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Increase swipe to 900 range (and you're awesome).


WillPaharu.4837

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@Shao.7236 said:@"UNOwen.7132" People statement aren't beliefs.

Once again failing to take in the information. Let me really simplify it for you.

Patch = Overall Damage nerf to //everyone//.

No skill nerf doesn't mean it was bad, because of the global changes that affects //everyone//.

Because the damage is enough for the changes = was well designed from the start and doesn't need changes, again not because it's bad, it's because a damage nerf is enough.

It's not rocket science.

Edit: You can't be part of the meta when the meta is in denial.

Actually, yes, those are beliefs. Also, is your counterexample to the meta to show yourself playing ... the meta weaver build? I must be missing something here. Because that makes no sense.

Again, you are rambling and I simply cant tell what youre trying to say. Lets see. Oh I see. So what youre trying to argue is that your build got damage nerfs, but no other changes, so it was supposedly well designed. Just to be clear, you are aware that almost everything only got damage nerfs, right? There isnt much that had its functionality changed, and most of the functionality changes were buffs. The logic also fails because Permastealth oneshot builds only got damage nerfs, and theyre anything but well designed.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its not using Daredevil. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

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@UNOwen.7132

You don't even know who's playing and you want me to take you seriously, not looking good.

No I don't play Weaver, it was the most lazy thing there is in the meta. Based on what I've said before you should /know/ what I do, it's clear you're not following.

No, everything got nerfed. Read the whole balance post, not just your own. Small hint: Amulets

There won't be such thing as a permastealth when there is an overall increase in cooldowns, calling on one shots is even more hilarious because it's almost as if you forgot the co-efficient changes as well.

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

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@Shao.7236 said:@"UNOwen.7132"

You don't even know who's playing and you want me to take you seriously, not looking good.

No I don't play Weaver, it was the most lazy thing there is in the meta. Based on what I've said before you should /know/ what I do, it's clear you're not following.

What you say is mostly incoherent rambling, its hard enough to follow the words themselves. Most I could gather is something about you being extremely elitist and having a hilariously warped sense of self.

No, everything got nerfed. Read the whole balance post, not just your own. Small hint: Amulets

There are a couple builds that didnt get nerfed, but I digress. The point however is, almost everything that got nerfed only got damage nerfs. Which makes your idea of "my build only got its damage nerfed so it must be well designed" nothing more than complete rubbish.

There won't be such thing as a permastealth when there is an overall increase in cooldowns, calling on one shots is even more hilarious because it's almost as if you forgot the co-efficient changes as well.

I mean there was no such thing as permastealth right now. There will however be the same style of "sneak up, and then burst". It got its damage nerfed, but let me remind you that your argument was that your builds were well designed because "They only got their damage nerfed".

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has 2 good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has
2
good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so wtf are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"UNOwen.7132"so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

thief has the biggest ammout of playable builds of any class, and I bet there is ALOT of "OK" builds like some weird dagger/dagger condi builds that could be made to work.they should focus on fixing poopy specs like scourge/druid/chrono instead of touching daredevil.DONT FIX WHATS NOT BROKEN

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has
2
good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

I mean youll see them same you see Rifle DEs, Pistol/Pistol Thieves or Grenade Engineers. Not everyone plays to win, after all. However, I should make a note here: Even if youre a glass cannon, you wont take 2k damage from Pulmonary Impact. Like, at all. Even a glass cannon build will fail to do more than 1.5k damage with Pulmonary Impact while targetting another glass cannon. And 1.5k for 4 initiative is pathetic. Youre legit better off spamming Shadow Shot or Heartseeker. Which is why you instead simply dont play D/P Thief with Pulmonary Impact. Its trash. Its so trash that even if it wasnt nerfed at all in this new balance patch, it would still be trash. Instead its getting nerfed by 50% when most things are getting nerfed by 33%, and Power Block, already a vastly superior trait despite its ICD, is not getting any damage nerf at all.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has
2
good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

I mean youll see them same you see Rifle DEs, Pistol/Pistol Thieves or Grenade Engineers. Not everyone plays to win, after all. However, I should make a note here: Even if youre a glass cannon, you wont take 2k damage from Pulmonary Impact. Like, at all. Even a glass cannon build will fail to do more than 1.5k damage with Pulmonary Impact while targetting another glass cannon. And 1.5k for 4 initiative is
pathetic
. Youre legit better off spamming Shadow Shot or Heartseeker. Which is why you instead simply dont play D/P Thief with Pulmonary Impact. Its trash. Its so trash that even if it wasnt nerfed at all in this new balance patch, it would still be trash. Instead its getting nerfed by 50% when most things are getting nerfed by 33%, and Power Block, already a
vastly
superior trait despite its ICD, is not getting any damage nerf at all.

Power block is GRANDMASTER trait.and you are missing the point, dealing that 2k damage is a BONUS, you dont interrupt to deal 2k dmg.you interrupt to interrupt, and if you have PI it also deals 2k dmg.same way nobody playing power mirage will waste F3 for example just to proc PB, you use CC to interrupt important skills like heals/transforms and the damage is a bonus.

https://imgur.com/k7qjPPz -> 1,8khttps://imgur.com/722T8aX -> 1,9kenemy low toughtness class ( ele ) no built in toughtness.important note -> 0 might stacks0 lead attack stacks0 vulnerability stacks

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full year after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

SA DP does not run Daredevil (what do you think it replaced with SA). Staff has been usable as a cheese build, but disappeared. S/D will never use Daredevil. It never used it, it will never use it, especially not with Swipe, far too big of a downgrade. In reality, Daredevil currently has 1 build, S/P, which is about to disappear. The rest are non-meta, at which point we could argue that Scrapper has 3 builds (all of which are non-meta but I digress).

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"UNOwen.7132"so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

Yah lol daredevil has lots of playable stuff. S/p, SA dp, condition thief, staff has been useable and I bet sd daredevil is gonna be big when they nerf s/p(though I already see it plenty often so maybe add that in too). Plz buff though guys

thief has the biggest ammout of playable builds of any class, and I bet there is ALOT of "OK" builds like some weird dagger/dagger condi builds that could be made to work.they should focus on fixing poopy specs like scourge/druid/chrono instead of touching daredevil.DONT FIX WHATS NOT BROKEN

Hardly. Thief has 2 playable builds, core SA D/P, and Daredevil S/P. Both of these are about to disappear, SA D/P as it relies on burst damage for +1ing, and with burst damage being lowered and us entering a condi meta, its not going to be viable, while S/P just is getting hit too hard. But even if they werent, thats 2 builds. On the other hand, Engineer has 3, Warrior has 3, Guardian has 3 (or 4, depends on how you seperate the 2 Firebrands). Like bloody hell, Ele has 2 like thieves. Ele. The black sheep of classes ever since Celestial D/D Ele lost its stranglehold on the meta.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@UNOwen.7132so your argument for having swipe buffed is that only P/W thief plays daredevil ?you realise that propably 50% specs dont even have 1 build?making DD swipe to 900 will turn it into gives everything trait. damage, mobility,healing,defence.i feel so bad for poor thiefs, they only have like 4 good builds. they need couple more

S/P thief, but yes. Thing is, with the incoming balance changes, S/P thief wont be a thing anymore either. Besides, other elite specs also not doing well isnt a reason not to help out Daredevil. The solution to that is to give the other elite specs some love too, not try and drag down DD out of spite. Also, we had DD with 1200 range steal. Spoiler: It wasnt played. The only build to have been using DD was D/P, and it only did because of Pulmonary Impact. Once that was nerfed into uselessness, they dropped it as well. Why do you think D/P right now doesnt play it? Making Swipe 900 range would simply be a start in rehabilitating a traitline long past its prime. Also, thief currently has
2
good builds, one of which is actively countering the other. I dont know why you think it has 4.

I see plenty D/P thiefs running "useless" 600 range swipe. with "useless" 2k dmg pulminary impacts.

I mean youll see them same you see Rifle DEs, Pistol/Pistol Thieves or Grenade Engineers. Not everyone plays to win, after all. However, I should make a note here: Even if youre a glass cannon, you wont take 2k damage from Pulmonary Impact. Like, at all. Even a glass cannon build will fail to do more than 1.5k damage with Pulmonary Impact while targetting another glass cannon. And 1.5k for 4 initiative is
pathetic
. Youre legit better off spamming Shadow Shot or Heartseeker. Which is why you instead simply dont play D/P Thief with Pulmonary Impact. Its trash. Its so trash that even if it wasnt nerfed at all in this new balance patch, it would still be trash. Instead its getting nerfed by 50% when most things are getting nerfed by 33%, and Power Block, already a
vastly
superior trait despite its ICD, is not getting any damage nerf at all.

Power block is GRANDMASTER trait.and you are missing the point, dealing that 2k damage is a BONUS, you dont interrupt to deal 2k dmg.you interrupt to interrupt, and if you have PI it also deals 2k dmg.same way nobody playing power mirage will waste F3 for example just to proc PB, you use CC to interrupt important skills like heals/transforms and the damage is a bonus.

-> 1,8k
-> 1,9kenemy low toughtness class ( ele ) no built in toughtness.important note -> 0 might stacks0 lead attack stacks0 vulnerability stacks

Grandmaster traits are not supposed to be better than master or adept traits. Theyre supposed to be flashier and more complicated, but not better. So that argument is already out. And Im afraid you are missing the point of the build. No, the damage isnt a bonus. Its literally the point. Your example fails on the one, very important aspect. When Mesmer uses F3, they dont put all of their weapon skills on cooldown, or lower their damage. When the Thief uses Headshot, he uses up the very resource he needs to do damage. Thats why, without Pulmonary Impact, noone ever used Headshot unless they were in literally the worst possible situations. Its also why in S/P Thief, you basically never want to use Headshot. It just kills your damage. Pulmonary Impact needs to do actual damage or the build is useless. Currently it doesnt. The build is useless.

We were talking D/P. Not S/P. They have different weapon Strength, with Sword having higher weapon strength (which basically means slightly more damage). Im also curious why you say "0 lead attack stacks", while the second picture (the one with 1.9k damage) shows you having 8 lead attack stacks. And the first one, while taken after the lead attack stacks ran out, clearly did the damage while lead attack was still active (since youre using Trickery, and used Headshot to activate Pulmonary Impact). Still, even if we ignore that (we shouldnt, but for the sake of argument, lets), thats 2k damage for 4 initiative. That is nothing. Youre better off just using Shadow Shot, which does somewhere around 3 times the damage, for the same amount of initiative, with the same hit denial on most skills. And the added bonus of being a shadow step.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time. https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99468&oldid=99354Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100764&oldid=100763. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time.
Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one:
. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time.
Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one:
. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was never the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=99541&oldid=99540

Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Theft with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/index.php?title=Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition&diff=100916&oldid=100915

Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

Edit: Links dont work, not sure why. Just copypaste it in the browser.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

@Shao.7236 said:Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:
  • Steal 3 Boons
  • Interrupt
  • Unblockable
  • Instant castWhich easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost
never
interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

Swipe is one reason some daredevil came back. For one trickster was way better on condition thief in this meta and swipe made it go through aegis. Also it was way better on sword builds that don’t need 1200 range, plus 1 lower cd. Also all the above have great synchronicity with acro etc. I do feel really bad for stuff like do that rely on mobility much more and for anyone that wanted to play dash/dp builds it was a huge/ giant let down, but dp is actually pretty good in this meta for bursting and unblockable steal can also benefit ppl trying to backstab, it just kind of ruined the feel for most.Anyways 900 range might definitely fix the feel for most ppl who wanna dp or pp, actually basically anything that stealth stacks, but do we need to ask if this would be too strong? Idk maybe we would

Given that Swipe made Daredevil disappear alltogether, and given the fact that it took until the cd buff for Daredevil to see any major amount of play (besides the brief condi stint when Deadly Ambition was overtuned), thats highly doubtful. Trickster wasnt actually better, as Condi Thief did not actually run a lot of tricks (they ran Withdraw and Roll for Initiative, and that was it). It was not significant enough to be picked. Though even if it was picked, there isnt enough Aegis for the buff to matter either. And yes, D/P is currently fine (though post balance changes itll be unplayable), but importantly, its
not using Daredevil
. Daredevil D/P is dead. Buried alongside Pulmonary Impact, a trait that was already overnerfed to hell, and that they plan to nerf even harder, to ensure that noone will ever pick it again.

What are u talking about daredevil still hasn’t disappeared and trickster was meta on condition thief, cuz for 1 just taking that gave u a 100% winning mu into other condition thief’s and mesmers. Swipe is a trade off which when playing something’s like sword builds is perfectly fine which is why daredevil sees lots of plays. U seem to be fussing about core dp being meta but daredevil is fine, we would actually see lots of it in the mat if it was for the fact that double DA thief is the hardest s/p counter in the game which I’m pretty sure I was the first one to point out on the forums while every was asking for s/p nerfs. So no daredevil hasn’t disappeared it’s perfectly fine it’s just countered by a now common comp involving other thief builds, which is irrelevant to this convo because it doesn’t use swipe

Well as I said, it got a cd buff, thats why it reappeared. And no, Condi thief still ran Bountiful theft. A boonrip is far more valuable than 1 condi cleanse every 20 seconds. And hell, vs Mesmer Consume Plasma is more than sufficient to have a winning MU. Daredevil hardly sees "lots of play". It sees play as part of the PW build, and thats about it. Even in that build, Swipe is a major downgrade, but not to the point of not being worth picking. And the point is that D/P was a Daredevil build for ages. It was focused on the Daredevil traitline. And it got nerfed so hard that it was already unviable, and the Swipe nerf made sure it would never return. Daredevil D/P, alongside most Daredevil builds, disappeared. And with the upcoming changes, it will be even worse off. I wouldnt be surprised if the D/P weaponset straight up becomes a troll weaponset on the level of P/P now.

From what I remember I was only condition thief playing in plat3-legend besides a few other and we all played trickster and it was also marked as meta on metabattle and it gave huge amounts of condition clear as you actually take 3 tricks which are basically spammed- so kitten are u going on about no one played bountiful theft in this meta becuz it was Garbo on condition thief.A lowered cd again is another trade off that makes it slightly better when u can play it. But again daredevil did not disappear- you are 100% wrong here bending the truth again. When swipe got added dagger/pistol builds started to disappear, but sword builds took their place. “O but it got a slight cd buff” bs the real reason we started seeing more meta builds on daredevil had nothing to do with that- it’s actually because Deadly arts got nerfed so now things like condition thief and acro DrD could ezily replace them.

Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and ..... uh, what the hell third trick were you running? I mean, Daggerstorm I guess, but the condi clear is pretty irrelevant when youre using Daggerstorm. Outside of that, the others are just bad. And yes, metabattle has shown the condi build(s). However, all ran Bountiful Theft, and Trickster was only shown as an "alternative choice", which usually means "its worse, but some people swear by it". And Im not sure how youre planning to "spam" abilities with cooldowns of over 30 seconds.

Of course Daredevil disappeared. Until S/P thief (which appeared last month, nearly a full
year
after the Swipe change), the only other Sword-based build that saw any play was condi thief. Which only saw play because Deadly Ambition was overnerfed. Even in that build, Swipe was a massive downgrade. The CD buff is the only reason we saw Daredevil resurface. Sword builds werent a thing until that change outside of condi builds which, again, came to be because of Deadly Ambition.

Again this is like the 3rd time you claim stuff that’s totally false. When condition thief became meta, even on metabattle trickster was the only thing listed, bountiful theft wasn’t even considered an alternate option. But hey let’s ignore the meta and just pretend it’s what you want it to be. And here u are claiming s/p only saw use because of condition thief nerfs but somehow that’s link to recharged cd. But hey let’s make a false argument and contradict our selves on the forums, this real good material for all of us

Of course, I guess youll stick to your story. Lets take a look then, shall we? After all, the Metabattle site does let you look into the history of any given page. So, it became meta when they reworked Trappers Respite to Deadly Ambition. That was July 16th of last year. Lets take a look at a page around that time.
Would you look at that. Only mentions Bountiful Theft. Trickster is not even mentioned as an alternative. There are a bunch of August Pages but spoiler: Theyre the same. Lets skip ahead to October. Same thing for the most part.

Except, for a brief moment, it did suggest Trickster as the main one and Bountiful Theft as an alternative, in this one:
. Maybe this is what you saw. Tiny issue, this change was rolled back, the user who made it apparently banned (not sure on this one, their user page no longer exists, but it could mean either a ban or they deleted it themselves) and the page was changed to only be editted by Administrators. Seems like it an unauthorised edit that was so wrong it got the administrator to take over.

So yeah, Trickster was only a variant, not the main one.

Your story is full of holes at that time you claimed it to be meta it was in the gold category and later was moved to platinum when ppl realized it was op. It only became meta when trickster was the main one. And btw the only reason it moved to not being a trickster meta was becuz ppl started playing staff instead. So yes your argument is completely false and you are contradicting yourself.I suggest we all ignore this obvious troll

The only story full of holes is yours. "It only became meta when trickster was the main one", yet metabattle pretty clearly stated that trickster was
never
the main one. As I said, that was a third party edit that was undone within days and presumably got the user responsible banned. You are right that the July version was in gold, because it hadnt been changed yet. But let me give you an August one:
Oh, whats that? Its in Platinum? And it shows only bountiful Thef with Trickster not even being mentioned as a Variant? Shocking, I know. How about this one from October, days after the third-party edit:
Rated meta. No Trickster in Sight. So, still willing to stick to your debunked story?

Dude like I said they only changed it to that when staff thief came into meta and later added it back, again your arguement is full of holes. Just look at it now it says trickster is great especially for whenever you are using withdraw and roll for initiative which is listed as the most popular option.You are literally speculating while I’m telling actually what happened as someone who was invested in making condition thief metaEdit: for clarification, it is the moderators who deem the builds to be meta and if trickster wasn’t ok then they wouldn’t have made it meta. Which is another reason your story is full of holes

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