth

Yeah, nerfing teleport range indeed makes a big difference. Convince me it's needed after the patch hits!

Lets face it, permastealth with the lowered damage will be fine. You can MAYBE oneshot berserker amulet guard/ele/thief and nothing else once the patch hits. Drawn out combat, more landed hits needed to secure a kill. Good luck doing that while camping stealth.

Also I'm all for nerfing smokescreen, the rework made it stupidly OP. Maybe it will need further toning down(I'm turning into a godforsaken parrot:), wElL sEe AftEr tHe PaTcH HiTs.

d/p cant even 1shot now, when im paying attention I can react in time with blink/disort on glass cannon.doesnt change the fact that permastealth is stupid.My another concern is that mobility was brought down on alot of things but thief got it easy.thief has monopoly on it "shrug"people should pay close attention to thisoh and being able to 1shot from stealth or not doesnt change the fact that perma stealth is stupid.

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@"lighter.2708" said:tbh, should start with withdraw, low CD for on demand stealth proc for high backstab up time, easy break immob and no cast time...DP would be fine with hide in shadow

also yea i think escapist needs CD increase

Withdraw doesn't have stealth or a leap. It's just an evade. I find it annoying how uninterruptible it is, similar to why I've advocated for the Mirage heal to get an increased cast time. But right now it's scheduled for a cooldown increase up to 25 seconds up from 18 so that's a solid enough nerf.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:tbh, should start with withdraw, low CD for on demand stealth proc for high backstab up time, easy break immob and no cast time...DP would be fine with hide in shadow

also yea i think escapist needs CD increase

Withdraw doesn't have stealth or a leap. It's just an evade. I find it annoying how uninterruptible it is, similar to why I've advocated for the Mirage heal to get an increased cast time. But right now it's scheduled for a cooldown increase up to 25 seconds up from 18 so that's a solid enough nerf.

....there's a thing called shadow art that's kinda mandatory for D/P...why people commenting here without noticing how thieves disappear after withdraw...

without withdraw, D/P would be a lot less menacing offensively and defensively...also they should move some portion of assassin's signet power to deadly arts, so daredevil/shadow arts/trickery D/P wouldn't do as much damage for how surviving it can be...D/P should be kept in core...

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